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Thread: Osmond vs. Kim in PCS, a huge gap?

  1. #46
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    ^^^^
    This, I posted this on another forum and was blasted for "hating" Kaetlyn. Whatever.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    I was sort of thinking this in particular with Kaetlyn's Carmen program. I remember when Mirai got lots of criticism when she did her FS to Carmen in 2010 because she was too juniorish or not mature enough for Carmen. Yet when Kaetlyn does a similar program with that same perk, people argue that she's a great performer. For the record, I think there's room for perky and bullish Carmens too.
    Let's think about this for a second - despite skating to a similar selection of music, what are the differences between Mirai's Carmen and Kaetlyn's Carmen from a PCS standpoint? Is there any notable differences? Yes, no and why?

  3. #48
    Spiral Lover tulosai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    I was sort of thinking this in particular with Kaetlyn's Carmen program. I remember when Mirai got lots of criticism when she did her FS to Carmen in 2010 because she was too juniorish or not mature enough for Carmen. Yet when Kaetlyn does a similar program with that same perk, people argue that she's a great performer. For the record, I think there's room for perky and bullish Carmens too.
    This is my own personal bias showing through but I feel Mirai's Carmen program was light years ahead of Kaetlyn's. Katelyn has bigger but roughly equal in quality jumps to where Mirai's were at the time, and better transitions. For my money that's it. I'll call the choreography equal or at least a metter of personal preference. Mirai had better spins, better spiral/footwork sequences, better energy at the end (and arguably throughout- Kaetlyn is perky as anything but that's not the same as energy/stamina) more nuanced (though still slightly juniorish) interpretation, and stronger basic skating skills.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Is it because she competed only once under CoP, at the very end of her career when she was hampered by chronic hip injury?
    Love.

  4. #49
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Here's Mirai (2010 U.S. Nationals).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rJX0_QqCTE

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    Spiral Lover tulosai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Let's think about this for a second - despite skating to a similar selection of music, what are the differences between Mirai's Carmen and Kaetlyn's Carmen from a PCS standpoint? Is there any notable differences? Yes, no and why?
    I'd put them equal-ish in PCS (I'd tie them for choreography, give Mirai a slight advantage in interpretation and Skating skills, Katelyn a larger advantage in transitions, and give Mirai the advantage in performance/execution.

    However, as I noted above, in terms of the elements, I'd have Mirai over Kaetlyn. She has stronger spins, footwork, spirals, and better stamina and pacing throughout (note I am comparing the Carmen programs, not Mirai to Kaetlyn now). Kaetlyn has bigger jumps but Mirai's jumps were solid that season at the major competitions (other than Worlds) and I wouldn't give Kaetlyn a huge GOE advantage there. Overall, I think that season with both programs skated to their potential, Mirai and her program had the advantage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Is it because she competed only once under CoP, at the very end of her career when she was hampered by chronic hip injury?
    Touché. Yes, the "injury", some said it was due to an allergic reaction to the CoP. :D Still, it doesn't change the fact her outing under CoP was her worst showing at Worlds since 1995 Worlds as she missed the podium.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tulosai View Post
    I'd put them equal-ish in PCS (I'd tie them for choreography, give Mirai a slight advantage in interpretation and Skating skills, Katelyn a larger advantage in transitions, and give Mirai the advantage in performance/execution.

    However, as I noted above, in terms of the elements, I'd have Mirai over Kaetlyn. She has stronger spins, footwork, spirals, and better stamina and pacing throughout (note I am comparing the Carmen programs, not Mirai to Kaetlyn now). Kaetlyn has bigger jumps but Mirai's jumps were solid that season at the major competitions (other than Worlds) and I wouldn't give Kaetlyn a huge GOE advantage there. Overall, I think that season with both programs skated to their potential, Mirai and her program had the advantage.
    Sorry, I should have been clearer - this is not what I intended with my question. Irrespective of numerical marks or relative placement (who should be higher here or there) - can anyone identify notable differences between the two versions of Carmen by describing the noticed difference? For the purpose of this question, please ignore any perceived difference in the technical elements (i.e. jumps, spins) and focus instead on the various components of the 2nd mark.

  8. #53
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    It was the beginning of the end for Kwan - go back and read an interview with Rafael Artunian about working with Kwan - that basically she would get out on the ice, stroke around the rink and either shake or nod her head at Rafa on whether she was ABLE to work that day or whether the pain was too much. To imply that she was "injured" versus trying to finish out her career knowing she had a REAL injury is too much and beneath you as a poster, frankly.

  9. #54
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Touché. Yes, the "injury", some said it was due to an allergic reaction to the CoP. :D Still, it doesn't change the fact her outing under CoP was her worst showing at Worlds since 1995 Worlds as she missed the podium.
    Did you just accuse Michelle Kwan of malingering? How ridiculous can you be?

    Evgeni Plushenko also skated badly at that year's Worlds, for much the same reason - only his condition was bad enough that he had to WD. A year earlier, Slutskaya dropped to 9th due to medical issues - her worst finish ever. Skaters cannot skate their best when they are injured.

    And the fact that CoP rewards quantity and difficulty over quality is really not a point in the system's favor.

  10. #55
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Having just watched Mirai's Carmen again (the link is in post 49), my reaction is: It is a crime to judge this performance under CoP add-up-the-points.

    Here is something else interesting. Three skaters have been mentioned on this thread as having clean and uncluttered jump entries: Michelle Kwan, Evgeny Plushenko, and Yuna Kim. Um, OK, so that's three of the greatest figure skaters of all time. Does that tell you anything?

    If you look at Kim's epic 150-point Olympic long program, here are the "transitions" that she does into her jumps.

    3Lz+3T (none)
    3F (none)
    2A+2T+2Lo (Ina Bauer)
    2A+3T (spread eagle)
    3S (a few hops)
    3Lz (none)
    2A (none)

    Yu-na, si. CoP, no.

  11. #56
    Spiral Lover tulosai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Having just watched Mirai's Carmen again (the link is in post 49), my reaction is: It is a crime to judge this performance under CoP add-up-the-points.
    More love.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Having just watched Mirai's Carmen again (the link is in post 49), my reaction is: It is a crime to judge this performance under CoP add-up-the-points.

    Here is something else interesting. Three skaters have been mentioned on this thread as having clean and uncluttered jump entries: Michelle Kwan, Evgeny Plushenko, and Yuna Kim. Um, OK, so that's three of the greatest figure skaters of all time. Does that tell you anything?
    Mathman, I think you are reading tea leaf. You are seeing connections and causations where none exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by tulosai View Post
    More love.
    Fine, forget about PCS. Can you or anyone just note and describe any notable difference between the two versions of Carmen in terms of choreography and interpretation?

    If you look at Kim's epic 150-point Olympic long program, here are the "transitions" that she does into her jumps.

    3Lz+3T (none)
    3F (none)
    2A+2T+2Lo (Ina Bauer)
    2A+3T (spread eagle)
    3S (a few hops)
    3Lz (none)
    2A (none)

    Yu-na, si. CoP, no.
    Playing with fire once a year is good enough, not touching that again as if my life depends on it - not unless you want to unleash the bots and caused you to having to spend hours to clean up the mess afterwards.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Having just watched Mirai's Carmen again (the link is in post 49), my reaction is: It is a crime to judge this performance under CoP add-up-the-points.

    Here is something else interesting. Three skaters have been mentioned on this thread as having clean and uncluttered jump entries: Michelle Kwan, Evgeny Plushenko, and Yuna Kim. Um, OK, so that's three of the greatest figure skaters of all time. Does that tell you anything?

    If you look at Kim's epic 150-point Olympic long program, here are the "transitions" that she does into her jumps.

    3Lz+3T (none)
    3F (none)
    2A+2T+2Lo (Ina Bauer)
    2A+3T (spread eagle)
    3S (a few hops)
    3Lz (none)
    2A (none)

    Yu-na, si. CoP, no.
    Heh. Yu-Na has far more difficult transitions attached to her jumps than that--including a creative exit for her 3S, a spread eagle done directly after the 3F (yes...done on an inside edge). I'd call what she does after her 3Lz a creative exit. Her 2A is done shortly after the footwork sequence and is followed by a toepick hop--another creative exit. However, she does not have any transitions preceding her 3F (she lifts her skate up at one moment, but no, I would not call that a step) or her solo 3Lz, or her opening 3Lz/3T. These are just the transitions that are attached to jumps, not even the standalone transitions, which do count towards the overall TR score.

    Yu-Na's Olympic program was more difficult than her current FS, but it was also more difficult that any other FS she did before. What I find ironic about this discussion is that Les Miserables compares favorably in terms of transitions to Scheherazade and Miss Saigon, which like I said, worked out pretty well for her.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    If you look at Kim's epic 150-point Olympic long program, here are the "transitions" that she does into her jumps.

    3Lz+3T (none)
    3F (none)
    2A+2T+2Lo (Ina Bauer)
    2A+3T (spread eagle)
    3S (a few hops)
    3Lz (none)
    2A (none)

    Yu-na, si. CoP, no.
    If Yuna's TR score was accurate, it would still be a 147 program; still the best program under COP by a mile. Don't forget COP rewards SS like fast skating and use of edges as much as transitions, so just because a skater twizzles about the ice doesn't mean their program is COP-friendly if it's lacking in other areas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    You are correct in your identification of Choctaw. However, at this level if only a single type of turn is performed and nothing else accompanies it, then it is not deemed as sufficient to meet the requirement of connecting steps - otherwise, it simply becomes too easy. Put it this way, a skater can accidentally perform a Choctaw by simply entering a spin from back inside edge into forward outside edge - should that count as transition as well into the said spin and therefore merit extra bullet points? The rules are in fact quite stringent with regard to what satisfies as connecting steps and or comparable free skating moves in that even a single spread eagle or spiral is considered insufficient and therefore, cannot be considered as a difficult entry for the purpose of GOE (albeit, in practice during FS, that depends on how lenient the individual judge is). Since it doesn't satisfy the requirement as part of the GOE, it would also be difficult to say it meets the "variety, difficulty and intricacy" requirements of TR component as well.
    Since you referred to this response in your response to me, I am responding to you here as well. If I have the time and energy to respond to your other post, I'll respond to that one later.

    First of all, you're changing your argument. Your overall argument was that there were no "connecting steps and/or moves in the field" preceding the majority of her jump elements. You followed up with a rebuttal to my pointing out the steps before the flip saying, "Really? What steps?" Now that multiple posters pointed out exactly what they were and respond with bafflement to you that you didn't recognize them, you changed the argument that it's not sufficient to "meet the requirement of connecting steps." That's a different matter.

    You have a great deal of knowledge but the way that you apply your knowledge is very selective and deliberate, and I find your argument based on it incomplete and overall, I'm not convinced.

    These kinds of moves that aren't a listed element or a move in the field DO count towards TR--they just don't all necessarily have the same weight in terms of difficulty. Is it the same difficult as the Ina Bauer or SE? No, but it counts. There is no requirement that says all transitions have to be of the same difficulty level, in fact the ISU goes out of its way to demonstrate the different ways that different skaters can get the same TR score with varying levels of difficulty, intricacy, and quality.

    You are wrong in saying that if steps/movements don't satisfy the difficult entry for the purpose of GOE for a jump, that it doesn't meet the requirements of the TR component (implication being that it can't be considered or counted). That just flat out doesn't make any sense, of course it can count towards the TR score. It would most certainly count towards variety, it wouldn't necessarily increase the difficulty part of it, but it counts towards quantity which was your main focus of your original post.

    You're also referencing the "requirement" for connecting steps, which last I checked, is only a requirement in the SP for the jump out of required footwork in the SP. So it is irrelevant and it's inaccurate to mention it because we're discussing the FS and there are no such required elements in terms of jump out of footwork there. So again, you're shifting your argument around.

    However, because you referenced the requirement of connecting steps, and what is or isn't "deemed as sufficient to meet the requirement", that made me think of the required elements in the SP, this situation and skater popped into my mind: Patrick Chan's SP. In his last two competitions, he has landed a solo quad instead of what he really wants, the quad combo, which he landed at Cup of Russia.

    Patrick Chan 2012 Grand Prix Final SP
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...K8ZN38b8#t=79s

    Patrick Chan 2013 Nationals SP:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...Ynn5rOxA#t=69s

    If you compare his movements preceding his quad and that preceding his lutz, even from a layman's perspective like myself, there is no question that the steps preceding the lutz are very difficult and completely satisfy the requirement for the solo jump out of footwork. Only problem is, his lutz was a combo, and his quad ends up being the jump out of footwork. Wait, what footwork? I see far more basic moves and mostly crossovers heading into Patrick's quad as opposed to the difficult transitions that he has has into his lutz. It's not _nothing_, but if you apply the same level of scrutiny towards the level of difficulty of Patrick's movements prior to his quad that you do towards Yu-Na's steps movements to her flip (which aren't even _required_ in the FS, they are entirely optional), then does Patrick Chan satisfy the requirement? Personally, I don't think so, and taking into account the positive characteristics of the jump, I would thought he would get a 0 or negative 1, but the judges disagreed as the overall GOE at both competitions is very positive.

    So either the quad was so amazing that the judges altogether thought that the jump overall was worthy of +3 and took it down by 1 or 2 for the lack of difficult steps (can't say I agree with that, his quad didn't have the most stable landing in the world, hence why he didn't do the combo in the first place), they made a misjudgment/ poor calculation (possible, but interesting that they made it at two different competitions, one international and one national), or they deemed what Patrick does prior to the quad sufficient in meeting the requirement of connecting steps and rewarded it accordingly.

    Patrick Chan has the best transitions in the world overall, but what he does before the quad in the SP is not the best example of them. However, if the judges felt that was sufficient enough that they gave it overall +1.43/+1.67 GOE, then certainly what Yu-na does in the FS prior to her flip can at the very least count towards the overall transition score, especially since, I think it's worth repeating, there is zero requirement for the connecting steps to be at a certain level to precede a jump in order to "count", as there is in the SP.

    The only thing that can be considered here is the quality of the execution but that only satisfies 1 of the 4 sub-criteria within the TR component. In hindsight, the exasperate way I stated it make it sound I was dismissive of that. In part, that's because I felt jaylee was making up things that didn't exist, including the non-existent back spiral and the so called "mini-spread eagle". Thanks for making this good point.
    I was wrong about labeling elements but that doesn't invalidate their existence. I didn't make up the fact that Yu-Na did those moves. You chose to focus more on the fact that my label didn't fit instead of the fact that those elements existed, which is basically not seeing the forest for the trees. And truthfully really disappointing.
    Last edited by jaylee; 01-22-2013 at 03:08 PM.

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