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Thread: 2013 Canadian Nats Senior Men LP

  1. #16
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    well in defence of nationals scoring (at least this time), reynolds did basically skate a clean program with 3 quads... one of which was late in the program.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjane45 View Post
    I've always wondered why judges inflate scores at some nationals. What is the point? Not much of a political boost if no one takes it seriously due to the reputation of inflation.

    Not to mention ethics and professionalism...
    It is not so much that the judges inflate scores at nationals but rather some posters have preconceived notions / bias about certain skaters and therefore, assumed these skaters cannot possibly deserve a score that is beyond what they perceive as a fair score within their reputation. Kevin Reynolds is ranked 12th in the world, but getting a 170+ score in the FP is in the turf of World Medalists, hence, the said posters simply ignored what he actually did and preferred to comment based on reputation. Some fans often criticized the judges for giving marks based on reputation, I find the reverse is ironically more frequent than many realize.

    Here are the facts, Kevin did some fairly amazing elements in his skate tonight :

    4S, 4T, 3A+3T, 4T+3T (+2nd half bonus), 3F+3Lo (+2nd half bonus)

    This kind of technical content is simply unmatched in the world at this time. I cannot recall the last time a man had 3 Quads in his LP plus two other 3/3, including a 3A and combo involving a 3Lo. Perhaps the poster who had a laugh at Reynolds' score could enlighten us of another man who had, in the past, successfully completed the above mentioned jumps within the same LP?

    Now, Reynolds' score did not break any records, whether nationally or internationally and his PCS is still mostly in 7s. Suffice to say, if he can duplicate such a skate internationally, chances are his PCS will also be mostly 7s, albeit closer to mid-low 7s than mid-high 7s. Reynolds has also put in a lot of effort to improve his 2nd mark and this is by no means an overnight effort. In any event, neither of his technical or the PCS score is particularly outrageous that deserved to be labeled as a joke, which is frankly insulting to his hard work and the judges. Note that the 3rd rank free skate is only in the 130s, a very solid skate from the former World Junior Champion with 8 Triples including two 3As, is about some 40 points lower. Some would argue a LP with 8 Triples and two 3As could have well scored quite a bit higher than 137 internationally, especially from a World Junior Champion. If there is really a national inflation as some claims, then I am clearly not seeing it based on the evidences available.

    Similarly, many fans earlier in the season used the same logic to dismiss Osmond's win over Suzuki at Skate Canada. They categorically denied that the young Canadian can possibly beat a World Medalist & veteran skater. Were the judges wrong too? Who were the people using reputation to dictate results as opposed to judging what was actually on ice? Sadly, some people used reputation judging a lot more often than they realize and it ain't the judges.

    So please don't let the disrespectful armchair claims of one troubled poster make you doubt ethics and professionalism of the judging panel or that the results/scores are laughable.
    Last edited by wallylutz; 01-20-2013 at 12:35 AM.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by flaneur View Post
    well in defence of nationals scoring (at least this time), reynolds did basically skate a clean program with 3 quads... one of which was late in the program.
    Sorry my post was a comment in general, did not realize the post I quoted referred to Kevin.

    I think most people agree that national inflation exists in some nationals, or even home soil advantage at international events. It just feels awkward that judges consciously give out higher scores at nationals as if there are two sets of standards.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by stickle View Post
    So, if a skater lands four quads in his Nationals program, the judges should only give him half scores on them so that they don't get accused of inflating? Yeah, I'd like to see the judges do that in any country.
    Actually, the said skater landed 5 Quads in total with his SP+LP combined. Somehow this kind of achievement is supposedly to be laughable even though the scores didn't break any records? There is something truly laughable in all this but it ain't the said skater or his scores.

  5. #20
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    It's possible that Kevin was underscored. Or just not overscored enough relative to others.

    Some judges was certainly throwing out +3 GOE and 8.5-9 PCS like freebies at national events, but not internationally. Why the discrepancy?

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by flaneur View Post
    well in defence of nationals scoring (at least this time), reynolds did basically skate a clean program with 3 quads... one of which was late in the program.
    Doesnt matter, he would still never ever score above 170 in front of an international panel, and would be lucky to break 160. Wouldnt get the GOE, PCS, spin levels, anything besides the jump difficulty needed. Chan also would score below 170 in front of an international panel for that skate.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjane45 View Post
    Some judges was certainly throwing out +3 GOE and 8.5-9 PCS like freebies at national events, but not internationally. Why the discrepancy?
    Actually, this is not correct. There are plenty of outlier scores at international events and ISU Championships. Certainly, not all the judges at the Canadian Championships tonight was throwing out +3 GOE or 9 for PCS like free candies. Just because there were a few examples of those really is not that different to any given international competition where there are outliers within any judging panel. Say the average GOE is +1 but we can see times to times that some judges will give +3 while others -2 for that overall +1 score. Same thing for PCS, there are always outliers at any given competition. What is clear is that the high scores given out tonight were strictly reserved for the top 2 skaters. The 3rd place finisher and lower received no such love. If there is any inflation, they could have well very inflated Rogozine's scores but that didn't happen.

    At international competitions, some judging panels are more lenient than others. That is why it is hard to compare scores between different competitions. Notable examples include GPF and Olympics where some would get the impression that judges are especially lenient, just like what you described : +3 GOE all over the place and high PCS scores and those are international events.

    Rather, I think what's at work here is the human perceptions and some of the myths that we have long assumed as facts that are influencing our perceptions. Scoring at some national events have, in the past, been more strict than at international events. Other times, they seemed like coronation. I think the answer is it depends. Different panel, different leniency and the timing and circumstances / time all play a role. It would however be false to simply assume national events carries an automatic inflation. Virtue/Moir, the reigning Olympic and World Champions, had their lowest scores last season at their nationals. Likewise, Patrick Chan had his highest season scores at his Nationals because he also happened to peak there with his best skates, which were totally flawless. Yet, many would still call that an inflation ignoring that he did in fact skate his best there.

  8. #23
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    Thanks wallylutz for your kind explanation and everyone for the response. I haven't followed Canadian nationals closely, just observed they are perceived to be one of the most inflated events - with more than usual outliers, possibly.

  9. #24
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    I really hope Elladje Balde gets sents to 4CC! I like his style, and I am well on my way to becoming a devoted fan Too bad he didn't make the World team, but congrats to the three medalists!

  10. #25
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    any videos? I really want to watch Reynold's FS...

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjane45 View Post
    Thanks wallylutz for your kind explanation and everyone for the response. I haven't followed Canadian nationals closely, just observed they are perceived to be one of the most inflated events - with more than usual outliers, possibly.
    There is really no substance to such claim just because one or few posters decide to spread such claims. Mao Asada scored a 130+ LP at the most recent Japanese Nationals with only 3 clean Triple jumps in her Free Skate. Does that mean Japanese Nationals is the king of all national inflation? See, it's dangerous to quote things out of context like this.

  12. #27
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    Good for Reynolds. Chan looks in trouble; he watered down his routine - what happened to the triple lutz loop triple salchow. I think he might not even make the podium at this rate.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    Good for Reynolds. Chan looks in trouble; he watered down his routine - what happened to the triple lutz loop triple salchow. I think he might not even make the podium at this rate.
    That combo was switched and now attached to his Triple Flip in lieu of the 2nd Triple Lutz, a sensible move given that his Triple Flip is more consistent and better executed than his Triple Lutz. But due to the uncharacteristic fall on the 3F, he was unable to complete the combo as planned so he didn't actually water down his routine. Instead, the fall killed that planned combo.

  14. #29
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    Patrick's La bohème is gorgeous, one of my favorite programs of the season and I am really anticipating a near-clean performance of it. I'm really sad it didn't happen at the nationals, the last chance is the Worlds since he isn't competing at the 4CC. :(

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Here are the facts, Kevin did some fairly amazing elements in his skate tonight :

    4S, 4T, 3A+3T, 4T+3T (+2nd half bonus), 3F+3Lo (+2nd half bonus)

    This kind of technical content is simply unmatched in the world at this time. I cannot recall the last time a man had 3 Quads in his LP plus two other 3/3, including a 3A and combo involving a 3Lo. Perhaps the poster who had a laugh at Reynolds' score could enlighten us of another man who had, in the past, successfully completed the above mentioned jumps within the same LP?
    Well, Javier Fernandez didn't do the exact same content at the [URL="http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf1213/gpf1213_Men_FS_Scores.pdf"]GPF[/URL], but I don't believe his free skate there was inferior in terms of technical content. And he's a better skater than Reynolds.

    That said, it is a very impressive performance from Kevin, so congratulations to him.

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