Russian Team for 2013 Euros and Worlds

[haribobo]

Sotnikova and Tuktamysheva have had 2 years of experience on senior GP and tons of junior experience as well. I cannot fathom how someone could have any doubts about their experience at this point. And they medaled at Nationals, so it would be crazy not to send them to Euros and Worlds. Now, Gosviani has very little experience, but so far she's already made the World SP minimum on her first try. If she makes the FS minimum at this comp, (which of course is not a given, but we'll see), she will have done in one try what Makarova and Lacoste haven't been able to do in many, many tries. If she does so, that should put to rest any questions about her worthiness, at least until Euros. If she bombs at Euros, then fine, send Leonova to Worlds. But if Nikol goes top 6 at Euros, I would keep her on the World team.

Also, I take issue with the statement that Korobeinikova is on an upward curve. She's a very nice skater but her trajectory this season is down from last season, if anything. She wasn't among the top 5 age-eligible skaters at Nationals, so its very hard to imagine her making another team, despite her talents.

[hanca]

Mmmm. So it is now official that Nicol Gosviani has got into the team for Europeans.

I have to admit, I was impressed by Nicol’s performance at the Russian Nationals. But, not to the extent to put her in the Russian team.

You have to ask – in the year before hosting the Olympics, is it wise for Russia to send a team of THREE ROOKIES to the Europeans and/or the Worlds?! You would have thought they would have had at least one skater on the team that had experience of a major tournament.

As I said before, I would have picked Korobeynikova. OK, so Polina is not much older than Adelina and Liza, and she is not as good as Alena and Ksenia are when they are at their best. But, at least she has one year of experience at both tournaments under her belt (as opposed to Adelina, Liza and Nicol, who have none), and she is on the upward curve (whereas Alena and Ksenia are on the downward curve).

But, good luck to Nicol. I hope she surprises all the doubters!

CaroLiza_fan

That would be even more funny decision. As much as I love Polina K, the argument that she is more experienced that Adelina and Liza will not hold. The bottom line is that she was born the same year as Adelina, Liza and Nicol, so not only that she would be that much older than them (just a few months), but if your reason for adding her on the team is her experience, I would say that Adelina and Liza are as experienced as Polina K is. It is true that Polina K skated at one Euros and Worlds, but then again Liza and Adelina did senior GP events last season which Polina K didn't and they both have experience at winning medals at junior worlds which Polina K doesn't. Polina K's best result would be bronze at JGP and 4th at Europeans. So I think their experience would be very comparable.

[CaroLiza_fan]

Sotnikova and Tuktamysheva have had 2 years of experience on senior GP and tons of junior experience as well. I cannot fathom how someone could have any doubts about their experience at this point. And they medaled at Nationals, so it would be crazy not to send them to Euros and Worlds. Now, Gosviani has very little experience, but so far she's already made the World SP minimum on her first try. If she makes the FS minimum at this comp, (which of course is not a given, but we'll see), she will have done in one try what Makarova and Lacoste haven't been able to do in many, many tries. If she does so, that should put to rest any questions about her worthiness, at least until Euros. If she bombs at Euros, then fine, send Leonova to Worlds. But if Nikol goes top 6 at Euros, I would keep her on the World team.

Also, I take issue with the statement that Korobeinikova is on an upward curve. She's a very nice skater but her trajectory this season is down from last season, if anything. She wasn't among the top 5 age-eligible skaters at Nationals, so its very hard to imagine her making another team, despite her talents.

That would be even more funny decision. As much as I love Polina K, the argument that she is more experienced that Adelina and Liza will not hold. The bottom line is that she was born the same year as Adelina, Liza and Nicol, so not only that she would be that much older than them (just a few months), but if your reason for adding her on the team is her experience, I would say that Adelina and Liza are as experienced as Polina K is. It is true that Polina K skated at one Euros and Worlds, but then again Liza and Adelina did senior GP events last season which Polina K didn't and they both have experience at winning medals at junior worlds which Polina K doesn't. Polina K's best result would be bronze at JGP and 4th at Europeans. So I think their experience would be very comparable.

Erm, could you please read my last comment again, but this time in more detail.

I did not say that Adelina and Liza lacked experience. For goodness sake, they have both been immensely successful in recent years at both Junior and Senior level. What I said was that they lacked experience in MAJOR TOURNAMENTS. There is a difference.

Yes, Adelina and Liza now have a couple of years of the Senior GP Series under their belt. And they have been very successful both years. But, however much I like the Grands Prix, you can’t possibly put them in the same bracket as the European or World Championship. Hence, why I said “experience of a major tournament” in my previous comment.

Similarly, Adelina and Liza have both had been on the podium in the Junior versions of the major tournaments (Junior Europeans, Junior Worlds and the Youth Olympics). But, although these tournaments are important to fans like us, casual viewers who come in just for the major tournaments don’t pay any attention to them.

And I certainly did not say to NOT pick Adelina and Liza. They were my first 2 choices to get onto the 2013 team right from the 2011 GP Series. It was just a matter of who was going to join them. And I still think Korobeynikova was the best bet, given the problems Leonova and Makarova are having.

Yes, Polina finished lower than Alena and Ksenia on both the GP rankings and at Russian Nationals. But, at the GP’s, all 3 skaters got the same positions in their 2 appearances (a 6th and a 7th), and on each of the tie-breaks, there was one score well ahead and 2 very similar ( http://www.isuresults.com/events/gp2012/gpsladies.htm ). But it was not the same girl each time.

As for Russian Nationals, yes Polina only finished in 10th overall, whereas Alena finished 7th and Ksenia finished 8th. But, just remember how the results looked after the Short Program: Polina was 4th, Alena was 6th and Ksenia was 12th.

It was a very disappointing Free Skate (including a fall) that was what dropped Polina down the order. But, Alena and Ksenia were not that impressive in their FS either (Alena had 2 falls). So, although Polina lost ground to them by coming 11th in the FS, Alena could only manage 8th and Ksenia 7th in the FS.

In summary, when you look at the programme results as separate entities, Polina had 1 very good routine and 1 bad routine. Alena and Ksenia both had 2 average routines.

So, given the lack of form so far this year from Alena and Ksenia, and the fact that Polina did better than both of them at last year’s Europeans (with 4th, as opposed to 7th for Alena and 6th for Ksenia), that is why I was picking her as the 3rd skater for the team.

And, although I didn’t say it in either of my previous comments, I was leaving the team open for revision between the Europeans and the Worlds. After all, the normal scenario from the past few years is that Alena doesn’t do well at Europeans, but then does very well at World’s.

So, if Polina had been disappointing at Europeans, I would have had no problem with considering dropping her and letting Alena go to the Worlds instead. And the same now applies for Nicol.

So, before you start giving off about something that you think somebody has said, it might be a good idea to check that they have actually said what you are objecting to.

CaroLiza_fan

[haribobo]

That's all fine and acceptable, and I fully understood your point, but where we fundamentally disagree is that Liza and Adelina are considered rookies on the world stage. Although they've never been to a Euros or Worlds, they've been to everything else but, and done very well in general. Nobody so far has said Nikol is going to Worlds, not that I'd have a problem with it if she does well at Euros. And here's the thing- as soon as Euros happens and potentially 2 Russians end up on the podium, suddenly they aren't such rookies anymore. So they wouldn't be sending a bunch of no-names to Worlds, even if Gosviani was on the team. And at least one of Tut or Sot would've made it to Euros and maybe Worlds *last* year had they been old enough. So one of the purposes of Euros 2013 for Russia is a resume builder. All 3 of them need this- and have earned it with good placements at Nationals. I just don't get the point of digging down to 10th place at Nationals when there's a perfectly good Nikol right there ready to make a splash. I'm really dismayed at the way posters seem to be bending over backwards to find someone else mediocre to put on the team in her place, and I'm not just referring to CaroLiza_fan. We're all entitled to our opinions, that's fine, I just personally don't get this reasoning that skaters should be made to wait their turn even if they are beating the older ones. It's not how other sports work, and this isn't China. I personally think Russia will do just fine with their "three rookies," but maybe I'm just more of a gambler that way. I always like to see the underdog get a shot when they earn it. Furthermore, Alena, Ksenia, Polina, and Sofia all appear to need time to sort themselves out. They proved at Nationals that they aren't in Euros shape. I surmise that a test skate might be held for Alena before Worlds to see if she's skating any better than Nationals.

[Ziggy]

I did not say that Adelina and Liza lacked experience. For goodness sake, they have both been immensely successful in recent years at both Junior and Senior level. What I said was that they lacked experience in MAJOR TOURNAMENTS. There is a difference.

Huh? JGP, JGPF, Junior Worlds, GP, GPF. Lots of international competitions in general.

Oh so they didn't do Euros. But they did everything else and are very experienced at this point.

And I still think Korobeynikova was the best bet, given the problems Leonova and Makarova are having.

She has tanked Worlds and hasn't been skating well this season and placed below both Leonova and Makarova at Nationals.

Yes she is younger, has time to develop, etc. But that's all theoretical. She hasn't earned her spot this season.

[FSGMT]

http://fskating.com/2013/01/nikolai-...hovs-life.html
I think it's the first time that I agree with Morozov! This is especially correct:
“He should go to the junior Worlds and develop his skating. Where are we in such a hurry? And I’m not the only one who thinks so. Top coaches such as Alexei Mishin and Viktor Kudryavtsev voted against it (note: against the decision of coaching council). Maxim Kovtun nothing gained but Konstantin Menshov may have lost everything …”

[sky_fly20]

a bit off topic but glad Liza is continuing to shed a few pounds, she lost a lot in just a month !

her recent photos uploaded on vk

http://cs319318.userapi.com/v3193185...Kld9ZBHOcw.jpg
http://cs319318.userapi.com/v3193185...mg8xUTObKo.jpg

[let`s talk]

http://fskating.com/2013/01/nikolai-...hovs-life.html
I think it's the first time that I agree with Morozov!

Morozov has his own interests in this story and not necessary sportish ones. Kovtun is a tough guy for a coach and Morozov failed him. So Max was moved to CSKA where at first Buyanova and later TAT becamse his coaches. TAT is officially his coach, not some advisor. The situation changed and Max won GPF. Probably Morozov simply feels jealous. Second reason- Euros in Men can be quite lousy. Besides Plu and maybe Javi, all others can deliver quite meh skating. In this case Kovtun, if he skates clean (and angry, which he has the full reason to be after everything what happened), gets a chance for a bronze. That is not in the interest of both Morozov's pupils- Vornov and Amodio. As for his declamation of 'ruined life', he did the same thing to Miki's sport career just recently.

Menshov gave a very tochy interview to rsport.ru where he said that he feels pain and thinks that the whole story was really unfair to him. He said he had been having probably the best season in his career and was ready to medal in Zagreb. He expressed his gratitute to fellow skaters for the support and said he was happily surprised with their reaction. He didn't say anything specific about his future plans, just mentioned that now they (RusFed) want him to skate at Cup of Russia in Tver, but he did it a lot in the past and won 5 times in total, so he doesn't really believe that his skating there will change anything. He also said that the RusFed officials mentioned the possibility of him taking part in WTT in Tokyo this April (which also means that Russia, the same as last season, is not planning to send their top skaters to WTT ). Still, he didn't confirm anything and said that now he is thinking on his future plans.
http://rsport.ru/interview/20130111/639113406.html

[AlexRus]

Thanks for the correction-what I was getting at is that it is possible for a US skater to do badly in a preceding season and get a JGP berth, at least one.

In fact, in Russia look at first - how skater/couple is ready just before JGP Event.
And if not ready - no Event.

For example, Agafonova on results of previous season was second candidate after Radionova. She was 4th at Junior Nationals (Radionova 3rd). 1st and 2nd at Junior Nationals (Lipnitskaia, Shelepen) had GP Events, so Radionova and Agafonova were 1st and 2nd of eligible to JGP. Also Agafonova with two bronze medals of JGP Events-2011 was best of JGP-2011 participants (excluding them who had GP-2012 Events).
But she was not ready at August-September 2012 and had not JGP events at 2012.

Testing "is skater or couple ready" may be at very high level. President of Russian Federation of Figure Skating Alexander Gorshkov visited skating rink to see skating of one Junior Lady and one Junior Pair before their first JGP Event.

And I believe - USFS will not send to JGP Event skater who had not good results at previous season and at the beginning of season does not show good skating.
The same - Federation of Russia.
I wrote about Gosviani's results at early September - not good.
Her moderately good skating was at Russian Cup Events III, IV, V - after JGP Events.
Her best for now - Nationals.

[AlexRus]

You have to ask – in the year before hosting the Olympics, is it wise for Russia to send a team of THREE ROOKIES to the Europeans and/or the Worlds?! You would have thought they would have had at least one skater on the team that had experience of a major tournament.

Of three "rookies" two - Liza and Adelina - are well-knowh at world level, best of eligible by age Russian female skaters (Lipnitskaia and Radionova, may be, are better or at least not worse, but they are too young for ISU Senior Championships). Adelina had four Senior GP Events. Liza too and two Senior GP Finals. Both have medals from GP Events. Liza won Kostner, Wagner, Czisny, Suzuki at GP Events 2011 (I named ony most famous, she was 1st at both GP Events 2011, so she won all other participants of these Events).
Also they had excellent results at Junior competitions - JGP and Junior Worlds.
Adelina is 3 times Champion of Russia, Liza is now Champion of Russia. They are two of three competing female Champions of Russia (third - Makarova - now is in not so good state).

As I said before, I would have picked Korobeynikova. OK, so Polina is not much older than Adelina and Liza, and she is not as good as Alena and Ksenia are when they are at their best. But, at least she has one year of experience at both tournaments under her belt (as opposed to Adelina, Liza and Nicol, who have none), and she is on the upward curve (whereas Alena and Ksenia are on the downward curve).

Polina Korobeynikova had no good results after Euro-2012. No international, no in Russia.
At Nationals-2013 she was 10th and 6th of eligible by age. In FS at Nationals she had only 4 triples (one URed) anf fall from 2A. I.e. her permanent problem - unstable jumps - is very serious now.

But, good luck to Nicol. I hope she surprises all the doubters!
CaroLiza_fan

She is Nikol. See her correct name at http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00010707.htm

[bsfan]

If sending Polina to Euro instead of Nicole made any sense, then sending Kovtun would be alright. I mean IF.

[AlexRus]

Now, Gosviani has very little experience, but so far she's already made the World SP minimum on her first try.

For now only for SP, her FS will be tomorrow.
It is normal - to earn technical minimum at first try for girls from Russia, USA, Japan. These countries have many talented skaters.

Her international experience is really very little - Coupe de Nice (novice) at 2007 and one JGP Event at 2010 (7th place and no second Event).
I believe, it is not a problem. Russian girls often skate good at nteir first Internationals. And not only Russian, Gracie Gold was "gold" (1st place) at her first JGP Event.

[CaroLiza_fan]

That's all fine and acceptable, and I fully understood your point, but where we fundamentally disagree is that Liza and Adelina are considered rookies on the world stage. Although they've never been to a Euros or Worlds, they've been to everything else but, and done very well in general. Nobody so far has said Nikol is going to Worlds, not that I'd have a problem with it if she does well at Euros. And here's the thing- as soon as Euros happens and potentially 2 Russians end up on the podium, suddenly they aren't such rookies anymore. So they wouldn't be sending a bunch of no-names to Worlds, even if Gosviani was on the team. And at least one of Tut or Sot would've made it to Euros and maybe Worlds *last* year had they been old enough. So one of the purposes of Euros 2013 for Russia is a resume builder. All 3 of them need this- and have earned it with good placements at Nationals. I just don't get the point of digging down to 10th place at Nationals when there's a perfectly good Nikol right there ready to make a splash. I'm really dismayed at the way posters seem to be bending over backwards to find someone else mediocre to put on the team in her place, and I'm not just referring to CaroLiza_fan. We're all entitled to our opinions, that's fine, I just personally don't get this reasoning that skaters should be made to wait their turn even if they are beating the older ones. It's not how other sports work, and this isn't China. I personally think Russia will do just fine with their "three rookies," but maybe I'm just more of a gambler that way. I always like to see the underdog get a shot when they earn it. Furthermore, Alena, Ksenia, Polina, and Sofia all appear to need time to sort themselves out. They proved at Nationals that they aren't in Euros shape. I surmise that a test skate might be held for Alena before Worlds to see if she's skating any better than Nationals.

Very good response, haribobo. And I do agree with you on most of your points.

But, I still class the Europeans and the Worlds at a level above the Grand Prix Series and the Junior competitions.

I suppose the nearest comparison I can think of is in snooker (sorry Eurosport’s skating viewers, I know snooker is a sore point! But, I am a fan of both sports!) Amongst the professional events, there are:

1. invitational tournaments (e.g. Wuxi Classic prior to 2012/13 season; World Team Cup; 6-Red World Championship)
2. a series of small ranking tournaments called PTC’s (Players Tour Championships) that are a cut down version of normal tournaments and which build up to a Grand Final;
3. normal ranking tournaments (e.g. Australian Open, Shanghai Masters, German Masters, China Open, Welsh Open);
4. the 3 Major Tournaments (the UK Championship, the London Masters and the World Championship)

So, putting this into skating terms:

1. the invitational tournaments are the equivalent of the likes of the Finlandia Trophy, or Japan Open;
2. the PTC’s are the equivalent of the GP Series;
3. the normal ranking tournaments are the equivalent of the likes of the Nebelhorn Trophy, Ondrej Nepela Trophy, or Cup of Nice;
4. the Major Tournaments are the equivalent of the European Championship, 4 Continents, and the World Championship

In snooker, nobody would say the PTC’s are comparable to the Major Tournaments. In fact, very few would say the PTC’s are even comparable to normal tournaments. Yet, in the arguments in this thread, people seem to be trying to say that the GP Series is comparable to the Major competitions.

One final anecdote from the snooker. The next of the 3 Major Tournaments – the London Masters (which is being held next week) – is actually an invitational event open only to the top 16 players in the rankings.

One of the players in this year’s London Masters, Mark Davis, has been on the professional circuit for 21 years. But the 2012/13 season is the first time he has made it into the top 16 in the rankings. And, hence, this is the first time he has played in the London Masters. So, how is he being described in the press in the lead up to the Masters? Yes, you’ve guessed it! They are calling him a “ROOKIE”! And that is despite the fact that:

1. he is one of the oldest, most experienced players on the professional circuit;
2. he has won the 6-Red World Championship twice, in 2009 and 2012;
3. he won the 2002/3 Masters Qualifying Event, but was knocked out of the London Masters in the Wildcard Round, and so didn’t actually get to play in the tournament proper [the organisers got rid of the Qualifying Event and the Wildcard Round after the 2009/10 season];
4. he was the runner-up in the Paul Hunter Classic (a PTC in Germany) in 2011;
5. he has made it to the main venue of the UK Championship on 7 occasions (including reaching the semi-final in 2012);
6. he has made it to the main venue of the World Championship on 7 occasions!

So, the moral of the story is that “rookie” DOES NOT necessarily mean totally inexperienced. It just means they are inexperienced in that particular event (like Mark Davis at the London Masters) or inexperienced in that type of event (like Adelina and Liza in what I am terming the "Major Competitions")

Now, it is probably my fault for getting so wound up by the tone of the 2 messages that I was replying to, and thinking ahead to my next part of the discussion (where I explained why I would pick Polina as opposed to Alena or Ksenia). Oh, and the fact I was trying to watch TV at the same time! But I actually left out the part in the middle where I got to the crux of my point about experience!

What I was getting at is that because there are a lot more people watching at major championships like the Europeans and Worlds (whether they know much about skating or not is another matter!), there is a lot more expectation from the fans and hence a lot more pressure on the skaters.

Like, in most spectators eyes, these are supposed to be the best skaters from each country in that continent/in the world (we all know that that is not necessarily the case, as the fact that we are talking about the choices shows). So, it is a lot of weight being placed on the skaters shoulders, and an awful lot more weight if it is your first time appearing at one of these championships.

So, with this in mind, you would want to have somebody on the team that had experienced those sorts of conditions before. You know, to help and reassure the rookies. That is not to say that I think somebody like Adelina or Liza needs help with pressure, given their past success. But you never know. After all, they are at that difficult stage of a teenage girl’s life…

Now, I know that all the other skaters selected for the Russian team in Men’s, Pairs and Dance have all been there before. But, I don’t know how much time that the skaters from the different categories get to spend with each other. So, the new girls in the team may not be able to get reassurance from outside their own wee group.

Personally, I would have kept Polina (or Alena) in for this year’s Majors so that they could help bed Adelina and Liza into the team. And then, I would have brought Nikol (or Julia, if the rules say she is old enough!) in next year. That way, Adelina and Liza would have a year under their belts, and hence they can then help bed in their new team-mate.

But, I am not saying that every skater should wait to take their turn! If you are good enough to be on the team (and old enough to be allowed in by the rules) then by all means younger skaters should be able to leap-frog their older, more established counterparts.

For goodness sake, I just need to look at my Facebook updates page to see the number of very good young skaters out there who are not getting the chance to compete on the international stage (even at Grand Prix level) because their national federation is not willing to take the risk of choosing somebody other than the established star(s). So, you have to give credit to Russia for taking that chance with Nikol this year, and with Polina last year.

Believe it or not, I was one of the many people who was annoyed that Polina got onto the team last year rather than Adelina. I know, Adelina was born 1 day too late to be allowed in. But, I don’t see why the rule is you have to be 15 at the end of June when the Europeans are the following January and the Worlds the following March. Surely the requirement should be that you are 15 at the start of that particular competition. But that is another discussion, one which I will hopefully be starting a thread about in the next day or so (I have already written the comment – it is just a matter of checking through it before posting!)

And I fully agree with your point about Alena and Ksenia needing time to sort themselves out! In fact, I said that in my first comment in this thread (a link to which I also intended putting in my last comment, but forgot!) But, I still fear that if they take time out, they will never get back in. Which would be a shame, particularly for Alena, as she does seem to always pull something out of the bag at World’s.

And thank you for mentioning Sofia Biryukova. I had forgotten all about her, probably because she had such a wretched time at both her GP appearances, and then again at Russian Nationals. She is definitely another skater who should be doing a lot better than she is at the moment, and who should have been somebody to take into consideration for the team, had she been on form.

But, I still think Polina K is much better at the moment than you are giving her credit for. And I would definitely not use the word “mediocre” to describe somebody that was the “best of the rest” behind Adelina, Liza and Elena Radionova after the SP at Russian Nationals. As I say, she was just unfortunate to have a bad FS on the day.

Perhaps we should just agree to disagree.

So, can we PLEASE end this argument now and just look forward to seeing the skating?

Finally, apologies to the more recent comments that this is mainly replying to the first reply (haribobo’s) after my last comment. But, that was the only comment that had arrived at the time I was last on the forum! And, given how much I have written already, I feel I have probably said enough!

She is Nikol. See her correct name at http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00010707.htm

But thanks AlexRus for the clarification on the spelling of Nikol’s name. There were so many variations in this thread, I just picked one spelling and stuck with it! But, I have just corrected the spelling in this particular comment.

CaroLiza_fan

[volk]

Nikol's going to Euro.

[gmyers]

Gosviani singled two jumps in her free skate in her qualifying event for euros. Hope she doesn't do that again. Without jumps there is no reason to send her.