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Thread: 2013 US Nationals Senior Ladies LP

  1. #436
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    I haven't felt ignored or insulted. Gracie dug herself a hole in teh SP - for all the bitching going on about how the CoP gives the winner the gold in the SP - Gracie'd never have jumped up to second (and 1st in the free) if it'd been the 6.0 system. Too many awesome skates happened in the LP that would've continued to keep her down.

    Unless, of course, the judges played some games to make sure their "media darling" stayed within striking distance. But of course that wouldn't *ever* happen in that system.


    Not such a big hole as she ended up a close second to Ashley....

    I agree with both you and Mathman. this system sometimes leaves people feeling confused and like they didn't watch the same competition that the judges did. But there were just as many results in the old system that left fans griping. We're still arguing over Oskana/Nancy in 94 Tara/Michelle in 1998. Petrenko/Wylie 92 for some people.
    Last edited by Layfan; 01-27-2013 at 12:28 PM.

  2. #437
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    I haven't felt ignored or insulted. Gracie dug herself a hole in teh SP - for all the bitching going on about how the CoP gives the winner the gold in the SP - Gracie'd never have jumped up to second (and 1st in the free) if it'd been the 6.0 system. Too many awesome skates happened in the LP that would've continued to keep her down.
    I don't know, Toni. There were just so many programs that I enjoyed more than the winner's. Yasmin Saraj, for instance. Skater after skater tore the roof off the place. I was thinking, this is the best skating competition in the history of the world! I was over the moon when Caroline Zhang finished.

    Then the last three came out and -- pffft -- there goes the neighborhood.

    Oh well.

    (PS. I hope you get that "r" key fixed on your keyboard. )

  3. #438
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I don't know, Toni. There were just so many programs that I enjoyed more than the winner's. Yasmin Saraj, for instance. Skater after skater tore the roof off the place. I was thinking, this is the best skating competition in the history of the world! I was over the moon when Caroline Zhang finished.

    Then the last three came out and -- pffft -- there goes the neighborhood.

    Oh well.

    (PS. I hope you get that "r" key fixed on your keyboard. )
    But I don't like the idea that someone who lands all of their jumps with poor jumping technique and cheated jumps should win. Quality and technique is important otherwise there WILL go the neighborhood. I mean, it's true that it's a spectator sport. But it's also a judged sport. And the audience doesn't get to be the judge. Probably for good reason. I don't know if this is the best competition to make your case when there was such a lack of a clear winner.

    Anyway, it's skating. No matter who won last night the boards would have exploded.

  4. #439
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    I agree with both you and Mathman. this system sometimes leaves people feeling confused and like they didn't watch the same competition that the judges did. But there were just as many results in the old system that left fans griping. We're still arguing over Oskana/Nancy in 94 Tara/Michelle in 1998. Petrenko/Wylie 92 for some people.
    To me, it's different, though. I was hoping for Michelle to win, but Tara skated great, too. Nancy had more solid tech, but Oksana skated beautifully. Wylie and Petrenko -- both excellent.

    None of them fell down twice.

  5. #440
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I don't know, Toni. There were just so many programs that I enjoyed more than the winner's.
    Same can be said, though, by anyone of any generation of skating - well before CoP came to play.

    and the r key won't be able to be fixed. I need to either get a new laptop or get a bulky keyboard. it sucks.

  6. #441
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    But I don't like the idea that someone who lands all of their jumps with poor jumping technique and cheated jumps should win. Quality and technique is important otherwise there WILL go the neighborhood. I mean, it's true that it's a spectator sport. But it's also a judged sport. And the audience doesn't get to be the judge. Probably for good reason. I don't know if this is the best competition to make your case when there was such a lack of a clear winner.

    Anyway, it's skating. No matter who won last night the boards would have exploded.
    Last night, I was trying to articulate some of the points you make here and above on this page and the page before - (way back in post 338).

    At the same time, I do think there are now and were under 6 many examples of no clear winner (or a version of that, maybe clear winner but less clear 2nd and 3rd and so forth). And, I do like the you can mix up the standings significantly after the short (so here I'm feeling a little like Tonichelle might). Under 6 not only would Gracie been out of contention, I think Agnes would have been too....

    So, I'm back to sitting on my fence - not liking a lot of things, liking others. I really did enjoy a lot of the skating last night and can understand a good deal of the scores (although it took MRs P's breakdown and then my own forced patience to get there), but I do feel a disconnect between the two (the skating and the scores) that is frustrating and difficult to articulate.

    On a side note, my hubby who knows very little about skating watched the final flight, and his hands down favorite was Hicks (and to my surprise, he didn't think Agnes jumped so high - he was like, she's tall, but her jumps do nothing for me...) and he didn't really enjoy any of the others in that flight (so just sharing what a one causal viewer sees or doesn't see).

  7. #442
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    You said that in a joking way, but yes, that is one of the problems. A skater can build up such a big lead in the short program that the LP is irrelevant. Who would pay money to go to a sporting event (the climactic U.S. Nationals Ladies Long Program -- ta da!) when you already know who is going to win, no matter how badly they perform?
    What's wrong with that? The SP is part of the sporting event. It's not the federation's or scoring system's fault if fans are too stupid to know there's an SP or pay attention to the results.

    If it's that big of a deal, why doesn't the ISU get rid of the SP? I don't really want to get into that debate, but the skaters compete according to current rules which now include SP and LP. If fans are sooo frustrated then maybe they should watch the entire broadcast or buy tickets to the SP too.

  8. #443
    Custom Title Sasha'sSpins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    USA has its two girls. Gold and Wagner are excellent choices to represent the Americans. Gold did great. I still think the scores are a bit high but that is National inflation. Sad to see the end of Mirai, the fall of Zhang, and poor Agnes too. I was a bit surprised how Wagner skated but the scores are quite high across the board. So many skaters over 110. I wonder if this is national inflation. Of course the dance scores were just outrageous.
    How do you know it's the end of Mirai? Has she announced her retirement yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by sask8 View Post
    Nagasu has been under the weather all week and you could tell it was coming to a head this evening. She was sniffling through her whole FS
    This is true. But even with a perfect skate I suspect Mirai wasn't going to Worlds. They held Gracie up so high in the SP especially her PCS scores and they did it again in the FS. She did deserved to win the FS but not with PCS scores of 8s and 9s. Those scores are a joke.

    Anyway it's done. On to Worlds and hopefully great skates from Ashley and Gracie to earn 3 spots for the Olympics next year.
    Quote Originally Posted by sky_fly20 View Post
    and they made a mistake not giving Gracie the title
    I think Gracie might place higher than Ashley at Worlds

    its like 2012 Worlds all over again with Ashley in Alissa shoes this time
    Evan went to the Olympics without the National title and so did Mirai. Evan won of course and Mirai placed 4th well above Rachael Flatt. Gracie might not need the title-just two great skates.

    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    For Gold to win the Olympics next year even with her best skate would require a Zamboni event of epic proportions, Kim falling atleast 4 times, many others falling atleast twice, etc.... She is nowhere near ready as far as presentation skills to even come close.
    ITA. But Gracie has time to make massive improvements in her presentation between now and next year. It's possible.

  9. #444
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emma View Post
    On a side note, my hubby who knows very little about skating watched the final flight, and his hands down favorite was Hicks (and to my surprise, he didn't think Agnes jumped so high - he was like, she's tall, but her jumps do nothing for me...) and he didn't really enjoy any of the others in that flight (so just sharing what a one causal viewer sees or doesn't see).
    My dad hasn't watched competitive skating very much since 2002 - save the olympics - but he made some of the same points.

    Interestingly enough he agreed with why Gracie was 2nd, and he's finally understood some of the positives of the CoP. (He still doesn't like it because there's too much to keep track of, but it's not as confusing as it was a few years ago ). He never said who he thought was the winner, though. He was really impressed with Gold.

    He also liked Caroline, but with Mirai he was even catching the underrotations.


    Everyone made excuses for Mirai - they aren't giving Ashley that same courtesy. Hip pointer that she had to recover from and then illness - she wasn't as well trained as she should've been. Judges may have - rightly or wrongly - taken that into consideration and gave her the benefit of the doubt.


    ETA: for me Gracie reminds me of Kimmie Meissner - right down to the way she (mis)uses her arms. Dick used to crucify Kimmie's arms, maybe that's what kept her from the top?

  10. #445
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Looking at my own protocal breakdown (thanks for the shoutout emma), I can understand why Ashley won.

    Despite the two falls, Ashley still did four triples and earned solid levels on her non-jump elements.

    And one could argue that Gracie was overscored on the PCS side as well. Her best PCS to date has been 58+ at COR, so 61, is quite a bit higher and no doubt she wouldn't get that high of a PCS in international competition. Ashley got a 62 (and has high as 64 this season ) at GPF with two falls, so a 65 at nationals doesn't seem that high considering Gracie got a similar boost in her PCS.

    As Ashley noted, it would have been more awesome if she had a perfect program with a standing ovation, but in sports sometime you just do enough to win and you breathe a sigh of relief.
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 01-27-2013 at 01:31 PM.

  11. #446
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Looking at my own protocal breakdown (thanks for the shoutout emma), I can understand why Ashley won.

    Despite the two falls, Ashley still did five triples and earned solid levels on her non-jump elements.

    And one could argue that Gracie was overscored on the PCS side as well. Her best PCS to date has been 58+ at COR, so 61, is quite a bit higher and no doubt she wouldn't get that high of a PCS in international competition. Ashley got a 62 (and has high as 64 this season ) at GPF with two falls, so a 65 at nationals doesn't seem that high considering Gracie got a similar boost in her PCS.

    As Ashley noted, it would have been more awesome if she had a perfect program with a standing ovation, but in sports sometime you just do enough to win and you breathe a sigh of relief.
    uh...where did those five triples come from? You are not counting falls as Triples are you? Because by my count, she did three triples, four if you are feeling generous. But those two falls, never should/would/could have counted as Triples, that would be absurd. By that logic, I could have a program lined up 7 Quads even if they all splash on the ice.

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  13. #448
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateNater View Post
    Mirai was 4th and highest placement for us at the Olympics in a PACKED field in a final that wasn't a splatfest, so I have a hard time stomaching people calling her overhyped. As far as I'm concerned, she lived up to every bit of hype.

    Yes, having issues and now getting over them (good for her), but no different than Wagner's long string of dubious-terrible performances prior to last year...

    Unfortunately, Gracie's name makes it impossible for her to avoid being [over]hyped. That part is in brackets, because she's more than capable of living up to it. The ball's in her court.

    Our interpretation of these situations and events is always relative to our perceptions. In the instances of Mirai and Caroline I'm referring to the way they were "over-hyped" as talented juniors, at a time when USFS seemed to be worried about finding the next Michelle Kwan in a hurry. Certainly, both Mirai and Caroline had/ have tremendous talent and deserved to receive attention, but not the huge amount of fawning, in-your-face attention pressed upon them prior to debuting in seniors. I think more "attention" should have been paid at that time to Caroline's serious technical issues on her jumps and her obvious lack of speed which apparently no one seemed to fully recognize as a problem that could hamper her career. No one seemed to be adequately addressing her weaknesses before she hit the big time senior circuit as a shining star and then dimmed too quickly.

    Mirai of course has had significant success on the World stage, but it has been very uneven largely due to her unique needs not being fully met. Mirai has always had a quirky personality and she might have been better off staying with her original coach who she has apparently returned to in her comeback bid this season. Being so extremely talented at the age of 14 did not mean the weight of the national championships should have been visited upon Mirai at such a young age. It seemed to have placed a huge burden on her shoulders from which she seemingly has never fully recovered. Sure, the timing for both Mirai and Caroline was the luck of the draw. Such cases are individual, but maturity and grounding and having the chance to work on one's weaknesses should happen IMO before the heavy expectations begin to overwhelm. Under Frank it seems that Mirai was unhappy dealing with the constant pressure and focus on winning. Mirai is not like Michelle. She's like herself and she needed the chance to develop at her own pace. As it is the trajectory for both Caroline and Mirai has been upside down and backwards.

    TPTB, some of us fans, and most definitely the media like to have our cake and eat it too, and then sometimes regurgitate it, nitpick it apart and wonder why it seemed like it would taste so good in the first place, especially with all the different flavors and varieties to choose from that arrive every so often fresh and hot right out of the oven.

    Maybe it's another another apt cliche, "out of the frying pan and into the fire," that best expresses what the glare of the spotlight can be like at times, especially for young talented athletes who have yet to mature. It's definitely a roller coaster ride in a heat wave. That's why I admire Ashley for going through the maturing process while being the "almost girl," but not allowing that to flatten her. She decided to take stock of herself and seize control of what she desired to make happen, especially after TPTB had left her on the serving table to be thrown out in the trash or fed to the birds. Ashley fiercely shook off the stale crumbs and took command of her career. She went through the crucible of training under John Nicks and came out honed like a diamond. It takes hard work, sacrifice and having the right team around you. Even then so much can happen just as your dreams are on the rise and beginning to take shape.

    In the case of Gracie, she's young too, but at least a couple of years older than Mirai and Caroline were when the buzz and attention hit them. Gracie is lucky to be a bit more coolly mature and poised, and fortunate to have a sister who also skates and who she's close to and who offers her advice and helps keep her grounded (not unlike Michelle had in Karen). Gracie also seems to have laid back parents and a capable, experienced coaching team, not to mention her extraordinary jumps, golden name, and statuesque beauty. All she truly lacks right now is maturity, competitive experience, consistency and above average presentation skills. But after last night, Gracie's surely on her way. Still she needs to be careful to not grow a big head, and to try and avoid getting burned by the heat. The pressure cooker gets turned up so high by the media, but then they blame the object of their gluttonous desire for not tasting flavorful enough and falling apart sometimes.

    Some in the media were showing signs of considering whether or not to relegate Gracie to the compost heap before she gloriously sprang up once again to prove she might be able to more consistently "fulfill" expectations. Gracie withstood the pressure last night. And maybe that signals she's pretty well ready, got her armor on and is game enough to stave off and endure the high intensity heat of the more relentless flames heading her way. She may even be able to shine more brightly in their reflection.

  14. #449
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    uh...where did those five triples come from? You are not counting falls as Triples are you? Because by my count, she did three triples, four if you are feeling generous. But those two falls, never should/would/could have counted as Triples, that would be absurd. By that logic, I could have a program lined up 7 Quads even if they all splash on the ice.
    I miscounted. I need some morning coffee. I don't think it's generous to say she did 4 triples, the 3S wasn't her best but she still did it.

    Honest mistake. But it doesn't change the fact that I don't have a problem with who won.

  15. #450
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Something I thought as I watched last night - and thinking back to GS and the arguments we've had over the USFS "dumping" Mirai and Caroline: it's the USFS' fault, in a way, that they faltered at all. They pushed them far too soon as the "top" and "best" of US skating. They weren't ready at all.

    I'm not a fan of "wait your turn" judging, but they need to cultivate and protect the future of skating more. Maybe they are better at it than 6 years ago?

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