Any Race Role in Scoring Ralph/Hill?
The Elephant in the Room that no one discusses. What are the thoughts out there?
That I think judges would overcompensate for any inklings in their own mind about race due to political correctness if anything else, especially given how race circulates in Canada. The silver and 4th place pairs teams at Euros are inter-racial pairs (Savchenko/Szolkowy, James/Cipre), for example - the world spins forward anyway.
R/H had a superb FD last season, but their choreography really dropped the ball this year.
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I've thought of that before but I don't think so. I think R/H were scored fairly since Asher fell in the SD. I think if it weren't for that fall they would have ended up in 3rd place.
How could they have been third when Orford and Williams beat them by over 3 points in free dance and Paul and Islam who also fell hard and did not recover quickly was only 3 points behind them in free dance?
Originally Posted by blue_idealist
The SD mark seem to be unusually harsh for Ralph/Hill compared to the FD mark for fall of Paul /Islam they were over 14 points out of third considering the strong recovery and finish of SD.
Western Europe seems to be way ahead of Canada in terms of acceptance on this topic. Overcompensate you have to be kidding! Go back over the past 4 years nationals and see if they overcompensated.
Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue
If they wanted to overcompensate they would have put them on the podium last year at Canadians. Do you really think the Americans would have placed a parachuted in team in 3rd spot when it did
not matter, since the third place team could not go to worlds, when they had another strong couple that qualified to go. You said Ralph/Hill had a strong dance program last year but placed 4th behind Gilles/Poirier
who could not go to worlds because Piper was not qualified. Ralph/Hill did go to worlds and had a great showing and finished 13th their first time there and arguably could have been one or two spots higher.
Their Nice France program is on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0u59lhwo7g0 listen to the reaction of the knowledgeable crowd who actually boo'd the marks as they felt it should be higher.
The only complication for the powers that be in Canada is they finished so well. I think they just want Ralph and Hill to go away as it is complicating their schemes. This year the scheming did not count on
Paul and Islam falling so badly so now they are left to send a team that is not ready to worlds. Do you believe Orford/Williams will place 13th if they go? Btw Crone and Paul first time at worlds was 12th for comparison
Last edited by Jade; 01-28-2013 at 09:56 AM.
Firstly, don't get me started on G/P last season. If you know me, you know that I think that the scoring of G/P was insane and that R/H should've been ahead of them, no questions asked. I think they weren't for a number of reasons, but race isn't one of them.
Secondly, I'd be floored if Western Europe was ahead of Canada in terms of acceptance here. Just google the Words "Spanish Football Racism," for example. That said, you want to discuss how culture or institutionalized racism enters into this debate, I'm more than willing (full disclosure - yes, I'm a black Canadian)
Will O/W place 13th? Doubt it. They are ranked 33rd on the SB list; 19th if you remove everyone who won't be competing at Worlds (either junior skaters, or the 3rd/4th/5th skaters for a country with 2 or 3 spots). But that said, if you look to last season, O/W's highest score was better than R/H's highest score.
Frankly, Skate Canada is hoping that W/P make it.
Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue
Weaver is still in a cast for at least another 5 weeks is my understanding, seems impossible for her to recover on time. I say they try to send Paul/Islam based on
what happens at 4C which was the original plan. They only wanted to bump R/H off the team. You know what happens to the best laid plans of mice and men.
Well western Europe particularly France, Germany the UK was more accepting than North America of Black stars and entertainers
Josephine Baker, Eartha Kitt, Louis Armstrong, Surya Bonaly to name a few. Hey you have lived it so i defer to your experience.
Where and when was that score handed out? How do you explain that?
Last edited by Jade; 01-28-2013 at 11:37 PM.
Ralph and Hill would first have to earn the TES minimum in the short dance to even be eligible to compete at Worlds. They didn't attain it at Skate America 2011, Worlds 2012, Nebelhorn Trophy 2012, or Skate Canada International 2012.
Another point, I was at the event and something I noticed. After R/H short program the they kept replaying the fall Asher took 4 or 5 times on the overhead
screen while waiting for their score and not showing other highlights of their program. Contrast that to the long program after Paul/Islam fell the overhead screen
showed all the highlights of their skate but not once did they show the fall. I was talking to people beside me and we were all waiting to see what caused the
fall. They never showed it. Kind of makes you go iiiimmm. What gives?
I do not think Ralph/Hill are the victims of racism. I think they are the victims of atrocious music choice combined with horrible choreography and lack of attention by coaches on fixing some basic long-standing issues like posture. Their FD was a mess, and their SD was a little better. They had lovely programs last year, and earned a great spot at Worlds. They should have been 3rd at Nationals last year, except for the ridiculous scoring of their club mates. This year is an entirely different story. I cannot believe they didn't change their FD after the first competition. It was just awful. It's time for this team to find new coaches, maybe BC, maybe Detroit, somewhere where they will get time and attention. Maybe just a small rink where they will get time and attention and be the top team. I think there are a few of those even in Ontario and Quebec.
Kaitlyn's cast is off, on January 24th this picture was tweeted by them:
Originally Posted by Jade
Thanks for that post. It is good to discuss these things and flush them out. It is good to hear different points of view.
Originally Posted by NorthernDancers
Having watched them over the years, there are a lot of little things that make you wonder.
Like the first time they placed 4th at Canadians the CBC replaying the 1st, 2nd 3rd and 5th place team but ignoring
Ralph and Hill the 4th place team. Then another year showing 1st 2nd 3rd place team and instead of showing the 4th place
team Ralph/Hill filled the time by showing the rivalry of Poje/Weaver against Crone/Poirier. How does one explain stuff like that?
Is it just coincidence or is something more sinister?
and... World Peace!
ABC and NBC notoriously chacked 4th place skaters at nationals to show the up and comers in pairs and ice dance until 2010. It's not unseen/unheard of.
Canada prides itself on being a multicultural country. However, I am not going to say there are no people in Canada who are racist. There will always be some with those attitudes wherever you live in the World. Hopefully they are a small minority.
As ImaginaryPogue mentioned earlier, sometimes judging (not necessarily in Figure Skating) may over-correct, for fear they may be accused of being race bias. An example would be the Miss Canada pageant. Many years ago, the pageant had been televised to the public. I recall seeing one event in which the winner was not the most beautiful, not the most talented, and not the most intelligent. In fact, she was kind of ordinary in all respects. The reason she won was, because she was a native Indian. It was obvious the judges selected her purely for political reasons. There was immense criticism in the news about the results. Not because she was a native Indian, but because of the obvious political judging. Since then, the pageant has never again been televised to the public.
Years ago, I recall receiving a government survey phone call at my home. From the type of questions asked, it was obvious the purpose of the survey was to help identify the extent of any possible racism which may or may not exist within the country. Questions included the ethnic origins of myself or parents, if I had ever experienced or witnessed evidence of racism. If so, from what other racial group, etc.. I think the government is always concerned about the possibility of racism growth within Canada. Especially since it is a multicultural country.
Last edited by rvi5; 01-29-2013 at 12:47 PM.
It was not just the fall that caused the 14 points. R/H lost the complete twizzle element, value = 0 (versus 6 points for a level 4 twizzle) plus the opportunity for positive GOE points, and they incurred a -1 fall deduction. Assuming they could have had a level 4 on the second stretch of YP as they did on the first, they lost another 4 points plus potentially higher GOEs when they only achieved a level 1 on that element. Without considering any other elements the judges look at,the twizzle and YP segment lost a minimum 11 points of the 14 out of third place. In the free dance P/I fell, took a 2 point deduction, and lost levels and GOEs but not the complete element.
Originally Posted by Jade
My heart broke for both teams, but the mistakes cost R/H the ranking.
Last edited by jolen; 01-29-2013 at 06:51 PM.