Sorry to bore everyone. Very long post follows in order to fully address all the points and try to close as many loopholes as possible.
Now I had to go chase down a clip of another skater during the current season doing a similar move--which to be clear is not a back spiral. I am happy to admit that I was wrong about the name of the element, but not that Yu-Na has such an element in her program and that it counts as a transition.
I haven't wondered anything about why members are marking Osmond's TR above Kim at all, so please quit making things up or twisting things around to suit your true purpose, which clearly, based on your opening post, was not really to have an open discussion about the gap between Kim's PCS versus Osmond's (your opening post doesn't focus on anything about Osmond or her strengths, it's entirely about trying to put Yu-Na down) or a bizarre goal that her fans will "let her know what areas to focus on"--well, I know I don't have a hotline to Yu-Na. Don't elide the point or change your argument, which you so neatly do again here.Let's just say her competition is doing a lot more than that and you wonder why many members here in this thread alone have already started marking Osmond's TR above that of Kim? That's shocking - a young rookie getting a TR component higher than the Yu Na Kim, the reigning Olympic Champion!? Take it however you want, I offered some constructive feedback in the old thread with the sole intention that her fans will let her know what areas she needs to focus on. Yu Na got some work with regard to her TR in order to improve her record at World Championships, which for all her talent, she only ever won it once or she may yet lose to Asada once again. Mao has greatly improved her overall skating besides jumps. Instead, I feel you all just became extremely defensive and accusatory - totally closed to feedback.
Not trying to be defensive, but it was sincere surprise when I say there are steps before her flip, and you ask, "What steps?" There are skaters who have _nothing_ at all--preceding their jumps and/or their transitions are far more spaced out in between jumps. That's just not the case here.
What's "at this level"? Let's look at the last two world champions. Carolina Kostner received 7.96 in TR at 2012 Worlds; Miki Ando received 7.79 at 2011 Worlds. Actually, let's look at all of the medalists from the last two worlds and apply the same strict standards that you're applying to Yu-Na, so Akiko Suzuki and Alena Leonova. Yu-Na is doing more TR-wise than all of those medalists. Sadly, two of the ladies who had great transitions in the Olympic season along with Yu-Na, Laura Lepisto and Joannie Rochette, are not competing anymore.And I was correct. The fact she did a SE and one Ina Bauer do not make them difficult transitions, please see response to little_meatball. Besides, if I recall correctly, I suggested a mark of 6.50 not 0.00 for TR. While 6.50 is relatively low for her, it cannot be achieved without giving consideration to her overall execution and effort - it's just that more is expected at this level. Otherwise, Plushenko would be getting all 8-9s for TR by just showing up.
I am happy to repeat again that this particular FS of Yu-Na's is not as difficult as either Gershwin or her Homage to Korea program, but it's certainly comparable to her past work, Miss Saigon and Scheherazade (I actually suspect it's more difficult than those two programs, but I'll have to rewatch more carefully in depth to know for sure, which I can't because I have to waste my time hunting down videos of Ashley Wagner raising her leg as she's skating backwards just to prove a point), and it is most certainly superior in TR to just about everyone else who landed on the podium at the last two worlds.
And considering all of her transitions got Yu-Na a pathetic 0.28 advantage versus Miki Ando, who has to have had the weakest transitions of any world champion since...I don't know who...I therefore have to wonder why you're making such a big deal over Yu-Na's supposed lack of transitions versus her competitors, because you never raised such a fuss with the past two world champs.
Now, you did raise a fuss about Akiko Suzuki's transitions, who skated a great FS at Skate Canada, thereby leading some people to think she should have won overall over...who was it? Oh yes, newcomer Katelyn Osmond, the victor of 2012 Skate Canada. Hmm, what a coincidence. By the way, I have never disputed that Akiko Suzuki has weak transitions because that is a longtime problem of hers, but TR is only one segment, and she does have incredible PE/IN/CH. And before we restart THAT argument again, note that I never argued that Akiko should've gotten higher PCS at either Skate Canada or NHK.
You keep focusing on counting the number of transitions, when the TR score isn't just about the number of transitional moves. I pointed out the obvious because you keep avoiding it or downplaying it. A skater who has a spread eagle and an Ina Bauer directly into two jumps should get a higher TR score than a skater who has those moves but spaced out in between elements (all else being equal, which of course they never are). And I even posted the ISU video that said so. You're only focused on quantity with your "I count only 2 of 10" comment, and you didn't even factor in difficulty, which is why I find your argument to be unconvincing overall.Thanks for stating the obvious, of course it's more difficult to go into a jump straight of an Ina Bauer or Spread Eagle. I am simply agreeing with you because there is nothing to disagree about except to remind you the fact in this review, I have been offering constructive feedback - call it nitpick if that suits you better - does not constitute a dismissal of the things she has achieved and it doesn't change that fact such moves were far & few in between, which I count only 2 out 10.
My biggest issue with your original post is the TR score you gave is supposed to take into account all of Yu-Na's transitions and every criteria of transitions, yet in your supporting argument and justification for doing so and in this follow-up discussion, your focus and emphasis is only on transitions of a certain kind and a specific level of difficulty (bizarrely referencing "required connecting steps" that only apply in the SP!) and you don't factor in all the criteria. That's just not right. It certainly feels like a dismissal when you never mentioned difficulty to begin with, dismiss my point about it so easily, and go back to counting.
It's more common for top skaters to go from a jump to a spin, but it's less common for skater to go directly from a jump to a step sequence. The top 15 skaters may not need "a lot of crossovers or strokes" before their footwork but they usually do take a few. Regardless, I don't agree with your logic on the point about top 15 skaters; virtually all skaters at any level can do a spread eagle or Ina Bauer, that doesn't mean it doesn't count as a transition.While that is generally true, it depends. At the elite senior level, most skaters do not have any difficulty to transition from the exit of a jump with momentum into either a spin or step sequence. Rarely would you see the Top 15 skaters in the world needing a lot of crossovers or strokes to start their step sequence. Further to that, the seamless transition without needing much assistance or rest falls more under SS (this is an acceleration, which is defined in as a sub-criterion of SS) than TR as the latter is and I quote : "The varied and/or intricate footwork, positions, movements, and holds that link all elements." If a skater who went from a jump straight into a step sequence, then there is no linking footwork or movement to speak of and therefore, one cannot evaluate something that was not performed. That is also why in the GOE criteria, examples were specifically given and defined that extra consideration should be given when spin or step sequences (or equivalent free skating moves) immediately preceding the jump but the rule never defined or stated that a spin or step sequence immediately preceded by a jump should be given extra consideration. Please see ISU Communication 1724, p. 10 "Jump Elements" #2 Therefore, such execution does not set the said skater apart from the rest to warrant any special consideration for TR in my view.
In the ISU video on intricacy that I linked to before, you can actually see that they showed the whole segment of the climax of Yu-Na Kim's Miss Saigon finale--from Ina Bauer to double axel to the final spin. Why bother showing the spin if the only element that matters was the Ina Bauer into the double axel? Their point was that it was a seamless series of elements, transition to listed element to listed element, no break between the jump and the final spin--and that's when transitions become intricate.
I feel like I'm running around in circles here. I gave you multiple examples of other transitions; you denied that there was anything before the flip, then when confronted with multiple replies that there was, changed the argument into about its level of difficulty. I gave other examples and I used the wrong labeling, you corrected me, which is fine, but you never admitted that it was a move that ought to be counted as a transition. So I'm not sure what other purpose this will serve, I suspect you will just find a way to find some mysterious reason to discount these moves, but fine, one last try.All right, can you please give us other examples, using the youtube link, difficult transitions and/or free skating moves that Yu Na did that was not immediately preceding or after an element?
Here is an example that I referred to as a body movement transition, Yu-Na is using her whole body while she skates and she is not just standing still on two feet. This immediately follows her 2A combo.
I would probably characterize this more as a choreographic passage, but there are some skating moves throughout in addition to the upper body movement, which per the ISU definition, counts as a body movement transition. It's directly following her footwork sequence.
If she was moving her body but not her feet at all, then I would say that's a move that is clearly only for choreographic value.
I am saying that since those particular transitional moves are connected to jumps, they count more towards the difficulty part of the transitions score even if they don't count add towards your running checklist on quantity.I am confused. You just claimed that I only considered moves that were immediately preceding or after an element but now you are saying she did them connected to a jump unlike other skaters who didn't? So did she have more or not and were they connected to the elements or standalone?
It certainly felt like you were not giving her credit for upper body movement, because you justified your score of 6.50 (which judges ALL transitions) by only listing and focusing on "difficult" transitions (and you keep changing your argument in regards to what can sufficiently be counted as difficult, which I addressed elsewhere). I find your argument incomplete and therefore disingenuous.Once again, I need to remind you I did not suggest a mark of 0.00 for her TR but 6.50. Does Plushenko have good upper body movement and transitions? Yes, without a doubt. Does he have issue with Linking Footwork? Yes, because he is not doing much one-foot skating. My comments were focused what I deem the specific areas she needs to work on - the movements beneath her knees, not the ones above them. The fact I didn't comment on her upper body does not mean I am not giving her credit for them.
Oh, goodness, I am not paranoid, I am just calling it like I see it. You have so much knowledge but it's always carefully applied for specific skaters and specific situations, and it's not that difficult to see how differently you treat skaters based on nationality, which is what is disappointing. Your most objective posts are in regards to Canadian skaters compared to other Canadian skaters, and non-Canadian skaters versus non-Canadian skaters when not directly in comparison with a Canadian skater.I see that paranoia has got the best of you and making you a normally logical and rational person to make such absurd comments. Threat to who? Osmond? That's very flattering. I don't think anyone has seriously believed that Osmond is a threat to Kim's chances at the 2013 World. Besides, Osmond's goal is to finish top 10 at Worlds this year so unless Kim can be cloned and physically occupy all the spots from 1st to 10th, Kim is a threat to Asada or Kostner's ambition but not to Osmond.
I am saying you consider Yu-Na a threat for the world title, not specifically to Osmond though she's the intended beneficiary of this discussion, therefore you are clearly intent on exaggerating and distorting her weaknesses in order to...I don't know, make it known to as many people as possible. Not that I really think there is much link between what happens on this forum and what happens in the skating world.
You might say, "Of course she's a threat for the world title," but let's face it, not all comebacks work as well as Yu-Na's; see Lysacek, Evan and Weir, Johnny. Instead of giving her credit for a terrific comeback though you have spent more time focused on her transitions or purported lack thereof.
You could just as easily have started a discussion bemoaning the lack of true lutzes (not one of the medalists at the recent GPF had one, nor did any of the reigning world medalists), lack of difficult triple/triples and how they're not rewarded enough, the way that many ladies capable of doing a 3/3 in the SP opt to go for the easy route and do not attempt it in the FS due to the fact that combinations are not rewarded enough..but you didn't. These are all serious issues in the top ladies ranks today. Coincidentally though, these issues all apply to Osmond, so based on that, I would not expect you to start that discussion.
I think it's a bit odd, by the way, that one the one hand you cite how it is possible to win Worlds at a young age (referencing Lipinski and Baiul), list the weaknesses of just about every single top 10 returning skater out there, yet then state a very low expectation of a top 10 placement for Osmond at Worlds. Yeah, that's her goal, but what's your expectation? Based on all that and your posts in support of Osmond, you must be hoping for a better placement than that. And there's nothing wrong with that. I'm just pointing out that that's a possible motivation behind your post.
I wasn't one of those Korean fans who totally worshiped you, so the above is not relevant. (I'm American, for the record.) I have found most of your posts interesting and many of them insightful, but I have always detected a strong national bias in their context and purpose, a bias that only lessens if you are focused solely on comparing Canadian skaters with each other, or a comparison of non-Canadian skaters who were not directly in competition with a Canadian skater.Uh...excuse me, during the leading up to the 2010 Olympics, the Korean fans totally adored me to the point some people on GS thought I may be Korean. Thanks, I am very flattered but I am not. They sent me messages, asking me questions, politely and nicely - never the kind of animosity thrown at me after Kim ended her partnership with Orser and of course now as well, which I am frankly not sure why. I don't understand why you made up falsehood like this, I think this is quite rude and unfair because many people here in GS can be my witness to that and that's one of the reasons I came to this forum because a Korean fan asked me to come here. I call spade a spade. You'll see me defending Asada's win at NHK but I'd criticize her marks at Japanese Nationals. Kim has done great things leading to the Olympic so of course, back then, I pretty much only had nice things to say about her. I am dismayed at your animosity but having read many of your thoughtful posts, I am inclined to believe you simply got carried away and let your feelings colored your memory and will not take offense at what you just said. I hope that if you want to continue conversation in the future, it would be done in a more respectful and less accusatory tone.
It's not a matter of agreement or disagreement; there are many posters here that I agree or disagree with, but the pattern of your constant support of Canadian skaters and detailed arguments about the weaknesses of non-Canadian skaters is disappointing. In terms of execution the way that you put forward your arguments is very impressive and I'm not even sure many are aware of how expertly you revise your original argument and narrowly define things to support your point, to the point where it makes your overall argument incomplete and inaccurate.
Call me crazy, but I think someone who positions themselves as an expert and above a fan ought to be more objective and comprehensive in the way they apply their knowledge and not play into nationalistic bias and not engage in politicking, which is to play up the strengths of their own skater while playing up weaknesses of rival skaters. Why? Because as a skating fan I like and appreciate things about skaters from different countries; I see weaknesses in skaters from my own country, I see strengths in skaters from other countries, and in the case of Yu-Na, I see strengths and weaknesses in her skating even though she's certainly one of my favorite skaters.
I am sorry that you object to my comments but I do strongly believe that if Yu-Na Kim skated for Canada and Kaetlyn Osmond skated for Korea, you would never have started this discussion. There are many top skaters, such as the reigning world champion, who have fewer and less difficult transitions than Yu-Na but you focused on Yu-Na. I am not paranoid for being put-off by this; you had the option of just pointing out Osmond's strengths in the components area and I would have been happy to join in on the praise, in fact you can see my posts praising Osmond on this forum.
That's my honest reaction, just as I honestly reacted when a poster started a thread about the ISU "carrying out an inquiry" into the results of Skate Canada, I reacted negatively and said it was ridiculous. Had I known something like this was going to happen, maybe I would have never voiced my opposition there...but no, at the end of the day, no matter what political motivations, I try to be fair, and I thought that thread was unfair to Osmond. I am not the most knowledgeable fan, I make mistakes in commentary, and I have skaters whom I like and skaters whom I like less, but I am not one to negatively campaign against other skaters, either, or start a thread with ulterior motives.
What exactly do I have to be paranoid about, anyway? Yu-Na possibly losing? *shrug* Been there, survived that. I've been a skating fan long enough, two decades and counting, and sometimes as a fan you win, sometimes you lose. I would love to see Yu-Na win Worlds and everything beyond but having traveled this road before, I know it's a difficult road and it only gets tougher, it never gets easier. Luckily, she's given the skating world great programs, great performances, and a possible loss won't erase the amazing things she's done or the victories she's already had. I think it's fair to say that if Yu-Na doesn't win the OGM, I'm not going to be as bummed as I was when Michelle Kwan didn't win after '98, '02, or had to withdraw at the 2006 Olympics. I'm also not going to be as tortured as some Canadian fans would be if Patrick Chan somehow doesn't win the OGM in men's (poor Patrick, bearing the weight of all the Olympics losses of great Canadian champions before him).
In any case, this discussion won't change the fact that I think Osmond is a great talent and yes, I do expect her to be competitive and challenge for podium spots in the future. She has some strengths, she has some weakness, and I'll likely mention both in the future without the intention of exaggerating either. And I hope to enjoy her future performances and look forward to seeing her skate.
There is, to my mind, nothing wrong with feeling passion for a skater or skate. Where the articulation of such passion goes wrong, IMO, is when it lacks 1) rigor of logic and understanding, and/or 2) intellectual honesty and good faith. The lack of the former is generally termed "naive", while the absence of the latter is the sophistic, the casuistic, even, shall we say, the Mephistophelean.
There are examples of both in this thread, but happily, yours is not one of them .
Last edited by Robeye; 01-23-2013 at 01:45 AM.
Well I will say it's a testament to Kaetlyn that we're spending so much talking about her with all these threads springing up about her. While these threads were started by her clear fans, I don't have a problem of saying that clearly her skating DOES appeal to many and I don't blame people for thinking she has something special going on -- I do too.
I think it's important for me to take a moment and appreciate the fact that despite this back-and-forth from her fanatics and detractors (and everyone else in-between), Kaetlyn clearly has a great head on her shoulders and a wonderful coach to help her keep it there. I really enjoy her tweets actually -- she's clearly absorbing every experience and enjoying the opportunity to be with other skaters. She also has a terrific sense of humor. And I do believe all that is reflected in her actual skating.
Yes, there are things she could work on. But she has a clear desire to improve -- and has improved -- which will only fare well for her in the long-run.
I believe in the old journalists adage of "show, don't tell." I look forward to seeing Kaetlyn further fulfilling the promise that she has shown so far.
I'm quite happy she came back and rather seriously at that. Not like the comeback efforts of Evan or Johnny or Sasha, or even Olympic Gold Medalists from other disciplines. She's way ahead at this stage of the game than even Plushenko was in 2009-2010. What happened to Plushenko when he lost to Lysacek? Nothing, he's still one the greatest figure skaters of all time.
I agree regarding points b & c. A lot of skaters would have to screw up and yes if that happen, that would be pretty awesome. And I also agree that I would love to see Zijun/Kexin and Yretha/Mae Bernice at Sochi.
I'll be thrilled if she manages it, though.
I wonder how much longer she will stay with Ravi.
As for YuNa, I'm so thrilled that her comeback is so substantial. Few skaters besides her have been able to show so much of their former gifts after time away from competitive skating. Plushy comes to mind, and I can't think of anyone else right now. I would love to see YuNa on the podium this year, whether gold, silver, or bronze. I have two reasons: it's great when an athlete beats the odds, and she is one of history's great gifts to skating. The longer we get to keep her, the better.
Of those, Gordeeva/Grinkov were obviously closest to their former form and able to win another Olympic gold. The other former champions who made it to the 94 Olympics did fairly well but not as quite as well as when they had been winning ca. 1984-92.
Elaine Zayak didn't make the Olympic team but her 1994 performances probably would have done just as well in 1984 as what she actually performed then; the sport had just changed too much in between.
Susie Wynne (turned pro 1990), and Renee Roca and Gorsha Sur (having last competed in the 1980s, Sur for USSR) reinstated to compete starting in 1993 and seemed to be skating just as well . . . but meanwhile the Soviet Union had split and there were a lot more Soviet-trained teams they had to compete against, so the international results weren't as high.
Todd Eldredge was out of competition between 1998 and 2000, but he was able to come back to win bronze at 2001 Worlds and the 2002 US national title.
This is amazing. The whole step sequence is a "transition" into the jump.
Skaters should be allowed to do that and end with an unscored double jump outside the 8 jumping passes as part of the footwork sequence.
This is truly a remarkable discussion, and I love that it encompasses CoP beyond either Kaetlyn or YuNa's skating.
I particularly appreciate wallylutz, jaylee, little_meatball and gkelly's contributions because I'm learning SO much and my eyes are being opened to little gems I was blind to, before.
And...thanks for reminding me of Mirai's Carmen! Ashley looks so not thrilled after Mirai finishes, LOL (I'm not laughing spitefully; I totally understand it from a competitor's point of view.)
gkelly. I suspect you must have a pad of notes somewhere with references to specific skaters' performances?? You are like a figure skating dictionary.