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Thread: 2013 US Nationals Senior Ladies LP

  1. #541
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    I never praised it, didn't watch it. Just know there were two disasterous programs in a row....
    Yeah I didn't praise. I don't normally comment on Ashley. She's just not a favorite of mine.

  2. #542
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I don't think that the people in the ISU and USFS who must deal with balance sheets and annual budgets agree with this view. Or maybe they do.

    Look at it this way. (a) You offer a product to the public. (b) They find it unsatisfactory. (c) You dismiss them as morons and go on producing more of the same.

    An unusual business model.
    I think what complicates things is that the USFSA has to promote skaters who have the skill set to achieve success in international competitions. Skating fans in this country has a long history of favoring artistry over technical prowess. Now that "artistry" is quantified, programs that we fell in love with before would not score very well under this judging system. So do the judges try to please the public by rewarding programs that are skated well but lack the content to score high under an international judging panel? I think that is a mistake, and at least the skaters who might feel they were undermarked have a clear sense of what areas they need to improve in. Yes, some skaters were marked more generously than others, but I think EVERY long program at Nationals was scored higher than it would have been in an international competition.

  3. #543
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    I do hope the networks show slo-mo URs more. However, I also hope fans are not duped by the incredibly stupid idea that says, "even though two skaters may appear by you to have similar artistic quality and similar programs, but one had several falls and the other skated cleanly, the falls aren't really a big deal, we as judges 'know better', so just deal with it." That would allow judges to use things that are often borderline like URs or things are that are subjective like the PCS to justify biased decisions. The audience is not always right, but most of the time it is right. Figure skating has always had a large performance/artistry side to it, and if the audience liked it, that's pretty good evidence that the performance and artistry were good.

  4. #544
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    didn't see skaters on tv. waiting for video but going by results scores,
    the scores for mirai are too high regarding pc wise, zhang are too long.
    if gracie skated as well (i want to see it) than maybe okay. with the mess ashley had her score is too high 2 fall and 121 total 188 with gpf 2 falls and only a 181. too high. see a 183 not a 188.
    should be tougher on the u.s skaters, the public is. the pressure is.
    i wonder if they will skate for it for the 3 just skate.
    gracie can be the it girl-but she will have to skate like she did at nationals to have a shot at the 4cc title,medaling and beating out mao, akiko, kaetlyn, kanako.
    she will have to be consistent.
    not poor mirai her 109 is to low. zhang should been a 115. not a 111.
    the u.s. read between the lines pick who they want on podium and adjust the scores so they fit.
    going into year it was ashley, gracie, surprise they got up there.
    why bother watching , having nationals just tell the public that you will put who you want on podium and why they are there instead of having competition.

    earn the title, we didn't pick the right one. please still states figure skating is rigged now more than ever. they want you up on top they will put you up on top and adjust the scores/ pcs wise accordingly.

  5. #545
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I don't think that the people in the ISU and USFS who must deal with balance sheets and annual budgets agree with this view. Or maybe they do.

    Look at it this way. (a) You offer a product to the public. (b) They find it unsatisfactory. (c) You dismiss them as morons and go on producing more of the same.

    An unusual business model.
    So what is more important - the business model and the public opinion, or the skaters who actually have to do it?

    Treating your customers like they have a brain seems to work in some industries, but not this one. Apparently some of the audience still doesn't get it. Protocols are available, the SP is available to view. And yet people still complain that the scoring is wrong. That's because they don't even bother to look at it.

    They just see "fall in LP" equals "lose". There's more to it than that. If you want the kind of sport where there isn't more to it, then make it a jumping contest (no SP, no footwork, no music, no halfway bonus) where the falls count 10 times more than a UR. That seems to be what the public demands, right?
    Last edited by leafygreens; 01-28-2013 at 12:41 PM.

  6. #546
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    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post

    Letting fans dictate the direction of skating and scoring because fans think that falls are the only thing that matters, has about as much credibility as someone at a public session asking if I'm going to the Olympics because I have white skates, or asking if I can do the "iron lotus" or a "camel toe". These people's opinions DO NOT matter.
    I agree that the number of falls is not and should not be determinative, but to say that the fans' opinions do not matter is wrong, unless figure skating wants to be like fencing or weight-lifting, which exist only for the participants and the Olympics. If figure skating wants to attract audiences outside of the Olympics, it needs to make the sport interesting to the spectators. It has changed because of audience reactions before. When audiences were mystified by Trixi Schuba winning gold over Janet Lynn, figures were de-valued and eventually, eliminated. I used to think that the 6.0 system was wrong for not counting the short program in the overall score, but I now see that it made a lot of sense. We are actually seeing a kind of repeat of the figures era, when the skater with the best long program doesn't win over a skater who skates with several falls or other obvious errors, based on something the audience hasn't seen. If something like the Gold-Wagner scoring (or the Suzuki-Asada scoring at an earlier event this season) happens at Worlds or the Olympics, I think there will be a change based on audience reaction--or at least I hope so.
    Last edited by jenaj; 01-28-2013 at 01:08 PM.

  7. #547
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    That change has to come from the ISU and not the USFSA. The USFSA has a duty to send athletes to Worlds who can flourish under the rules that the ISU has put forth. A program with multiple URs is going to get slammed by an international judging panel. Should the US ignore these flaws, reward this program, and send this skater off to Worlds just because it is what the audience wants?

  8. #548
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    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    So what is more important - the business model and the public opinion, or the skaters who actually have to do it?

    Treating your customers like they have a brain seems to work in some industries, but not this one. Apparently some of the audience still doesn't get it. Protocols are available, the SP is available to view. And yet people still complain that the scoring is wrong. That's because they don't even bother to look at it.

    They just see "fall in LP" equals "lose". There's more to it than that. If you want the kind of sport where there isn't more to it, then make it a jumping contest (no SP, no footwork, no music, no halfway bonus) where the falls count 10 times more than a UR. That seems to be what the public demands, right?
    Well, in gymnastics when the scores are in the 20 range these days, a fall is a one point deduction, and in skating when the points are in 200+ range, a fall is also a one point deduction. That tells the story. I'm fine with URs being heavily penalized, it's just that falls really aren't. I actually feel like 5 points deduction for a fall is about right.

  9. #549
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    I am proud of the US ladies and enjoyed the competition, however, not agree with the result. USFS has again used the international result to push Ashley for Gold medal. I was glad that it did not happen with the men's. I was holding my breath for Max Aaron and Ross Miner, was afraid that they would give Gold medal to Abbott. Luckily, there was justice.

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    I agree that Gold should have won, but to be fair, Gold had a disastrous short program with a fall and a single axel putting her 13 points behind. Wagner had a bad free with two falls and a two-foot and no 2A-3T. Had Gold landed her double axel in her SP, she would have won. So I'm not too outraged by the result.

  11. #551
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    For people who don't think Ashley is insanely overscored, take a look at Yuna at 2009 Skate America

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxNMhZugVAI

    She had 3 clean triples, 3 clean 2As, and guess what, she got 111.7 for that performance. And back then, GOE actually got you a lot more points.
    Wagner got 10 points more than freaking Yuna Kim and some people pretend to understand the score is appropriate? Seriously?

  12. #552
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    For people who don't think Ashley is insanely overscored, take a look at Yuna at 2009 Skate America

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxNMhZugVAI

    She had 3 clean triples, 3 clean 2As, and guess what, she got 111.7 for that performance. And back then, GOE actually got you a lot more points.
    Wagner got 10 points more than freaking Yuna Kim and some people pretend to understand the score is appropriate? Seriously?
    And Gracie got 20 more points. And Mirai only got 2 fewer points. What's the point of comparing one competition from 3 years ago to this nationals? Why don't you look at the protocols of THIS event and decide what you disagree with in particular. Sorry to break it to you but everyone was overscored in the LP by a good 5-10 points.

  13. #553
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    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    So what is more important - the business model and the public opinion, or the skaters who actually have to do it?

    Treating your customers like they have a brain seems to work in some industries, but not this one. Apparently some of the audience still doesn't get it. Protocols are available, the SP is available to view. And yet people still complain that the scoring is wrong. That's because they don't even bother to look at it.

    They just see "fall in LP" equals "lose". There's more to it than that. If you want the kind of sport where there isn't more to it, then make it a jumping contest (no SP, no footwork, no music, no halfway bonus) where the falls count 10 times more than a UR. That seems to be what the public demands, right?
    Well, you are probably right about all that.

    My problem is that I am cursed with a long memory. In the 1940s (OK, I can't remember quite that far back , Sonia Henie was one of the highest paid actresses in Hollywood. She couldn't act worth a lick, but she was a champion figure skater! When she died she left an estate of $50,000,000 ($475 million dollars in today's money, adjusted for inflation). Well. maybe Yu-na Kim will fare as well before she is through.

    In in the 1970s Janet Lynn, the 1972 Olympic and Worlds bronze medalist, was the highest paid female athlete in the world (all sports), with a 1.5 million dollar contract with Ice Follies (7.5 million in today's dollars.) Later in the decade every little girl in America wanted a Dorothy Hamill haircut and a Dorothy Hamill doll.

    In the 1990s the Champions on Ice tour had up to 80 stops. Today, zero.

    When Ottavio Cinquanta took office in in 1994 he negotiated a $20,000,000 contract for U.S. television rights and raised enough money that, for the first time in history, the ISU could actually pay prize money to skaters at major events. Now, basically zip from U.S. television.

    In 2002, under pressure from the IOC, Cinquanta rushed the CoP into service. By a questionable interpretation of the ISU Constitution, he decreed that the CoP proposal would be voted on by both the figure skating delegates to the ISU Congress and the speed skating delegates (Cinquanta was a speed skater himself). Even though the rules changes affected only figure skating, Cinquanta knew that the figure skating acting alone side would not vote for it. Cinquanta's rationale was that the money generated by figure skating also pays the speed skating bills, so speed skaters ought to have a say in it. (A little irony there, considering how it all turned out. )

    So now we tell prospective audiences and sponsors, if you don't like our Kool-aid read more protocols.

    My sorrow is that figure skating, in the U.S. at least, has become an irrelevancy on the sports and entertainment scene. This is not the fault of the scoring system (it's not anybody's fault, IMHO -- society's tastes in entertainment changes over the years). But I do think that the scoring system is a hindrance to future growth in popularity.

    The way it is now, almost the entire burden of support for figure skating (it is an expensive sport!) is born by beleaguered parents and local skating clubs. I wish USFS could have inherited some of Henie' $475 million to defray some of the present costs.

  14. #554
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    Having watched the programs for a second time, I still would have Gold above Wagner. Nagasu's FS was worse than I originally thought. Feel bad for her, but it is what it is. Hicks was as difficult to watch the second time as she was the first time.
    Last edited by Riemann; 01-28-2013 at 04:03 PM.

  15. #555
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    And Gracie got 20 more points. And Mirai only got 2 fewer points. What's the point of comparing one competition from 3 years ago to this nationals? Why don't you look at the protocols of THIS event and decide what you disagree with in particular. Sorry to break it to you but everyone was overscored in the LP by a good 5-10 points.
    And gracie was clean, so?
    The point is this, even Yuna Kim's PCS took a big hit when she was a mess. Wagner's PCS actually improved by 3 points. What's the point? That's the point.

    Sorry to break it to you, but if you are overscored by 5 points, and someone else is overscored by 10 points, that will make a difference. Do you understand that? Should I break it down further?

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