Quality vs. Quantity?

[os168]

The bullet points for positive GOE on jumps are:

1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry
2) clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
3) varied position in the air / delay in rotation
4) good height and distance
5) good extension on landing / creative exit
6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the musical structure

http://www.usfigureskating.org/conte...02012-2013.pdf

1, 2, and 5 could be considered "transitions" before or after. 1 and 2 could be different ways of stating the same thing, although there could be some entries that qualify for one and not the other; it would be rare that a judge would award both bullet points for the same jump. 5 would also cover what Mathman is talking about,

If you do all the other bullet points but neither 1 nor 2, and not 5 or only the "good extension" part of it, then it would be possible to earn enough bullet points for +2 or possibly even +3 GOE without any transitions.

In the interest of quality, maybe they could extend to +5 or f they satisfy more bullets points? So

+1 = 1 point
+2 = 2 to 3 points
+3 = 4 to 5 points
+4 = 6 to 7 points
+5 = All 8 points.

This is better suited since different levels between novice, junior, senior are more finely tuned. It encourages all levels more.

[kwanatic]

In the interest of quality, maybe they could extend to +5 or f they satisfy more bullets points? So

+1 = 1 point
+2 = 2 to 3 points
+3 = 4 to 5 points
+4 = 6 to 7 points
+5 = All 8 points.

OMG, no! +5!? Can you imagine how ridiculous the scores would look? The judges usually go overboard with the GOEs anyway, especially when it's a skater they like or are trying to prop up. Besides, I've seen tons of jumps that are easily +2 or +3 but receive +1 or 0 in terms of GOE. It's all up to how the judges feel about the skater. If it's a skater they don't particularly care for, they tend to be stingy with the GOEs; similarly, if they like the skater they are very generous or look the other way in terms of mistakes (a -1 as opposed to a -2 or they just won't mark anything). If they don't like a skater they are quick to hand out the -GOEs...

[os168]

OMG, no! +5!? Can you imagine how ridiculous the scores would look? The judges are usually too generous with the GOEs anyway, especially when it's a skater they like or are trying to prop up.

Yeah but +5 is cool!! :P after they factor it out as they do today by the reduced 30% GOEs, it works out more or less the same anyway.

Plus how many skaters can really qualify for ALL 8 points on even one of their best elements on their best days! :P If they do, they deserve +5!!! It will be the talk of the competition (and skating boards) for being being the peak of perfection being acknowledge properly in this sport.

The difference of
+5 (all 8 points!!) only works out 3.5
+3 works out 2.1

The actual difference is only 1.4 points hardly much given so much more bullet point which it satisfies.

[gkelly]

1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry
2) clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element

BTW, here is an example of a jump with an unexpected/creative/difficult entry that does not have clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding.

[Mathman]

ITA with you here Though I really like the intricate entrances we are seeing with COP and I like that they are rewarded but alot of the time skaters have weak landing , barely hit a landing postition and quickly do a transition like a little counter rotational hop or a rocker or counter and this jump ends up getting positive goe because of the transitions coming out of it. I love strong landing positions that are held for a second like what MK used to do out of her double axel circa 1995

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UlJuZjzpUM#t=0m49s (7 seconds)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1imuQWeIi4Q#t=1m54s (4 seconds)

[Olympia]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UlJuZjzpUM#t=0m49s (7 seconds)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1imuQWeIi4Q#t=1m54s (4 seconds)

I agree that MK had the most wonderful ride-outs from her jumps. It showed such blade mastery and balance--and she was fourteen at the time. This is not a kid who depended on being small and immature to rotate her jumps. She depended on knowing how to jump.

[FlattFan]

Quality vs difficulty is a different discussion. Difficulty is not quite the same as quantity, especially because the current scoring system of figure skating does NOT properly reward difficulty a lot of the time. Doing a 3Toe+2Toe+2Toe combination in worth more points than doing a Triple Lutz, for example. Very few female skaters can consistently perform a +1 GOE Triple Lutz, but pretty much everyone can do a 3Toe+2Toe+2Toe. Quantity over difficulty. The system is skewed. A 3Lutz+3Toe combination for ladies in the SP is worth only 1.9 points more than a 3Toe+3Toe. That's not enough, especially since it's easier to get +GOE for a 3Toe-3Toe.

3Lutz and 3T-2T-2T can be done together. It's not an either or situation.

A girl with only 3T-2T-2T is still going to be at a disadvantage with a girl with 3Lutz and 3T-2T-2T. The system designed to have 7 jumping passes, you can pick your 3T-2T-2T as the highest base value element, but that wouldn't put you at any advantage over some girl who has a real Lutz. And 3 jumps combo should score higher. You only get to do it ONE time in both programs.

Quite a fallacy you got there.

[mskater93]

FF: I think BoP is trying to argue that doing a REAL 3Lz is harder than a 3T+2T+2T but IJS says the opposite. BoP is making a case for rewarding difficulty and quality over quantity and quality. Does that now make more sense.

[gkelly]

But a solo jump and a three-jump combination don't fill the same "slot" in the program.

We could also say that doing a level 4 step sequence is harder than doing a triple toe loop, based on the number of singles skaters who have succeeded in doing either, but scale of values says otherwise. Ultimately it doesn't matter, though, because a skater is perfectly free to do both and would never replace one with the other.

A skater might replace a 3T+2T+2T with a solo 3Lz, but that would either be a conscious choice not to use all the jumps allowed in the program or else an error based on inability to add double toes at the end of the lutz or some other jump.

I suspect a skater like Oksana Baiul who had trouble adding combinations would find the 3Lz easier than the combo.

[skatel80]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UlJuZjzpUM#t=0m49s (7 seconds)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1imuQWeIi4Q#t=1m54s (4 seconds)

now that is +goe worthy

[FlattFan]

FF: I think BoP is trying to argue that doing a REAL 3Lz is harder than a 3T+2T+2T but IJS says the opposite. BoP is making a case for rewarding difficulty and quality over quantity and quality. Does that now make more sense.

A real 3Lutz is harder than a 3T2T2T. And you can do 3 of those in two programs. You can't do 3 3-combo in two programs. IJS says the opposite with a giant footnote, YOU CAN ONLY DO IT ONCE. So I don't see any case at all. There's no preference either way because quantity is 1.

[Blades of Passion]

Imagine if a skater doesn't do a 3-jump combination in a program. They do a Triple Lutz and forget to add a couple double toeloops onto the end of it. Another skater doesn't have a Triple Lutz in their program at all, but adds two double toeloops onto the end of a Triple Toe.

The scoring system says that the skater who did 3Toe-2Toe-2Toe won the competition (if all else is equal). The program with the Triple Lutz was more difficult, but it received less points.

[FlattFan]

I would agree if the program only allows one jumping pass and for the only jumping pass, some girl elects to do 3Lutz vs. 3T2T2T.
However, there are 6 other jumping passes. Why didn't they add the combo into any of the jumps? Then you get back to the same reason why Plush lost to Lysacek because he didn't do his 3 jumps combo.

In any event, if you have 7 jumping passes and you didn't do 3 jump combo, then maybe you don't deserve to win.

[Blades of Passion]

It doesn't matter why the person forgot to do the double toeloops. The fact is their program is still harder than the other skater's program, but the system gives them less points.

3-jump combinations shouldn't be a required element to begin with, but that's another argument.

[Krislite]

It doesn't matter why the person forgot to do the double toeloops. The fact is their program is still harder than the other skater's program, but the system gives them less points.

3-jump combinations shouldn't be a required element to begin with, but that's another argument.

In weighting which program deserves more points technically, the proper method is to consider the entire set of passes and then order them by difficulty. It doesn't make sense to consider the most difficult element in isolation.

Certainly, if two skaters had exactly the same layout except for the passes under consideration, this would be a fair complaint: e.g., if skater 1 has a 3Lz+3T and 2A, while skater 2 has 3Lz and 2A+3T, all others equal.

I agree with you, of course, that CoP doesn't properly reward difficulty, but I'm not sure about your example.

I would prefer a system where 2T and 2L have zero base values, don't take up a jump slot and are simply used to comply with the Zayak rule. For examle, if skater 1 does 3Lz+2T and 3Lz, while a skater 2 does two solo 3Lz, base values should be the same while the second skater incurs a Zayak penalty. Only back-end triple jumps should have base value (say 110% of their solo base value).