2013 Canadian Nats Senior Men LP | Page 5 | Golden Skate

2013 Canadian Nats Senior Men LP

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
I dont know about most years but I actually thought the judging at Russian Nationals this year was pretty reasonable. Fact is if Volosozhar & Trankov skate that well at Worlds they will likely score close to the 150 they got in the LP at Nationals, just look at the scores they get in other events with alot of mistakes. Kavaguti & Smirnov also will score in the mid 130s in the LP if they skate like that at Worlds, most had pretty much written them off, but if they can rediscover that level they can still contend for a medal. The women were great and worthy of the marks they got, Elizaveta T. is more likely to score higher 60s than Osmond 70+ for the short programs each did at Nationals IMO (I think Elizaveta would actually come out slightly ahead since her triple-triple combo is much harder). The men marks werent outrageous either, although Voronov was a bit high but he really skated his best ever performances thus far probably. It was nothing like 2010 where you had ridiculous scores like Plushenko over 100 points for his bare bones no choreography SP, and Voronov 95 points in the short program.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Which protocols/evets exactly proved according to you that RN is more inflated than CN?

Plushenko's Olympic year short vs his Nationals SP (in one component score, there is a 2.2 point difference alone); the dance judging in general over the years.

Don't get me wrong. If you said which was worse, 9 times out of 10, it's Canadian Nationals. But they've got competition for the title. And realistically, Canada's gotten worse. But as compared to international scoring, it's not as terrible as we'd like to think (Canadian skaters are overscored internationally is a different debate, of course).
 

let`s talk

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
Plushenko's Olympic year short vs his Nationals SP (in one component score, there is a 2.2 point difference alone); the dance judging in general over the years.

Don't get me wrong. If you said which was worse, 9 times out of 10, it's Canadian Nationals. But they've got competition for the title. And realistically, Canada's gotten worse. But as compared to international scoring, it's not as terrible as we'd like to think (Canadian skaters are overscored internationally is a different debate, of course).
Olympic year? Year, let's talk Vancover :laugh:. Hardy an argument. Russian Nationals were judged more than sober. Just the freshest judging in dances at Euro for comparison is at your service. Competitions at CN? What a joke. Voir and Chan, and pretty much Osmand as well were locked for gold in advance.
 

sky_fly20

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
Euros is less inflated as its scoring almost mirrors what is the maxmum scored at skaters Nationals
4CC can be a bit inflated though not that much as Canadian Nationals ? D/R scoring 200+ and Osmond with 200+ that would beat Yuna's score

otoh, Reynolds should have won gold not Chan
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Plushenko's Olympic year short vs his Nationals SP (in one component score, there is a 2.2 point difference alone); the dance judging in general over the years.

Don't get me wrong. If you said which was worse, 9 times out of 10, it's Canadian Nationals. But they've got competition for the title. And realistically, Canada's gotten worse. But as compared to international scoring, it's not as terrible as we'd like to think (Canadian skaters are overscored internationally is a different debate, of course).

if Chan does the same LP at Worlds he will score below 170. I have no doubt of that based on the scores this season. The worst of all though was the scores of Gilles & Poirier, who will barely get over 90 for the same FD at Worlds. 2nd worst was Osmonds scores but I can see Skate Canada super excited about having a lady contender and huge hope for the future now, so I will give them a pass on that, but dont expect the same scores at Worlds unless she skates lights out in the LP (nothing she could do in the short to get a score like that bar adding a triple lutz-triple toe combo or harder). As excited as I was for our top 2 pairs I also doubt the judges will score them even above 130 in the LP for the same skates at Worlds, although IMO only due to reputation as unlike those others they IMO deserved the marks they got but wouldnt get it at Worlds due to protocal.
 
Last edited:

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Olympic year? Year, let's talk Vancover :laugh:. Hardy an argument. Russian Nationals were judged more than sober. Just the freshest judging in dances at Euro for comparison is at your service. Competitions at CN? What a joke. Voir and Chan, and pretty much Osmand as well were locked for gold in advance.

Heh. So basically, you're saying Vancouver was judged incorrectly. As I pointed out, that's not actually an argument you can make when discussing national inflation, as national inflation is compared to international standards. But you know that, just like you know that giving Plushenko a 9 for transitions (and nothing below a 9 for PCS for that SP) is not sober judging. But I'll let it pass too, I'm just that generous.

As for competition at Canadian Nationals, I will agree - they were locks. But the fact is that they were the best, and everyone knew it going into the competition. I'd point out that V/T absolutely routed the competition at Russian Nationals, had huge scores during the season for less-than-stellar skates as well - were they not locks? The difference, of course, is that K/S should be treated better than they are by their own federation but have been utterly dismissed. People pretended that Plushenko might lose, of course, but that certainly didn't come to pass.

ptf, I'm not convinced Chan would score below 170 for the same LP at Worlds, though he would definitely deserve to. D/R have scored 124 at TEB with a fall and two level three elements. They get those to level four and don't fall, they stare 130 in the face. Osmond and G/P's scores were obvious examples of overscoring.

4CC is definitely overscored compared to Euros.
 

let`s talk

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
just like you know that giving Plushenko a 9 for transitions (and nothing below a 9 for PCS for that SP) is not sober judging. But I'll let it pass too, I'm just that generous.
That's not a generosity. It sounds more like bitterness that Plu gets over 9s in PCS from internationals panels too like at last year Euro, and somehow doesn't zamboni the ice to use PCS to top :laugh:. And no. If by "you" you mean "me" personally, then I have no idea what you are talking about. No need to use my persona to back up your opinion when it's definitely not the case. It looks weak and doesn't add any accountability to your statement.
I'd point out that V/T absolutely routed the competition at Russian Nationals, had huge scores during the season for less-than-stellar skates as well - were they not locks? The difference, of course, is that K/S should be treated better than they are by their own federation but have been utterly dismissed. People pretended that Plushenko might lose, of course, but that certainly didn't come to pass.
V/T deservely won with the huge advantge over K/S who are clearly having not their best season. Are you saying that K/S should have won RN? Oh dear, don't be ridiculos. Pairs were actually the only event at RN that was predictable. What do you mean by "they were the best"? You mean Plu wasn't and therefore shouldn't have won? Nice joke. As for Dances and Ladies, no one knew till the last minute what the podium will be. RN was fair play while in CN Canadians are probably the only one judging by this thread who think that Kevin didn't deserve gold.
 

MTBill

Spectator
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
Patrick Chan's Axels
The protocols show that he did two double axels and neither one of them were in combination. The rules state that you can not repeat a jump unless it is in combo. Why was he allowed credit for both of those? I suppose one of them was probably planned to be a combo but it wasn't. Anyone know the answer or do I have that all wrong?
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Patrick Chan's Axels
The protocols show that he did two double axels and neither one of them were in combination. The rules state that you can not repeat a jump unless it is in combo. Why was he allowed credit for both of those? I suppose one of them was probably planned to be a combo but it wasn't. Anyone know the answer or do I have that all wrong?

You can do two double axels as solo jumps. It's just the triples (and quads) that need to be done in combination if repeated.
 

Jade

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 19, 2013
Refreshing to see the American judging. Look what happened with Jeremy Abbott. You do not bring your "A" game you don't get rewarded. Even with his cache, he doubled his triple
axle made a few other errors and finished in third spot. He wont go to worlds since they can only send two. That would not happen here in Canada. What does Kevin Reynolds have to do to win,
a Quad Axle?
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Refreshing to see the American judging. Look what happened with Jeremy Abbott. You do not bring your "A" game you don't get rewarded. Even with his cache, he doubled his triple
axle made a few other errors and finished in third spot. He wont go to worlds since they can only send two. That would not happen here in Canada. What does Kevin Reynolds have to do to win,
a Quad Axle?

To be fair, the discrepancy between Abbott and Miner/Aaron is far smaller than the PCS discrepancy between Chan and Reynolds.
 

Jade

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 19, 2013
To be fair, the discrepancy between Abbott and Miner/Aaron is far smaller than the PCS discrepancy between Chan and Reynolds.

Should it have really been that different? Kevin has greatly improved in his skating skills and and should have at least won the long. The PCS is the tool used to
"fix" things.
 

figuristka

Medalist
Joined
Dec 15, 2003
Refreshing to see the American judging. Look what happened with Jeremy Abbott. You do not bring your "A" game you don't get rewarded. Even with his cache, he doubled his triple
axle made a few other errors and finished in third spot. He wont go to worlds since they can only send two. That would not happen here in Canada. What does Kevin Reynolds have to do to win,
a Quad Axle?

There is a huge difference in what happend to Abbott( who did no quad in short or Free) where 2 competitors beat him and Patrick Chan and Kevin Reynolds. Patrick made a couple errors but still did 2 quads and one in combination, not to mention the best SS in the world, and amazing artistry. Kevin has shown great improvement but is not a powerful skater and internationally Patrick would have beaten him too.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
There is a huge difference in what happend to Abbott( who did no quad in short or Free) where 2 competitors beat him and Patrick Chan and Kevin Reynolds. Patrick made a couple errors but still did 2 quads and one in combination, not to mention the best SS in the world, and amazing artistry. Kevin has shown great improvement but is not a powerful skater and internationally Patrick would have beaten him too.

Yep, ITA. The 2 quads sealed it. Kevin's skate was packed with jumps but the artistry isn't nearly as good as Patrick's. The skating skills and transitions have certainly improved. Chan is in a higher echelon than Abbott, technically and artistically (though obviously the artistic gap is less). This means he will invariably defeat a skater like Reynolds. For Reynolds to be just 4 points shy of him in the FS is a remarkable feat, since even on the international level Chan usually exceeds 'second-tier' by double-digits. I agree that Kevin should have won the FS, but it's a bit negligible now... the important thing is that he skated incredibly and has a chance at top 10 in the world, if he replicates his nationals performances... especially great considering his poor skate at Nationals two years ago when he was contemplating quitting.
 

deedee1

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
I am late to be here, but I have watched Mens comp at CN Nats, though 90-min. digested one on J-Sports, finally!

Many congrats to all the medalists: Chan, Reynolds and Rogozine! :yay:

A scary fall on 3F from Patrick...:eek: Hope he did not injure himself. Am a bit concerned about him, because he did not seem to be his 'usual-self'. Must be very hard for him to be expected by his fed to win at every and all competitions he gets to enter, I guess.

Wow, 5 quads in two programs from Kevin. :rock: Loved Kiss & Cry when his Free score came up! Great moment for him and his coach. My little complaint was I hoped at least he could have won the Free, since 10point gap from the short did not affect the overall standings...

A gutsy performance from Rogozine! He SOooo wanted to capture the 3rd spot to Worlds, didn't he? :cool: He appeared so determined throughout his Free, though he lost the steam a bit towards the end due to stamina, maybe. I was pleasantly surprised that he surely has improved his skating as a senior skater since I saw him last time. :yes:

Both Kevin and Andrei still have lots of shortcomings compared to Patrick, of course, but I truly enjoyed their performances at this Nats. I really look forward to seeing them again , along with Elladj, to compete at 4CC soon!
 
Top