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Thread: Renewed Czisny ready to return to ice in Omaha

  1. #121
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    I agree with most posters here. Tara did have phenomenal triple triple but the jumps were small much like her skating. Whereas Baiul roughly at that age could portray herself as mature and sophisticated (Swan Lake); Lipinski really just had to sell her performance as a young person. Maybe Alissa will be like Marie B?

  2. #122
    Rejoicing in the land of Kwan kwanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    I dont really agree. Michelle's performance in Nagano, while excellent, was clearly not up to the standard of her Nationals performance, there was no comparision. Along with that these were the Olympics, not Nationals. As great as Kwan is in her long career I think she managed 5 or 6 total perfect 6.0s at World or Olympics (half of those in the short program, and never more than 2 per any program), if we exclude the 2004 Worlds where due to obviously tribute to 6.0 judgingfest and the 100 or so 6.0s awarded that week all 6.0s were a joke and must be disregarded (unfortunately even those truly deserved like Shen & Zhou's LP there).

    As for why it was judged as it was, the judges are told to use the scores to place skaters in the order they feel they should be in. Thus for those judges who already gave Kwan 5.8 technical, 5.9 presentation, and felt the technical edge was a bit more than the presentation one, or if not felt the overall vigor and energy of Tara's performance combined with the edge in content due to the combinations, should win, they had no choice but to either give Tara a 6.0 technically (hard to justify with her flutz, small jumps, and non exceptional non jump elements) or give 5.9, 5.9. It doesnt mean they consider the two dead equal on presentation neccessarily, but they are doing as instructed and using the marks to give the skater they feel deserved it on the day the win. Lets remember one thing, Tara did not get a higher artistic mark than Michelle from any judge, and lower from many of them, and keeping in mind back the technical score often was used as the base score for the artistic (now this part they are not instructed to do, but it is reality it seemed) all 9 of Michelle's presentation marks went up, many by .2, and none of Tara's went up while some going down. So the idea the judges favored Tara in presentation is a laughable suggestion, her win was based on their favoring her technically that night (justifiable) and finding the presentation side plausible enough to allow her to win based on her technical edge. Every single judge that voted for Tara was based on a superior technical mark.
    That's a fair assessment. Still, I believe the overall impact of Tara skating so well after Michelle already skated so well factored into her scores and placement. Point is we'll never know how it would have turned out if things had been different and the skating order had been reversed. It could have gone either way...but that was definitely one of the toughest competitions to call b/c both ladies skated very very well that night.


    Back to the OT (as Icey pointed out), I think Alissa competing in this small competition could be a good thing but, depending on how she skates there, it could be bad. If she looks steady and confident and performs decently, that could boost the judges' faith in her heading into nationals. However, if she goes there and is a mess, that will do her no favors once she gets to Omaha. I'm not saying she needs to skate lights out or anything, but she should be able to show she can at least be competitive on some level.

    But similar to Yu-Na's situation of competing at NRW and nationals, this won't be a true test of her abilities to perform under pressure. A small-time competition is completely different from the lights, expectation and pressure that comes with performing on a big stage.

    I wish Alissa the best.

  3. #123
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Someone on FSU said that she's competing at the Fox Cities Invitational in Appleton, WI this weekend. http://www.vfsclub.com/events/competitions/
    Looking at the entry-eez schedule, she's not listed as a competitor in Senior Ladies, so whoever got that information must have been mistaken...

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    That's a fair assessment. Still, I believe the overall impact of Tara skating so well after Michelle already skated so well factored into her scores and placement. Point is we'll never know how it would have turned out if things had been different and the skating order had been reversed. It could have gone either way...but that was definitely one of the toughest competitions to call b/c both ladies skated very very well that night.
    I don't think Michelle could have beaten Tara without a triple-triple with that judging panel that night. Tara had been struggling with her 3R/3R combo in some of the practices but landed a beauty in front of the judges. There was also a great deal of tension until the very end of her program because of the late 3-3 sequence. The reason I don't think the skate order mattered is because the judges knew what they were looking for well before the ladies skated.

  5. #125
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    Looking at the entry-eez schedule, she's not listed as a competitor in Senior Ladies, so whoever got that information must have been mistaken...
    Eh, no skin off my back either way -- just relaying information.

  6. #126
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    If Alissa isn't skating in either event, it makes one wonder if she really is ready for Nationals.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    I don't think Michelle could have beaten Tara without a triple-triple with that judging panel that night. Tara had been struggling with her 3R/3R combo in some of the practices but landed a beauty in front of the judges. There was also a great deal of tension until the very end of her program because of the late 3-3 sequence. The reason I don't think the skate order mattered is because the judges knew what they were looking for well before the ladies skated.
    I think Michelle should have received no lower than 5.8 on tech and Tara should not have received any 5.9s on presentation. I do think skate order mattered. Why else would a 7 triple, clean program be given a 5.7 on the first mark?

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenaj View Post
    Why else would a 7 triple, clean program be given a 5.7 on the first mark?
    Since they knew a skater was left who had harder combinations planned? Do keep in mind Michelle landed 7 clean triples with a triple-triple at the 2000 and 2001 Worlds and the performances were much better overall, especialy on the technical side, than her Olympic performance, and she even received some 5.7s and nothing higher than a 5.8 technically at those events. She even received two 5.6s for technical merit at the 2000 Worlds, although she did skate first there as well, and the reigning World Champ (Butyrskaya) and that years GP Final Champ (Slutskaya) who were 1-2 ahead of her after the short were both left to skate that time.

  9. #129
    Six Point Zero Krislite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icey View Post
    Isn't this suppose to be a thread about Alissa ?
    LOL. It's entertaining to follow nonetheless. It turned into a discussion about past Olympics and then inevitably about Tara vs. Michelle in the 1998 Nagano Olympics. That topic never gets old.

  10. #130
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    One thing that is intersting is how much less what expected of a prime Slutskaya to beat Michelle than ever was of Tara. Tara had to do the hardest triple-triples to even have a prayer of beating a clean Michelle with 6 or 7 triples and no triple-triples, and even then people were shocked the only time in that scenario Tara came out ahead, and could seemingly have never imagined it happening (and obviously still irks some Kwan fans today as this thread suggests). Yet Irina Slutskaya doing any kind of hard triple-triple was virtually a lock to beat Michelle even with her triple toe-triple toe and a perfect 7 triple program skated with full out speed and attack (which her Nagano LP, the only LP she ever skated clean and lost to Tara, while still excellent, did not have that speed and attack). Heck one time at Worlds Slutskaya with 6 triples, one of them probably two footed, a big popped open miss, no triple-triple tries very nearly beat Michelle with one of her best performances ever, 7 triples, a triple-triple, and bested her in technical scores, and actually acted surprised and p-ed to lose to top it off, lol! When Irina won her first Worlds she didnt need to win the LP but still beat a clean Michelle in the LP phase with only 6 triples and without even trying a triple-triple. I wont go far into COP examples as everyone knows Irina was a COP skater and Kwan was not, but even so at the 2005 Worlds Irina botched 2 elements in the short program and still beat a clean Michelle. I know Irina has way bigger jumps than Tara, better quality jump technique, better spins, better footwork, more speed and power, but she never had triple-triples and 7 triple programs nearly as consistent as Tara, and while Tara's artistry was sometimes lowballed in comparision to Michelle's, Irina is actually far less polished than Tara is. I know two wrongs dont make a right and all other cliches, but by comparision to Irina and the incredible leighway she seems to get in her matchup with Michelle, I find Tara sure is demanded alot by comparision. It also shows how much greater a competitor Tara is than Irina that with all that was demanded of her to have a hope of beating Michelle, usually even a flawed Michelle (Nagano was an aberration), she constantly delivered perfect programs with the hardest content possible to beat her, while Irina who seemingly had to do far less to win the matchup with Michelle still so often failed to deliver in the World competitions, and in her 2 Olympic gold chances having so little needed to beat the gold medalist on both those occasions still couldnt do even that, vs Tara who needed to skate a historic performance to have a chance at her one chance and did.
    Last edited by pangtongfan; 01-12-2013 at 03:29 AM.

  11. #131
    Custom Title yuki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Someone on FSU said that she's competing at the Fox Cities Invitational in Appleton, WI this weekend. http://www.vfsclub.com/events/competitions/

    I think this is a grand idea -- good way to get her programs out there before Nationals. Not the same as doing a GP, but at least she'll have one competition under her belt.
    People on FSU have posted links to her SP at the Fox Cities invitational. Here they are:
    - fancam: link
    - better quality (from local news channel): link

    (Note to moderators: if it's not ok for me to post these here, please let me know.)

  12. #132
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    Well, you know how tempting it always is to go off on tangents. That's part of the fun!


    [ETA: Sorry this is confusing. It was meant as a response to Icey's point that this is a thread for Alissa...I swear I posted this right after Icey's original comment, and now it's not even on the same page.]
    Last edited by Olympia; 01-12-2013 at 08:55 AM.

  13. #133
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    Well, AC did compete Friday evening in the SP. The six minute was very good, and all the jumps were there fully rotated. In the program, she visibly slowed down into lutz, and had a two-footed landing with no combo. It did seem like she was being careful, but why she didn't do what she had done with the same speed and technique a few minutes earlier is unclear. The loop, now a combo, was very good and the 2axel was relaxed and very good. Her spins are still level 4 and appear to be far and away the best part of her skating. You could also feel the anticipation of the audience for her spins and layback. The audience just waits and waits for it.

    Her score would have been in the 50's on any GP event, with PCS hovering around 7.0 - 7.25, and she would have scored in her usual range had she attacked that lutz like the warm up lutz and done her combination.

    With some intelligent planning based on what she skated, her LP could score well. She could do two lutzes, two loops, two axels, a toe and a salcow with level 4 spins and level 3 steps and score very well. Forget 3flip entirely. Front load the program to get the lutzes out of the way and the loops done.

    She appeared to be well conditioned, and she is probably doing daily run throughs of her long by now. Let's see what she can put out two weeks before ladies final.

    It is possible that the other girls shouldn't count her out yet. This is a pleasant surprise.

  14. #134
    Custom Title FSGMT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sk8Boi View Post
    Well, AC did compete Friday evening in the SP. The six minute was very good, and all the jumps were there fully rotated. In the program, she visibly slowed down into lutz, and had a two-footed landing with no combo. It did seem like she was being careful, but why she didn't do what she had done with the same speed and technique a few minutes earlier is unclear. The loop, now a combo, was very good and the 2axel was relaxed and very good. Her spins are still level 4 and appear to be far and away the best part of her skating. You could also feel the anticipation of the audience for her spins and layback. The audience just waits and waits for it.

    Her score would have been in the 50's on any GP event, with PCS hovering around 7.0 - 7.25, and she would have scored in her usual range had she attacked that lutz like the warm up lutz and done her combination.

    With some intelligent planning based on what she skated, her LP could score well. She could do two lutzes, two loops, two axels, a toe and a salcow with level 4 spins and level 3 steps and score very well. Forget 3flip entirely. Front load the program to get the lutzes out of the way and the loops done.

    She appeared to be well conditioned, and she is probably doing daily run throughs of her long by now. Let's see what she can put out two weeks before ladies final.

    It is possible that the other girls shouldn't count her out yet. This is a pleasant surprise.
    Alissa doesn't have the 3S: she was actually attempting it at the beggining of the 2011-2012 season but never landed it cleanily, so I think that the best layout for her would be: one lutz, two loops and two toeloops, one flip and one axel (remember that the 2A has been giving her more problems than the 3F in the past!); however, I'm happy to hear that she's in good condition and that her spins are as magnficent as always! Now I want to know the music of her FS!

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    If Alissa isn't skating in either event, it makes one wonder if she really is ready for Nationals.
    She did skate at Appleton. She has already skated her short. I think her team chose this over Detroit so she could get some feedback from the judges. What kind of score did she get?
    Last edited by Icey; 01-12-2013 at 10:35 AM.

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