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Thread: Osmond vs. Kim in PCS, a huge gap?

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post

    1A) "She has steps preceding the 3F"

    Really? What steps? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O59GUx8iJMI#t=0m34s
    I counted at least 3 steps: LBO to RFI Choctaw to LBO Choctaw, a couple of strokes, and then another Choctaw (RBO to LFI), then 3turn into 3F. I don't understand why you think there are no steps.

    1b) "back spiral preceding her second lutz (and a mini-spread eagle immediately exiting out of it)"

    Back spiral? Is this the back spiral referenced? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O59GUx8iJMI#t=2m04s If so, that ain't a spiral as the free leg never went above the hip and the position was not maintained for even half a second. In a spiral, it is very important the tension of the position be maintained in the upper body as well but there was no such tension in that "split second spiral", too short, no tension and free leg below the hip. Mini-spread eagle : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O59GUx8iJMI#t=2m11s That is not a spread eagle, not even by adding the qualification that it is a "mini". By definition, a spread eagle needs to be on either inside or outside edge with clear gliding movement. The video clip showed the edge is flat in an almost standing-still position - it is simply standing on two foot.
    I agree that the movement before the jump entry does not count as a back spiral, but it's not stroking or gliding, either. Also immediately exiting the jump is a RBO loop (not loop jump) --- one could argue about its quality but it is not doubt choreographically intended to be a loop. I'm not jaylee, so I don't know what she/he referred to as "mini-SE."

    1e) "Her solo 3S exits directly into her footwork" This is factually correct but the subsequent interpretation of its value is incorrect. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O59GUx8iJMI#t=1m16s Going into a step sequence upon exiting a jump does not add value to the transition of the program given that this component criteria specifically evaluates the linkage between two elements. There is no linkage between the two elements to speak of here.
    Either I have misunderstood you here or you have misunderstood the criteria for Transitions component. It is supposed to evaluate the intricacy and difficulty of anything about connecting moves. I am not a judge but I have been told by at least one judge that it is more difficult to go from a jump landing to a spin or step sequence with no stroking or crossovers or just obvious rest. Most skaters lose speed upon landing a jump, but starting the next technical element, be it a spin or a step seq, you need some momentum to get started. The lack of any momentum generating moves (simple stroking or crossovers) signifies higher technical abilities. Therefore indeed if a skater CAN go from a jump landing to a spin/steps without push push push she would be rewarded for TR difficulty.

    Do you feel Kim has a huge PCS advantage over Osmond based on their respective national long program performance? Since Krislite did not specify what "huge PCS gap" is, I am going to assume by huge, it is meant the difference would be at least 10+ points of difference in the overall PCS. Do you feel that is the case, based on their respective most recent performance at their nationals and why?
    PCS consists of 4 components beyond transitions. Perhaps the most crucial one is skating skills, which cannot be accurately and reliably assessed without seeing a performance live. I suggest caution when making armchair but definitive judgment about PCS from TV impression.
    Last edited by Mathman; 01-21-2013 at 03:29 PM.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    After watching it, I was very surprised how simplistic the choreography is compared to many of Yu Na's past work. So I posted my comments here and got a rebuttal, which I like to examine and solicit others' take on :
    Les Mis is definitely not as simple, choreographically or in terms of transitions, as Miss Saigon or Scheherazade, both of which served Yu-Na respectably to multiple wins in each of those seasons, including the world title in 2009. It's simpler than Gershwin (which was very complex) and Homage to Korea, which the judges didn't reward or appreciate anyway.

    http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sho...l=1#post699377

    In my post, I have three main points: 1) Yu Na lacked difficult transitions between her elements. 2) Her choreography is overly simple and not challenging enough for what she is capable of 3) Her Interpretation stayed at the same level throughout the performance and failed accentuate the highs and lows of her chosen music

    In response, member jaylee, had the following rebuttals for each of the above 3 points so I am going to fact check them for discussion purpose:

    1) Yu Na lacked difficult transitions between her elements

    Rebuttal :

    1A) "She has steps preceding the 3F"

    Really? What steps? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O59GUx8iJMI#t=0m34s
    She is not just stroking into her 3F.

    1b) "back spiral preceding her second lutz (and a mini-spread eagle immediately exiting out of it)"

    Back spiral? Is this the back spiral referenced? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O59GUx8iJMI#t=2m04s If so, that ain't a spiral as the free leg never went above the hip and the position was not maintained for even half a second. In a spiral, it is very important the tension of the position be maintained in the upper body as well but there was no such tension in that "split second spiral", too short, no tension and free leg below the hip. Mini-spread eagle : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O59GUx8iJMI#t=2m11s That is not a spread eagle, not even by adding the qualification that it is a "mini". By definition, a spread eagle needs to be on either inside or outside edge with clear gliding movement. The video clip showed the edge is flat in an almost standing-still position - it is simply standing on two foot.
    Call it whatever you want, it's a move that counts as a transition. Is it a crossover? No, it's not. She's not the only skater to have used this move as a transition. See a similar one being performed here:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...9JYtwLY#t=108s

    As for the spread eagle, well, she's not just standing on two feet, they are pointed outwards. She does need to get on more of an edge to make it a true spread eagle, I'll give you that, but she is gliding.

    1c) "a spread eagle into the 2A combo" Agreed on this one, there is a SE preceding this element : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O59GUx8iJMI#t=2m26s

    1d) "Ina Bauer into the final 2A" Agreed on this one, there is a IB preceding this element : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O59GUx8iJMI#t=3m39s
    Thank you. You said that the "lack of difficult transitions was impossible to miss," but somehow, you missed these.

    By the way, she could have had these moves NOT connect directly to the elements and simply in between, but because she takes off directly from the spread eagle and Ina Bauer, that makes those transitions MORE difficult.

    Per this ISU video, which clearly states that an Ina Bauer directly into a double axel is more difficult than a standalone Ina Bauer:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...YD6RsSA#t=155s

    Oh, look, who's that skater that they featured?

    1e) "Her solo 3S exits directly into her footwork" This is factually correct but the subsequent interpretation of its value is incorrect. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O59GUx8iJMI#t=1m16s Going into a step sequence upon exiting a jump does not add value to the transition of the program given that this component criteria specifically evaluates the linkage between two elements. There is no linkage between the two elements to speak of here.
    Part of having good transitions is not having a lot of crossovers and strokes in between elements. It's about seamless integration of one element into another without stroking. A skater who goes from her salchow and goes directly into footwork should get a better TR score than a skater who lands the salchow, does a few crossovers before beginning her footwork sequence.

    I think the confusion here is the GOE bullet points on jumps in which Communication 1724 p. 10 allows difficult steps or elements immediately preceding a jump (e.g. performing a jump upon existing a spin) to be counted as one of the feature bullet point. Even then, the rules called for the steps or spins to be preceding the jump, not after the jump. There would be no positive GOE feature added to this jump either unless the order of the elements were reversed - the jump was executed immediately upon exiting the step sequence.
    I never argued that the 3S would get +GOE under the bullet guidelines for following it with the footwork.

    Of the 7 jumping passes, I counted only 2 cases of moves in the field preceding the jump / jump combo elements. To see if I was missing anything, I expand my evaluation to include the 3 spins in the program to see if more of them are being preceded with steps or moves in the field :

    Spin 1 : FCCoSp : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O59GUx8iJMI#t=0m43s No, there was no transition into the spin at all.
    Spin 2 : LSp : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O59GUx8iJMI#t=2m51s No, there was no transition into the spin at all or out of it.
    Spin 3: CCoSp : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O59GUx8iJMI#t=3m44s No, there was no transition into the spin at all.

    Conclusion : There is a serious lack of in-between skating in this program. Of the 10 jump and spin elements, only two of which are shown to be preceded with connecting steps and/or moves in the field. The video clips above were cut from the clip provided by Krislite demonstrate that the vast majority of Kim's elements were either executed one immediately after the other or were simply preceded by stroking. Hence, I gave that a 6.5 for TR, which I think is fair. Plushenko and Joubert have had very similar issues and despite their reputation, they should not be gifted on the TR marks neither should Kim.
    No, there is not. The only transitions you are including in your definition are moves in the fields/difficult entrances that immediately precede the element, and you are only counting them in terms of quantity but not taking into account their difficulty. Yu-Na is NOT just stroking in between elements--she's got SOMETHING preceding her flip and lutz, therefore it's a skating move. I don't care what you call it, it's not nothing.

    Transitions are not only about difficulty (and within difficulty they are not only about difficult entrances) and quantity, but also about intricacy and variety. Here's the ISU example on intricacy:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...GtSK9hCw#t=14s

    Oh, who's that skater again? And in one of Yu-Na's weaker programs, to boot.

    In her current FS, Yu-Na deserves a lot of credit for the seamless way that her choreographed spiral sequence leads into an Ina Bauer into the 2A, not just for the Ina Bauer itself but how it's all integrated together. Again, each of those elements--the choreographed spiral sequence, Ina Bauer and 2A--could have been standalone elements, but they're not. She deserves credit for that, credit which you're not giving her.

    You also need to weigh the difficulty of each transition, which you are not doing. A skater with spread eagles and Ina Bauers in between elements but not connected to a jump should get a lower TR score than a skater who connects them to a jump, which Yu-Na did in this case.

    Here's another ISU video on transitions, this time focusing on body movement transitions.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ7iGKKOGMo

    When you're using your whole body, that also counts as part of transitions. And that's what Yu-Na does throughout her program--she is using her whole body. The example that I also cited was also another example of a whole body movement--when the music changes tempo and she looks up, raises one arm and lifts the opposite leg; then raises the other arm and then the other leg, continuing to look up. Is it a move in the field? No. But according to the ISU video above, it's certainly an example of full body transitions. Which you're not crediting her for.

    I just think you're picking on the wrong skater for the wrong area. Akiko Suzuki's transitions? Legitimate area of weakness. Carolina Kostner? Yes, both in her FS last season and in her FS this season. Mao Asada in 2009-2010? Yup (and to some degree, her transitions are still not a strength, but they're better than before). Yu-Na Kim? Nope.

    I wonder that you're picking on Yu-Na instead of Kostner or Asada; it must be because you think she's a bigger threat. Therefore this treatment is kind of flattering in a bizarre but not entirely unexpected way.

    In the years leading up to the 2010 Olympics, you heard a lot about Yu-Na's lack of a triple loop and a lot about Joannie Rochette's complete set of 5 triples/attempting 7 (never mind that she never hit them all _cleanly_ in a major important international event), because that was Joannie's advantage versus Yu-Na. Rochette was more of an athlete than an artist, so picking at Yu-Na's PCS was not going to work in that case.

    Now you have Kaetlyn Osmond, who at this point is a good jumper but definitely her strength is in her performance ability; she lacks a loop so you can't use that against Yu-na anymore, she does not have a difficult triple/triple, she does not have a true lutz. She hasn't skated a clean FS in a major competition all season long. Osmond does have great transitions though so the first thing to do is go after the top competitor's transitions and try to make it seem like they are worse than they are.

    Of course, no one really appreciated Yu-Na's transitions in Gershwin or Homage, but never mind that.

    Do you feel Kim has a huge PCS advantage over Osmond based on their respective national long program performance? Since Krislite did not specify what "huge PCS gap" is, I am going to assume by huge, it is meant the difference would be at least 10+ points of difference in the overall PCS. Do you feel that is the case, based on their respective most recent performance at their nationals and why?
    Quite frankly, I think this might have been an interesting discussion on its own without your myopic focus on transitions, which at the end of the day are only one component in PCS. I like Osmond and her skating and I think she has a bright future, but stuff like this from her uber supporters is a real turn-off. Let her earn her scores and wins. There's no need to put down the competition.

  3. #18
    can't come down to Earth prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Do you feel Kim has a huge PCS advantage over Osmond based on their respective national long program performance? Since Krislite did not specify what "huge PCS gap" is, I am going to assume by huge, it is meant the difference would be at least 10+ points of difference in the overall PCS. Do you feel that is the case, based on their respective most recent performance at their nationals and why?
    I guess it depends on how the person defines a "huge PCS gap". In my opinion, a realistically expected 5-point PCS gap in the FS is huge. It means that one skater can pretty much fall on a jump one time more than the other and they would be roughly scored the same. That's a fairly large cushion.

    Transitions - I agree with you in that Kaetlyn does not have much of a disadvantage in this area. Her transitions are plentiful and well-incorporated into her Carmen routine.

    Skating Skills - YuNa. She glides better, with more power and variation in speed.

    Choreography - I'd give them a tie

    Interpretation - YuNa (IMO). Kaetlyn does have a bit of a cutesy teeny-bopper touch to her Carmen which makes it a little juniorish, although the sass works well in her SP.

    P/E - Hmm. This depends on the judges and what they are looking for. I agree that YuNa is still only half-baked compared to her highest potential, but she's still executing her movements quite well. Kaetlyn is a natural, captivating performer but she is still a bit rough here and there. I'd say, thus, YuNa still has somewhat of an edge but it's not a clear-cut one. But, I do think when YuNa executes all her technical elements well (e.g. jumps), this mark is amplified--because she does those so well--so if she's able to go clean, her mark should definitely trump clean Kaetlyn's.

    Thus, if they both skate well and fairly clean, YuNa could have something like a 5-point PCS lead over Kaetlyn. Definitely realistic.
    Last edited by prettykeys; 01-21-2013 at 12:50 AM.

  4. #19
    can't come down to Earth prettykeys's Avatar
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    BTW - as for the "rookie" comment - never underestimate the newcomers just because they're newcomers! YuNa was once the new kid on the block, too...and she charged outta the gates.

    That's one thing I don't like to see when it happens...when someone who is new gets underscored or is underappreciated just because the judges and fans aren't as familiar with them instead of evaluating them based on what they are putting out on the ice. YuNa herself was a victim of this, too. Yeah, I know it happens to most "rookies", but it doesn't make it right.

  5. #20
    Simply the best. l'etoile's Avatar
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    How about analyzing every top 10 ladies skater's FS transitions? That'll explain something.

    Quote Originally Posted by prettykeys View Post
    BTW - as for the "rookie" comment - never underestimate the newcomers just because they're newcomers! YuNa was once the new kid on the block, too...and she charged outta the gates.

    That's one thing I don't like to see when it happens...when someone who is new gets underscored or is underappreciated just because the judges and fans aren't as familiar with them instead of evaluating them based on what they are putting out on the ice. YuNa herself was a victim of this, too. Yeah, I know it happens to most "rookies", but it doesn't make it right.

    Which skaters from strong federations, i.e. Kaetlyn from SC, do not have disadvantage in any way.
    Last edited by l'etoile; 01-21-2013 at 01:07 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    I guess you forgot there is a rookie by the name of Jeremy Lin.
    This is off topic, but Jeremy Lin only average 2.6 points in his rookie season. Osmond has done much better for herself in her rookie season.

  7. #22
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    In my opinion Yuna's program is beautiful,and she skated beautifully. I don't want to see more transitions, then maybe the program will lose the harmony. Yuna's program isn't too busy, it looks so harmonic and calm. Enjoyable to watch. I don't think, that the figure skating's most important elements are the transitions, the lots of transitions.

  8. #23
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prettykeys View Post
    Thus, if they both skate well and fairly clean, YuNa could have something like a 5-point PCS lead over Kaetlyn. Definitely realistic.
    I agree with this. The difference between 7.75 and 8.50 in the LP, for instance, translates into a 6 point advantage.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTnoona View Post
    This is off topic, but Jeremy Lin only average 2.6 points in his rookie season.
    Lin had a brief burst of success with the New York Knicks in his second season, before being traded to Houston. To compare Jeremy Lin to three-time NBA MVP LeBron James is like... (well, never mind ).

    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    In my opinion Yuna's program is beautiful,and she skated beautifully. I don't want to see more transitions, then maybe the program will lose the harmony. Yuna's program isn't too busy, it looks so harmonic and calm. Enjoyable to watch. I don't think, that the figure skating's most important elements are the transitions, the lots of transitions.
    I agree with this, too. The CoP may like busy for the sake of busy, but I don't.

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    Here's my comparison (comparing two clean programs from both Kaetlyn and Yu-Na):
    SS: Yu-Na should receive at least 1.00-1.50 points more than Kaetlyn here (I would give an 8.75-9.00 to Yu-Na and around 7.50 to Kaetlyn), Yu-Na is obviously better in speed, quality of the edges and in the use of the blades, better technique in the cross-overs, more confidence on the ice.
    TR: I think that Kaetlyn here should have a small edge, like 8.50 for Kaetlyn vs a 8.00-8.25 for Yu-Na, Kaetlyn has really A LOT of transitions, and they are REALLY difficult, if you watch all the arm movements and the steps that she has in and out of every element and throughout the entire program, I think she's really the best in the world at the moment, in this category; Yu-Na is very good, too, but not as good as Kaetlyn, in my opinion.
    PE: this depends on how they skate, obviously, but assuming that they both skate clean, I think that talking about "Physical, emotional and intellectual involvement" they are almost tied, Yu-Na is better talking about "Carriage" and "Clarity of movements", Kaetlyn about "Style and individual personality", Variety and contrast" and "Projection", so I would give 9.00 to Kaetlyn and 8.75 to Yu-Na.
    CH: Kaetlyn is really better here, I have to admit it, for me it would be like a 8.75 to Kaetlyn and 8.25 to Yu-Na
    IN: Yu-Na is better here, more mature and sophisticated, so a 9.00 vs a 8.00-8.25.
    So, my marks would be:
    Yu-Na: 9.00/8.25/8.75/8.25/9.00
    Kaetlyn: 7.75/8.50/9.00/8.75/8.25
    So, the total for Yu-Na would be 69.20, for Kaetlyn 67.60: for me there isn't a "big gap", but Yu-Na still has the lead...

  10. #25
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    Well I do see preceding footwork before 3F- some choctaws,wide steps, and CoE. Also for the so-called mini spread eagle out of 3Lz, some skaters actually do use it as exit transition(Kostner comes to my mind). Overall the program is not packed with transitions and connecting movements, but certainly has reasonable amount of them and Yuna's skating skills with her speed only complement them.
    Last edited by EyesOfLove; 01-21-2013 at 08:49 AM.

  11. #26
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    Well said, jaylee!

    Quote Originally Posted by l'etoile View Post
    How about analyzing every top 10 ladies skater's FS transitions? That'll explain something.
    If wallylutz would give 6.5 for Yuna's transitions, other top ladies' transitions would be 5.0 - 5.75

    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    In my opinion Yuna's program is beautiful,and she skated beautifully. I don't want to see more transitions, then maybe the program will lose the harmony. Yuna's program isn't too busy, it looks so harmonic and calm. Enjoyable to watch. I don't think, that the figure skating's most important elements are the transitions, the lots of transitions.
    I agree with you! Yuna's program was beautiful. I don't want to see the program packed with meaningless, busy transitions.


    SS: Yu-Na is definitely better here. More power, speed, flow, better technique, qualities of edges. Kaetlyn needs to improve her SS. I'd give 9.25 to Yuna, and 7.5 to Kaetlyn.
    TR: Kaetlyn is slightly better. As FSGMT said, she has the best transitions (in terms of numbers) in ladies this season. 9.0 for Kaetlyn, and 8.75 for Yu-Na.
    PE: This is very subjective. Both did very well, but I think Yuna was better. Kaetlyn was a bit rough and unpolished compared to Yuna. I would give 9.5 to Yuna and 8.5 to Kaetlyn.
    CH: I'd give them a tie - 9.0 to both of them.
    IN: Yu-Na was more mature. 9.25 for Yuna, and 8.25 for Osmond.
    So, my marks would be:
    Yuna: 73.6
    Kaetlyn: 67.6

    I think Kaetlyn is a very talented skater. I really enjoyed her performance this season, but she still has many things to improve. She doesn't have difficult 3-3 and TRUE 3Lz (Hmm... she got positive GOE on Flutz here), SS needs to be improved. Some of her jumps are big and high, but I don't like her air position - not tight, slightly leg wrap. I thought her footwork was a bit slow and labored, but anyway she got level 4 and +1.05 for that.
    I was just nitpicking, Kaetlyn has a lot of potential to be great, she is Canada's hope indeed!

  12. #27
    Six Point Zero Krislite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    In my opinion Yuna's program is beautiful,and she skated beautifully. I don't want to see more transitions, then maybe the program will lose the harmony. Yuna's program isn't too busy, it looks so harmonic and calm. Enjoyable to watch. I don't think, that the figure skating's most important elements are the transitions, the lots of transitions.
    Which makes me wonder if the Transitions score ever takes into account penalties for excessive amounts of transitions.

    Quote Originally Posted by prettykeys View Post
    I guess it depends on how the person defines a "huge PCS gap". In my opinion, a realistically expected 5-point PCS gap in the FS is huge. It means that one skater can pretty much fall on a jump one time more than the other and they would be roughly scored the same. That's a fairly large cushion.
    [...]
    Thus, if they both skate well and fairly clean, YuNa could have something like a 5-point PCS lead over Kaetlyn. Definitely realistic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I agree with this. The difference between 7.75 and 8.50 in the LP, for instance, translates into a 6 point advantage.

    [...]
    I should have clarified what I meant by "huge" gap. Originally, I didn't have any particular figure in mind so wallylutz assumed the worst and thought 10+ points. I certainly didn't see it that way. To me a "huge" gap is a gap which allows for a "huge" mistake--like popping a high value jump such as the Triple Lutz or Triple Flip. That would amount to a 5 or 6 point gap, which you guys estimate would be the difference between the two.

  13. #28
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    In my opinion Yuna's program is beautiful,and she skated beautifully. I don't want to see more transitions, then maybe the program will lose the harmony. Yuna's program isn't too busy, it looks so harmonic and calm. Enjoyable to watch. I don't think, that the figure skating's most important elements are the transitions, the lots of transitions.
    We hear so much about transitions and not enough about some of the other components. Last I checked the ISU did not make transitions worth twice as much as P&E or IN... Not to mention that as you noted, more transitions doesn't always mean that they are of higher quality and/or better for the program.

    That's without getting into any hypotheticals about Osmond and Kim. Though I will be shocked if a teenager in her first senior season and with little in the way of intentional results will get near the OGM. Even if she is Canadian.

  14. #29
    Banned Reginald's Avatar
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    It think that it is unjust that one skater gets higher PCS because they have had better results on the international stage.

    If a rookie's performance equals a veteran's performance, they should be rewarded accordingly.

  15. #30
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    To me, it's kind of a two-way street. A skater gets high marks in skating skills because she has good skating skills. She gets high scores in choreography because she presents good choreography.

    The next competition she falls on a jump. But her skating skills and choreography are still just as good as they were. Is this "reputation?"
    Last edited by Mathman; 01-21-2013 at 07:10 PM.

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