2013 US Nationals Senior Ladies LP | Page 23 | Golden Skate

2013 US Nationals Senior Ladies LP

emma

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 28, 2004
But I don't like the idea that someone who lands all of their jumps with poor jumping technique and cheated jumps should win. Quality and technique is important otherwise there WILL go the neighborhood. I mean, it's true that it's a spectator sport. But it's also a judged sport. And the audience doesn't get to be the judge. Probably for good reason. I don't know if this is the best competition to make your case when there was such a lack of a clear winner.

Anyway, it's skating. No matter who won last night the boards would have exploded.

Last night, I was trying to articulate some of the points you make here and above on this page and the page before - (way back in post 338).

At the same time, I do think there are now and were under 6 many examples of no clear winner (or a version of that, maybe clear winner but less clear 2nd and 3rd and so forth). And, I do like the you can mix up the standings significantly after the short (so here I'm feeling a little like Tonichelle might). Under 6 not only would Gracie been out of contention, I think Agnes would have been too....

So, I'm back to sitting on my fence - not liking a lot of things, liking others. I really did enjoy a lot of the skating last night and can understand a good deal of the scores (although it took MRs P's breakdown and then my own forced patience to get there), but I do feel a disconnect between the two (the skating and the scores) that is frustrating and difficult to articulate.

On a side note, my hubby who knows very little about skating watched the final flight, and his hands down favorite was Hicks (and to my surprise, he didn't think Agnes jumped so high - he was like, she's tall, but her jumps do nothing for me...) and he didn't really enjoy any of the others in that flight (so just sharing what a one causal viewer sees or doesn't see).
 

leafygreens

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
You said that in a joking way, but yes, that is one of the problems. A skater can build up such a big lead in the short program that the LP is irrelevant. Who would pay money to go to a sporting event (the climactic U.S. Nationals Ladies Long Program -- ta da!) when you already know who is going to win, no matter how badly they perform?

What's wrong with that? The SP is part of the sporting event. It's not the federation's or scoring system's fault if fans are too stupid to know there's an SP or pay attention to the results.

If it's that big of a deal, why doesn't the ISU get rid of the SP? I don't really want to get into that debate, but the skaters compete according to current rules which now include SP and LP. If fans are sooo frustrated then maybe they should watch the entire broadcast or buy tickets to the SP too.
 

Sasha'sSpins

Medalist
Joined
Apr 2, 2009
Country
United-States
USA has its two girls. Gold and Wagner are excellent choices to represent the Americans. Gold did great. I still think the scores are a bit high but that is National inflation. Sad to see the end of Mirai, the fall of Zhang, and poor Agnes too. I was a bit surprised how Wagner skated but the scores are quite high across the board. So many skaters over 110. I wonder if this is national inflation. Of course the dance scores were just outrageous.

How do you know it's the end of Mirai? Has she announced her retirement yet?

Nagasu has been under the weather all week and you could tell it was coming to a head this evening. She was sniffling through her whole FS

This is true. But even with a perfect skate I suspect Mirai wasn't going to Worlds. They held Gracie up so high in the SP especially her PCS scores and they did it again in the FS. She did deserved to win the FS but not with PCS scores of 8s and 9s. Those scores are a joke.

Anyway it's done. On to Worlds and hopefully great skates from Ashley and Gracie to earn 3 spots for the Olympics next year.
and they made a mistake not giving Gracie the title
I think Gracie might place higher than Ashley at Worlds

its like 2012 Worlds all over again with Ashley in Alissa shoes this time

Evan went to the Olympics without the National title and so did Mirai. Evan won of course and Mirai placed 4th well above Rachael Flatt. Gracie might not need the title-just two great skates.

For Gold to win the Olympics next year even with her best skate would require a Zamboni event of epic proportions, Kim falling atleast 4 times, many others falling atleast twice, etc.... She is nowhere near ready as far as presentation skills to even come close.

ITA. But Gracie has time to make massive improvements in her presentation between now and next year. It's possible.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
On a side note, my hubby who knows very little about skating watched the final flight, and his hands down favorite was Hicks (and to my surprise, he didn't think Agnes jumped so high - he was like, she's tall, but her jumps do nothing for me...) and he didn't really enjoy any of the others in that flight (so just sharing what a one causal viewer sees or doesn't see).

My dad hasn't watched competitive skating very much since 2002 - save the olympics - but he made some of the same points.

Interestingly enough he agreed with why Gracie was 2nd, and he's finally understood some of the positives of the CoP. (He still doesn't like it because there's too much to keep track of, but it's not as confusing as it was a few years ago ;) ). He never said who he thought was the winner, though. He was really impressed with Gold.

He also liked Caroline, but with Mirai he was even catching the underrotations.


Everyone made excuses for Mirai - they aren't giving Ashley that same courtesy. Hip pointer that she had to recover from and then illness - she wasn't as well trained as she should've been. Judges may have - rightly or wrongly - taken that into consideration and gave her the benefit of the doubt.


ETA: for me Gracie reminds me of Kimmie Meissner - right down to the way she (mis)uses her arms. Dick used to crucify Kimmie's arms, maybe that's what kept her from the top? ;)
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Looking at my own protocal breakdown (thanks for the shoutout emma), I can understand why Ashley won.

Despite the two falls, Ashley still did four triples and earned solid levels on her non-jump elements.

And one could argue that Gracie was overscored on the PCS side as well. Her best PCS to date has been 58+ at COR, so 61, is quite a bit higher and no doubt she wouldn't get that high of a PCS in international competition. Ashley got a 62 (and has high as 64 this season ) at GPF with two falls, so a 65 at nationals doesn't seem that high considering Gracie got a similar boost in her PCS.

As Ashley noted, it would have been more awesome if she had a perfect program with a standing ovation, but in sports sometime you just do enough to win and you breathe a sigh of relief.
 
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wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Looking at my own protocal breakdown (thanks for the shoutout emma), I can understand why Ashley won.

Despite the two falls, Ashley still did five triples and earned solid levels on her non-jump elements.

And one could argue that Gracie was overscored on the PCS side as well. Her best PCS to date has been 58+ at COR, so 61, is quite a bit higher and no doubt she wouldn't get that high of a PCS in international competition. Ashley got a 62 (and has high as 64 this season ) at GPF with two falls, so a 65 at nationals doesn't seem that high considering Gracie got a similar boost in her PCS.

As Ashley noted, it would have been more awesome if she had a perfect program with a standing ovation, but in sports sometime you just do enough to win and you breathe a sigh of relief.

uh...where did those five triples come from? You are not counting falls as Triples are you? Because by my count, she did three triples, four if you are feeling generous. But those two falls, never should/would/could have counted as Triples, that would be absurd. By that logic, I could have a program lined up 7 Quads even if they all splash on the ice.
 

Art&Sport

Medalist
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
Mirai was 4th and highest placement for us at the Olympics in a PACKED field in a final that wasn't a splatfest, so I have a hard time stomaching people calling her overhyped. As far as I'm concerned, she lived up to every bit of hype.

Yes, having issues and now getting over them (good for her), but no different than Wagner's long string of dubious-terrible performances prior to last year...

Unfortunately, Gracie's name makes it impossible for her to avoid being [over]hyped. That part is in brackets, because she's more than capable of living up to it. The ball's in her court.


Our interpretation of these situations and events is always relative to our perceptions. In the instances of Mirai and Caroline I'm referring to the way they were "over-hyped" as talented juniors, at a time when USFS seemed to be worried about finding the next Michelle Kwan in a hurry. Certainly, both Mirai and Caroline had/ have tremendous talent and deserved to receive attention, but not the huge amount of fawning, in-your-face attention pressed upon them prior to debuting in seniors. I think more "attention" should have been paid at that time to Caroline's serious technical issues on her jumps and her obvious lack of speed which apparently no one seemed to fully recognize as a problem that could hamper her career. No one seemed to be adequately addressing her weaknesses before she hit the big time senior circuit as a shining star and then dimmed too quickly.

Mirai of course has had significant success on the World stage, but it has been very uneven largely due to her unique needs not being fully met. Mirai has always had a quirky personality and she might have been better off staying with her original coach who she has apparently returned to in her comeback bid this season. Being so extremely talented at the age of 14 did not mean the weight of the national championships should have been visited upon Mirai at such a young age. It seemed to have placed a huge burden on her shoulders from which she seemingly has never fully recovered. Sure, the timing for both Mirai and Caroline was the luck of the draw. Such cases are individual, but maturity and grounding and having the chance to work on one's weaknesses should happen IMO before the heavy expectations begin to overwhelm. Under Frank it seems that Mirai was unhappy dealing with the constant pressure and focus on winning. Mirai is not like Michelle. She's like herself and she needed the chance to develop at her own pace. As it is the trajectory for both Caroline and Mirai has been upside down and backwards.

TPTB, some of us fans, and most definitely the media like to have our cake and eat it too, and then sometimes regurgitate it, nitpick it apart and wonder why it seemed like it would taste so good in the first place, especially with all the different flavors and varieties to choose from that arrive every so often fresh and hot right out of the oven.

Maybe it's another another apt cliche, "out of the frying pan and into the fire," that best expresses what the glare of the spotlight can be like at times, especially for young talented athletes who have yet to mature. It's definitely a roller coaster ride in a heat wave. That's why I admire Ashley for going through the maturing process while being the "almost girl," but not allowing that to flatten her. She decided to take stock of herself and seize control of what she desired to make happen, especially after TPTB had left her on the serving table to be thrown out in the trash or fed to the birds. Ashley fiercely shook off the stale crumbs and took command of her career. She went through the crucible of training under John Nicks and came out honed like a diamond. It takes hard work, sacrifice and having the right team around you. Even then so much can happen just as your dreams are on the rise and beginning to take shape.

In the case of Gracie, she's young too, but at least a couple of years older than Mirai and Caroline were when the buzz and attention hit them. Gracie is lucky to be a bit more coolly mature and poised, and fortunate to have a sister who also skates and who she's close to and who offers her advice and helps keep her grounded (not unlike Michelle had in Karen). Gracie also seems to have laid back parents and a capable, experienced coaching team, not to mention her extraordinary jumps, golden name, and statuesque beauty. All she truly lacks right now is maturity, competitive experience, consistency and above average presentation skills. But after last night, Gracie's surely on her way. Still she needs to be careful to not grow a big head, and to try and avoid getting burned by the heat. The pressure cooker gets turned up so high by the media, but then they blame the object of their gluttonous desire for not tasting flavorful enough and falling apart sometimes.

Some in the media were showing signs of considering whether or not to relegate Gracie to the compost heap before she gloriously sprang up once again to prove she might be able to more consistently "fulfill" expectations. Gracie withstood the pressure last night. And maybe that signals she's pretty well ready, got her armor on and is game enough to stave off and endure the high intensity heat of the more relentless flames heading her way. She may even be able to shine more brightly in their reflection.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
uh...where did those five triples come from? You are not counting falls as Triples are you? Because by my count, she did three triples, four if you are feeling generous. But those two falls, never should/would/could have counted as Triples, that would be absurd. By that logic, I could have a program lined up 7 Quads even if they all splash on the ice.

I miscounted. I need some morning coffee. I don't think it's generous to say she did 4 triples, the 3S wasn't her best but she still did it.

Honest mistake. But it doesn't change the fact that I don't have a problem with who won.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
Something I thought as I watched last night - and thinking back to GS and the arguments we've had over the USFS "dumping" Mirai and Caroline: it's the USFS' fault, in a way, that they faltered at all. They pushed them far too soon as the "top" and "best" of US skating. They weren't ready at all.

I'm not a fan of "wait your turn" judging, but they need to cultivate and protect the future of skating more. Maybe they are better at it than 6 years ago?
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
^ That's what I was sort of getting at when I started the "instant gratification thread." I fell like there's so much emphasis on getting all the triples quickly rather than developing the skater as a whole. That's why I like Hannah Miller's team. Though she has small jumps, she has done well because they worked on all aspects of her skating. Same with Ross Miner's team in Boston.

Really in a way Gracie Gold not making Nationals in 2011 was actually a blessing as it allowed her to develop her technique much more. When you look at her 2A-3T at Skate Detroit before the 2010-2011 qualifying season, you can see while she could actually do the jump, it wasn't as crisp as it is now and was quite forced. I think the textbook quality of her jumps came because she had more time to develop them rather than rushing to get it ASAP.
 
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wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
I miscounted. I need some morning coffee. I don't think it's generous to say she did 4 triples, the 3S wasn't her best but she still did it.

Honest mistake. But it doesn't change the fact that I don't have a problem with who won.

O.K., mistakes happen, no worry about that. The reason I said "generous" is because traditionally, a two footed Triple doesn't count either. Michael Weiss famously had his Quad Lutz invalidated because his free foot touched down even so slightly whereas Wagner's two footed landing was blatantly obvious last night. She didn't get punished very much for it last night, that's part of the outrage of the event however. She only had two clean Triples, the rest of her Triples (which she only attempted six in total) all had negative GOE, two of them resulted in bad falls. Not surprisingly, her TES is only ranked 8th overall on your compilation list but she managed to finish 2nd for the night. When we see a spade, we need to call it a spade.
 

sillylionlove

Medalist
Joined
Oct 27, 2006
Here is my take on last night....the judges did what they thought they needed to do in order to get 3 spots at the Olympics. Ill leave the rest of the thoughts to myself.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Folks, please don't give skaters disparaging nicknames. If you do, your post will be unapproved. Please post constructively?
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
O.K., mistakes happen, no worry about that. The reason I said "generous" is because traditionally, a two footed Triple doesn't count either. Michael Weiss famously had his Quad Lutz invalidated because his free foot touched down even so slightly whereas Wagner's two footed landing was blatantly obvious last night. She didn't get punished very much for it last night, that's part of the outrage of the event however. She only had two clean Triples, the rest of her Triples (which she only attempted six in total) all had negative GOE, two of them resulted in bad falls. Not surprisingly, her TES is only ranked 8th overall on your compilation list but she managed to finish 2nd for the night. When we see a spade, we need to call it a spade.

Well, she did two clean triples -- but she still rotated four. But as I said, she did well in non-jump elements -- she was third in that area.

For me, I'm not sure who else could have won, honestly. You have a situation where skaters 4-10 performed lights out and the top three didn't rise to the occasion. Courtney Hicks doesn't have the PCS, Christina Gao lost major points on non-jump elements. And Gracie messed up big time in the SP -- she was 13 points behind. That's much worse than Akiko, when she "just" 9 points behind Mao at NHK a few months back.
 

Reginald

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
This has got to be one of the most bizarre sporting events that I have ever seen.

Ashley Wagner gets food poisoned.

Mirai Nagasu has the flu.

Ashley Wagner smirks while Mirai bursts into tears because of her score.

You could make an argument for any one of the top ELEVEN skaters to win.

Christina Gao finishes 5th for the fourth straight year.
 

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
I was at the arena. :)

I would also add that for all the gnashing of teeth about Gracie's placement...in the ordinal system, she would not have been able to pull up from ninth to second at all. There is no way around it that 9+1=10 no matter how good your free skate is.

I was wondering about that. The short program was more critical under the old system than it is under COP--execute or be executed. Gracie would have been out of the running under 6.0.
 

Reginald

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
I was wondering about that. The short program was more critical under the old system than it is under COP--execute or be executed. Gracie would have been out of the running under 6.0.

And Caroline would have won overall under 6.0.

Not that it matters.
 
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