Osmond vs. Kim in PCS, a huge gap?

[Mrs. P]

In fairness, people did comment on her at Nationals 2012 (where she won the SP, beating out LaCoste and Phaneuf) and after Nebelhorn (where she outright won). But I don't really see how the initial point is germane to this discussion.

Indeed I remember those comments from last year's Canadian nationals/Nebelhorn, but I don't think it takes away from your point IP RE: standing out as a Canadian lady.

[wallylutz]

PS. This is why people used to like to watch figure skating back in the 1990s.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFurTW8OHxM#t=1m3sec

Mathman, I know this may be a futile effort on my part but I have to say it. At some point, you are just going to have to stop lamenting about the past and move on. The world has changed, so is this sport. The days when skaters can get by with just jumps and a fairly empty program by posing and rolling on ice to pass for "artistry" are long gone.

[wallylutz]

Indeed I remember those comments from last year's Canadian nationals/Nebelhorn, but I don't think it takes away from your point IP RE: standing out as a Canadian lady.

I think she would stand out anywhere, not just in Canada. You place her at the most recent Japanese Nationals, her performance skills will still make her stand out even though some of the girls there have harder jumps.

[Mrs. P]

I think she would stand out anywhere, not just in Canada. You place her at the most recent Japanese Nationals, her performance skills will still make her stand out even though some of the girls there have harder jumps.

That I don't dispute. But I think IPs point is she REALLY shines even more because she's first Canadian lady since Joannie to have the goods. Again if she competing while Joannie was competing, would she be getting the same amount of buzz?

[Tonichelle]

Mathman, I know this may be a futile effort on my part but I have to say it. At some point, you are just going to have to stop lamenting about the past and move on. The world has changed, so is this sport. The days when skaters can get by with just jumps and a fairly empty program by posing and rolling on ice to pass for "artistry" are long gone.

We all wish for parts of the past - it's natural... I wish Scott was still skating.. Browning still had hair...

[prettykeys]

Mathman, I know this may be a futile effort on my part but I have to say it. At some point, you are just going to have to stop lamenting about the past and move on. The world has changed, so is this sport. The days when skaters can get by with just jumps and a fairly empty program by posing and rolling on ice to pass for "artistry" are long gone.

Haha!

Well Florent Amodio has done hip thrusts while standing still...and Miki Ando did OK for herself in the 2010-2011 season when she was pointlessly posing until the halfway point of her LP after which she crammed in like 5 jumping passes... and yet her Program Component scores weren't exactly demolished for it.

[wallylutz]

That I don't dispute. But I think IPs point is she REALLY shines even more because she's first Canadian lady since Joannie to have the goods. Again if she competing while Joannie was competing, would she be getting the same amount of buzz?

Why not? Because that's how Patrick Chan rose to prominence while Jeff Buttle was the #1 guy in Canada, the reigning Olympic Bronze medalist at the time. People were buzzing about Chan in the 2007-08 season more than Buttle. So much that, even Kurt Browning was quoted saying he wasn't sure if the hype is real or not. It was not until the next year that Kurt confessed that he became a believer. In that season, Chan beat Buttle at the Canadian Nationals for the title even though Buttle went on to win the Worlds that year.

[Mrs. P]

Why not? Because that's how Patrick Chan rose to prominence while Jeff Buttle was the #1 guy in Canada, the reigning Olympic Bronze medalist at the time. People were buzzing about Chan in the 2007-08 season more than Buttle. So much that, even Kurt Browning was quoted saying he wasn't sure if the hype is real or not. It was not until the next year that Kurt confessed that he became a believer. In that season, Chan beat Buttle at the Canadian Nationals for the title even though Buttle went on to win the Worlds that year.

You have a point, but I still maintain that Kaetlyn has some buzz momentum by standing out so clearly from the Canadian ladies. Never hurts to be Canadian No. 1 by a mile. (Or any No. 1 for that matter).

[Tonichelle]

You have a point, but I still maintain that Kaetlyn has some buzz momentum by standing out so clearly from the Canadian ladies. Never hurts to be Canadian No. 1 by a mile. (Or any No. 1 for that matter).

I think it would've made news to have two ladies who could contend in the top 10 - and more convincingly that Phaneuf!

[Taan]

http://english.chosun.com/site/data/...012300798.html

[Mathman]

To be fair, however, Nate Silver sadly incorrectly guessed that the Seattle Seahawks would be going to the Super Bowl. :sad:

But who could have predicted the finish of that game!

I agree with you that the concept of uncertainty looms rather large in skating. Of course, if one takes this too much to heart, a la Wittgenstein ("Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent"), one might be in danger of relocating to the Norwegian countryside and not speaking for six months. Commenting on future figure skating events would, of course, be out of the question. (Volleying the ball back into Mathman's rhetorical court, this would not be my preferred approach to figure skating commentary ).

On the one hand, I understand that pushing somewhat beyond the bounds of the (strictly) factually supportable can be a good thing, that there is a role for being "provocative" and a gadfly in stimulating discussions. On the other hand, there is the danger that controversy is pursued for controversy's sake, and it becomes a kind of empty intellectual baiting (a form of mental master baiting, in fine )

Now we're getting somewhere. Wittgenstein was quite critical of the work of Kurt Gödel on the foundations of mathematics. Gödel proved that if a system of axioms is consistent, then it cannot be proven to be consistent. But if an axiomatic system is inconsistent, then it can be proven to be consistent (hence inconsistent). Thus if anyone offers a logical proof that he is not contradicting himself, we can be certain that he is.

Godel did not comment on logic in figure skating. But this is why I get in trouble with Imaginary Pogue and others who want me to be logical – or at least consistent -- on this board.

[Krislite]

Don't we have too many threads on this? Seriously, there are several concurrent discussion threads all talking about Kaetlyn Osmond vs. Yuna Kim. I think this should be merged with "Kaetlyn Osmond: 2013 World Champion?"

[wallylutz]

Isn't Chosun a Korean newspaper? It's interesting that Korean media is talking about her now.

[ImaginaryPogue]

Slightly different argument, if I may

It doesn't matter if Kim doesn't get the PCS she got at the Olympics. That standard hasn't been met since then and barring something unexpected, it won't be. Compare that to the standard set by Lysacek (82.80 PCS for the LP). That has been met or beaten by: Abbott, Fernandez, Kozuka, Chan, Hanyu, Plushenko and Takahashi. It was beaten at that Olympics by both Lambiel and Takahashi, of course. Simply speaking, the field hasn't left her behind - not technically nor otherwise.

[Mathman]

Mathman, I know this may be a futile effort on my part but I have to say it. At some point, you are just going to have to stop lamenting about the past and move on. The world has changed, so is this sport. The days when skaters can get by with just jumps and a fairly empty program by posing and rolling on ice to pass for "artistry" are long gone.

To me, the sad part is that although the sport has moved on, it left most of its audience behind.