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Thread: Renewed Czisny ready to return to ice in Omaha

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    True, thank goodness she did. 6.0 or COP it's still astonishing what she did. Of course, I knew she would win if she skated well ... but I was still on the edge of my seat to see if she would and just crossing my fingers that she wouldn't have some shocking implosion. I still felt like I needed a drink to get me through her LP

    1998 and 2002 were more emotional for me because, well, Michelle Kwan was there and other US ladies I was attached to and because the competition was closer. But in 2010 the excitment came from the expecation that you were going to see one of the greatest Olympic performances ever - and that happened. It was almost superhuman.
    That's a great way to put it. I think that's what I was feeling as well. So often in the Olympics, even the winner doesn't do well. It's a tremendously pressurized situation, and often everyone either falls short (or falls!) or backs off a bit. So even a foregone winner might not give a satisfying performance. That LP night in Vancouver, YuNa gave a completely satisfying performance. Her jumps weren't just okay; they were at their best. Her moves were smooth and clean. Even better, so were almost everyone else's. The entire top six did themselves proud. Definitely a night I wouldn't have wanted to miss.

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    2006 might be weak in term of TES, but PCS should be close to slightly better.

    Shizuka has one of the best LPs in recent memory in term of choreography. And who could forget her Y-spiral and her Ina Bauer into the 3 jumps combo. She was smooth as silk. I think Shizuka had more standout moments than Yuna in 2010. Moments that are still talked about many years down the line. And she had never done them in competition before, which made them oh so freaking awesome. Yuna was perfect, but I couldn't recall a signature move in her program.

    Sasha had better programs than Mao. Mao was awesome with the 3As (these are the moments you hold your breath thinking will she land it) but apart from that, she was forgettable, just like Kim. I only remember the sheer determination to land the 3As, but that was it.

    And Joannie is no Irina. Irina SP was like one of those Jason Statham movies, crank crank crank boom! She might not be your cup of tea, but she was flying out there.

    2006 O, TES was weak, but it can hold its own. Now, 2002 was a mess. The winner wouldn't place top 5 in 2006 or 2010.

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    Irina's presentation of her SP was great in Turin (along with great technical elements of course), but her LP was simply awful in every respect the way it was skated that night, both technically and presentation. All her jumps landed high on her toepoints and barely held on to, barely finishing her spins and footwork hence why they got low levels, really slow, bad program which didnt suit her at all, and tired and lacking any of her usual energy or zest, along with being even sloppier than usual. Joannie, Nagasu, Lepisto, Flatt, from Vancouver all kill Slutskaya from Turin in the LP phase. The mere fact she probably would have won that night without her 2 major despite (she lost by less than 10 points, 8 points she would gain from the fall and tripled double, and one can assume her easily making up atleast another 2 points in PCS and GOE), despite the otherwise terrible performance and poor quality elements she performed that night apart from the 2 major misses, says it all about the standard of skating that event.

    I agree Sasha had better programs in Turin than Mao in Vancouver, and Mao's programs were sadly far below her considerable artistic potential while under Tarasova. However the two, Mao from Vancouver and Sasha from Turin, skated head to head Mao would still absolutely crush Sasha based on way higher TES in both (and ridiculous as it might be Mao would probably even get the higher PCS too as we all know huge TES impacts PCS anyway). If one is just talking enjoyment factor, well that is subjective, but Sasha from Turin will mostly be remembered for the disapointment of falling twice and blowing a golden chance, story of her career, and that glosses over her otherwise beautiful LP in an artistic sense, while Mao will be remembered for making Olympic history with all those triple axels, and only losing to an unbeatable Kim.

    Shizuka had a nice program but lets be real here, it wouldnt have won the Olympics any year the last two decades other than 1994 most likely. In 2010 or 1998 it might not have even won a medal of any color. She played it super safe, not doing the 3-3s since the others were falling is fine, but she could have atleast done 6 or 7 triples even without a 3-3 she didnt even do that. Even Sasha who is completely unable to do 3-3s and isnt a great jumper at all still tried 7 triples atleast, and Shizuka who can do 3-3s not only doesnt try one, but only tries 5 triples. Also while her program was nice it is not like is a historic artist like Kwan or Cohen to compensate for much lesser technical content. It doesnt stand out in history for either technical or artistic prowess, atleast her 2004 Worlds winning LP was much more of a standout.
    Last edited by pangtongfan; 01-10-2013 at 07:24 PM.

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    Okay, but people are operating from the position that the only drama/narrative value is in the winner. I disagree with that contention. But, as kwanatic implied, it comes down to drama vs brilliance. I'd agree that 2010 was less dramatic than the earlier races. But I'd argue that the class of 2010 featured the greatest stretch of amazing performances from these athletes, which triumphs in my mind.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Okay, but people are operating from the position that the only drama/narrative value is in the winner. I disagree with that contention. But, as kwanatic implied, it comes down to drama vs brilliance. I'd agree that 2010 was less dramatic than the earlier races. But I'd argue that the class of 2010 featured the greatest stretch of amazing performances from these athletes, which triumphs in my mind.
    And she didn't only captivate skating fans.

    Here's a column by Seattle Times sports columnist Jerry Brewer http://seattletimes.com/html/jerrybr...brewer26.html:


    So, the most-debated question of any Olympics has an answer now. Who should be the face of these Games?

    Kim, for certain.

    Not Lindsey Vonn, not Apolo Ohno, not Bode Miller.

    Kim Yu-na.

    Kim Yu-na.

    Remember her name, and never forget how she dazzled the 2010 Winter Olympics. Remember her astounding agility, and never forget the tears she shed while gliding off the ice this night.

    "I still can't believe my performance," she said. "Watching previous figure skaters, I always wondered why they cried after their performance. Crying for the first time today, I still don't know why I did."

    Kim overwhelmed a worthy competitor, Mao Asada, of Japan, the silver medalist. She made you cheer when your heart said to give all your support to Canadian Joannie Rochette, who skated to a bronze medal just five days after losing her mother to a heart attack.

    Kim won Korea's first gold medal in women's figure skating and its first gold in any Winter Olympics event other than speedskating. She was as electric as the stunning blue dress she wore, flawlessly executing triple flips, triple lutzes and double axels at full speed, landing so softly each time that it felt like you were watching a feather float to the ice. Then Kim would wow the crowd with her flexibility during combination spins.

    The performance was so impossibly artful, so in tune with her musical selection — George Gershwin's "Concerto in F."

    How about that? A 19-year-old performed to a song written 85 years ago and matched its brilliance, maybe even amplified it. She truly is Queen Yu-na.

    That's her nickname back home. On this night, she fulfilled all lofty expectations with her world-record 150.06 score. Combine that with a world-record 78.5 in Tuesday's short program, and you have a 228.56 total that's every bit as impressive as Usain Bolt running 100 meters in 9.58 seconds.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    1998 the field lacked depth outside the top 2, Tara and Michelle were literally 5 falls better than the rest, which for didnt appeal, but I can understand how some loved it with the close battle of Tara and Michelle and both skating great (in all time Olympics they would probably be silver and bronze behind 2010 Kim)
    It's an apples and oranges comparison but both Michelle and Tara did 7 triples in 1998 to Yu Na's six. Both did the full set of triples (except the 3axel) and Tara did both a triple-triple as well as a 3-seq-3 practically at the end of her program. Yu Na did one 3-3 and didn't do the loop. I would say both were at least as strong in presentation as Yu Na--maybe stronger. Yu Na probably wins on speed (though Tara was pretty fast) and the two 6.0 skaters win on spirals. Spins are a draw. The bottom line is these are three of the best Olympic long programs ever.
    Last edited by jenaj; 01-10-2013 at 11:32 PM.

  7. #97
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    ^ That is, Tara and Michelle each did 7 triples (with Tara doing a triple loop/triole loop.)

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    Mods, do you think it would be possible to move this to its own thread "Which Ladies Olympic competition was best?" Since AC has never been to the Olympics :( this is obviously way off topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jenaj View Post
    It's an apples and oranges comparison but both Michelle and Tara did 6 triples in 1998 to Yu Na's six. Both did the full set of triples (except the 3axel) and Tara did both a triple-triple as well as a 3-seq-3 practically at the end of her program. Yu Na did one 3-3 and didn't do the loop. I would say both were at least as strong in presentation as Yu Na--maybe stronger. Yu Na probably wins on speed (though Tara was pretty fast) and the two 6.0 skaters win on spirals. Spins are a draw. The bottom line is these are three of the best Olympic long programs ever.
    I am quite sure if all 3 were skated head to head Yu Na would win easily, under either 6.0 or COP, and by a huge margin under COP. Comparing Tara to Yu Na, Yu Na wins easily on the jumps since she does as many difficult combinations or more, has much better technique, doesnt flutz or UR as Tara did, and her jumps are tons bigger and carry more flow. I am pretty sure Yu Na's jump layout was worth more points under COP than Tara's would be, or atleast as much, and Yu Na would probably get 10 or more points more in GOE alone in a LP than Tara would (Tara would in fact get -GOE on both her lutzes). All of Yu Na's spins are stronger than Tara's except the sit spins which are close, Yu Na's footwork is much better, and I totally disagree Tara had better spirals (Michelle yes, Tara no). Yu Na is definitely better artistically than Tara too. Meanwhile Michelle without a 3-3 wasnt even able to beat Tara, so need to analyze anything there when even Tara is so clearly behind Yu Na. If one must say anything though Michelle from 1998 would be competitive artistically (her 98 Nationals performance would be ahead artistically but Olympics wasnt as good) but even further behind technically than Tara is.
    Last edited by pangtongfan; 01-10-2013 at 11:31 PM.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    ^ That is, Tara and Michelle each did 7 triples (with Tara doing a triple loop/triole loop.)
    Yes, that's what I meant!

  11. #101
    I got your program components right here. Pepe Nero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think the first spot will go to the person who skates the best at Nationals, and the second spot will go to the person who skates second-best.
    Heck, yes. Let's hope, anyway. Funny how people complain about judges picking who's going to medal in advance (as many folks did last year in response to AC's silver at nationals), but then explicitly call for judges to judge nationals based on who is predicted (by anonymous internet posters) to do well at Worlds.

  12. #102
    I got your program components right here. Pepe Nero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Czisny's better performances:

    gold-medal SA 2011 FS: 3z+3t<<, 3fe<<-fo↓, 3lo, 3z<, 2s, 3lo+2t, 2a+2t+2lo

    Worlds 2011 5th place FS: 3z↓, 3f+2t, 3t+2t+2lo, 3lo, 3z+2t, 2a, 3t

    gold medal GPF 2010 FS: 3z+2t, 3f+2t, 3s, 3lo, 3z, 2a-fo, 3t

    gold medal SC 2010 FS: 3z+2t, 3f+2t, 3f, 3lo, 3t, 2a, 3t↓

    bronze medal TEB 2010 FS: 3z+2t, 3f+2t, 3t, 3lo-hd, 3f↓, 2a<fo, 1t

    Only one near-clean FS in the bunch (GPF gold medal), and she finished 3rd in the FS of that event.

    It's interesting to look at the layout of her FS over the 2010-2011 season. It seems she had a different jump layout for each performance, and in all she landed a 3-jump combination only once.

    ETA: Yes, Alissa did beat Kostner at GPF 2010. But Kostner has rarely been in top form in the early season. Carolina did come back to win bronze at Worlds 2011, beating Alissa.
    Chuckm, why do you leave out AC’s 2011 nationals? I understand leaving out national competition if one is comparing scores, but if one’s only purpose is to look at jumps landed, then all skates (competitive or not) are relevant.

    Not sure, btw, how many skaters, would come out looking awesome if listed by jumps/technical panels calls, in the past few years.

    Also, Chuckm, can you explain what motivates you to criticize Alissa Csizny on every thread on which her name appears on GoldenSkate? There are some skaters I’m not a big fan of, too. I just, for the most part, don’t read the threads about them. Did Alissa kill your kitten?
    Last edited by Pepe Nero; 01-11-2013 at 02:37 AM.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenaj View Post
    It's an apples and oranges comparison but both Michelle and Tara did 7 triples in 1998 to Yu Na's six. Both did the full set of triples (except the 3axel) and Tara did both a triple-triple as well as a 3-seq-3 practically at the end of her program. Yu Na did one 3-3 and didn't do the loop. I would say both were at least as strong in presentation as Yu Na--maybe stronger. Yu Na probably wins on speed (though Tara was pretty fast) and the two 6.0 skaters win on spirals. Spins are a draw. The bottom line is these are three of the best Olympic long programs ever.
    Tara got away with youthful exuberance but her jumps if fully rotated and no edge calls today were not huge, did not cover ice and did not have the power of Irina, Carolina, Joannie et al. Tara was not artistic like Michelle or Yuna and she did not have a wonderful characer or personality like Oksana Baiul or the sophistication of Maria Butyrskaya. She did have youtful joy though. She was not an artist.

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    Alissa won't be skating at the Detorit club event to be held this week-end? Neither will Verner.

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Mods, do you think it would be possible to move this to its own thread "Which Ladies Olympic competition was best?" Since AC has never been to the Olympics :( this is obviously way off topic.

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