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Thread: 2013 US Nationals Senior Ladies LP

  1. #496
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    But my point is that she was praised all the way up to last night about that LP. Now it's being used against her by some to say the last two showings were subpar. IMO only nationals was subpar for her.
    Quote Originally Posted by aftertherain View Post
    Were those the same people who were praising her about being brave though? I've observed that a lot of the posters who praise skaters and the turn around and criticize them aren't the same ones as those who post try to positive comments amidst their shortcomings. It often seems that way because the slather on the negativity. I'm not saying this happens all the time, but I do feel like it happens enough to make others frustrated.

    I honestly don't know how I feel about the ladies' event here. Everything seems all over the place to me.
    Yeah I agree that the ones crticizing Ashley are 1.) Ones that always criticize her no matter what or 2.) Criticizing the system that allowed this result to happen.

    I agree with RD that Ashley backed herself into this result. She did just enough in the FS to win, but it wasn't the way she wanted to win.

  2. #497
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    The US system is ridiculous right now because its not even really very honest.
    I'll start by saying I'm biased because I really wanted Ashley to win. I do think Ashley should have won taking into account both the SP and LP. However, I could see making the case to have Ashley in 2nd. Ashley aside, I think the ranking of the remaining skaters was about right. The skaters who finished lower than expected had multiple URs. Whether you agree they should be penalized to the extent that they are, the fact is both US and international judges slam underrotated jumps and in most cases it is better to rotate fully and fall. So I don't think there is a big conspiracy to hold up certain skaters (other than Ashley perhaps).

  3. #498
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    Ashley was touted as brave and pretty darn good at GPF now that same event for her is considered a disaster? Come on people if we want to see the judges show consistency shouldnt we also?
    Two different camps. She fought through GPF. Here, she was trying to finish. There's a huge difference.

  4. #499
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Yes, but by default. On a good night, that program would be the best by far. Yes, she had those two falls, but that doesn't change that she scored high levels on her non-jump elmements, still performed the choreography fairly well (though I'm sure your opinion differs). She can score 128+ on that program, so it makes sense that she scored 121+ with her errors.
    That's the wrong way to look at it.
    On a good night, her PCS was in the 62-63 range. On a crap night, her PCS improved by 3 points here. Should be 60 max.
    On a good night, she didn't miss 2 jumps, didn't double foot the Sal. For the Sal, on a good night, she would get +1 GOE, say -1 GOE here, that's a difference of 1.50 at least. The flutz, another -3 or -4, the loop, another -3 or -4.

    So, on a good night, she should get 128, on a bad night like last night, she should get 128 - 6 for PCS - 1.5 for Sal - 8 for the two falls, that leaves her around 113.5, not 121.

    What kind of math are you using to calculate her scores on a bad night to come out with 121?

  5. #500
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    That's the wrong way to look at it.
    On a good night, her PCS was in the 62-63 range. On a crap night, her PCS improved by 3 points here. Should be 60 max.
    On a good night, she didn't miss 2 jumps, didn't double foot the Sal. For the Sal, on a good night, she would get +1 GOE, say -1 GOE here, that's a difference of 1.50 at least. The flutz, another -3 or -4, the loop, another -3 or -4.

    So, on a good night, she should get 128, on a bad night like last night, she should get 128 - 6 for PCS - 1.5 for Sal - 8 for the two falls, that leaves her around 113.5, not 121.

    What kind of math are you using to calculate her scores on a bad night to come out with 121?
    Given the inflated scores last night- I could see Ashley scoring about 130 or 131 if clean. So that's where I started.

    And I'll leave it that because clearly you don't agree with the result and I'm not going to waste my time or energy trying to convince you.

  6. #501
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    Quote Originally Posted by auga View Post
    As for the rest, I prefer Mirai to Ashley, but Mirai's performance deserved those scores. It's annoying to read people say "Skater X fell once and came 99743th whereas Skater Y fell three times and won." It doesn't work like that. Perhaps it's time for a skating version of the tennis "Hawkeye", so audiences can be shown underrotations. Or better commentators pointing them out.
    For many competitions this would be a good point. But not for this one. Gracie Gold had no URs. Courtney Hicks had no URs. Christina Gao had no URs. Yasmin Siraj had no URs. Caroline Zhang had no URs. None of these skaters fell, either.

    I don't think anyone is saying Mirai should have been ahead of Ashley.

    By the way, on the men's coverage just now, Tracy Wilson did do a little segment on why it is better (points-wise) to fall on a quad toe than to get a get it downgraded to a triple. (Not sure if the audience was paying attention, but anyway... )

  7. #502
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    For many competitions this would be a good point. But not for this one. Gracie Gold had no URs. Courtney Hicks had no URs. Christina Gao had no URs. Yasmin Siraj had no URs. Caroline Zhang had no URs. None of these skaters fell, either.

    I don't think anyone is saying Mirai should have been ahead of Ashley.

    By the way, on the men's coverage just now, Tracy Wilson did do a little segment on why it is better (points-wise) to fall on a quad toe than to get a get it downgraded to a triple. (Not sure if the audience was paying attention, but anyway... )
    I did notice that segment. I think it was good they explained that.

  8. #503
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    For many competitions this would be a good point. But not for this one. Gracie Gold had no URs. Courtney Hicks had no URs. Christina Gao had no URs. Yasmin Siraj had no URs. Caroline Zhang had no URs. None of these skaters fell, either.

    I don't think anyone is saying Mirai should have been ahead of Ashley.
    Mirai did a lot of URs, and she's the skater I was thinking of. Went on twitter last night, and there were lots of posts from people talking about how she was robbed, several saying she should have won and using the number of falls as criteria for victory.

  9. #504
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    Please let Gracie go to another choreographer who knows what her strengths are. Staying with Scott Brown isn't going to cut it. She needs imput from other people. Wow though once this girl really learns to skate and not just jump she will really be something.
    I have to agree. She needs someone like David Wilson or Lori Nichol.

  10. #505
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    I think it was a combination of nerves and setbacks including the whole food poisoning thing that kept her away from the ice just a week before nationals. I know it sounds laughable, but I've seen it in action (unfortunate) and it really can take a lot out of you. My husband was sick for several days when he had it.

    Really it seem Ashley has been through a lot this year -- she had a head cold during TEB, got a hip pointer during GPF then food posioning a week before Nationals...I'm hoping that she can stay away from all of those things for 4CC and Worlds.
    These superstitious things and unfortunate events can really play on your mind and body. I hope she stays healthy and positive!

  11. #506
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    Quote Originally Posted by auga View Post
    Mirai did a lot of URs, and she's the skater I was thinking of. Went on twitter last night, and there were lots of posts from people talking about how she was robbed, several saying she should have won and using the number of falls as criteria for victory.
    I forgot to say the main thing: Welcome! Post often, post long!

  12. #507
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trewyn View Post
    Wow. Not thrilled I let this competition take such a chunk of my night's sleep. Next year, I'm not going to set my alarm for 3 in the morning. I should be thrilled with who ended up 1-2. But yeah.

    I feel bad for Ashley. 4 falls in two competition? And we know she can skate with crazy confidence, her Samson & Delilah was incredible at JO, SA, TEB... I think with the hip pointer and the salmonella they probably rushed her Nats training a bit, 'playing it safe' is not really 'playing it safe' if you haven't been able to practice even (slightly) watered down content properly. I feel bad that people are shouting "undeserved". She's the first US Lady to defend a title the first time out since... Rosalynn Summers? We should applaud this accomplishment. The hole Gracie buried herself in the SP was too big, she rightfully takes away the LP and the silver medal + the world team spot; let's see how she goes from here. How will she deal with the pressure of trying to win back that third spot?
    I hope Ashley and her team make the right decision re 4 continents; would she need it to conquer her GPF and Nats demons in the freeskate before Worlds? Or does she need more time to regroup, find her strength and start training that 2A-3T and 3F-3T that sh's been talking about all season? I honestly wouldn't know which decision is the right one for Ashley. I hope John Nicks knows Ashley will/should listen to her Yoda

    Also; what's with the bitchy vibe I got from the sneak-peak backstage when Mirai was skating? From what it looked like (but maybe someone saw with higher volume), Ashley was sitting backstage looking angry and frustrated (at herself, I assume), in comes John Nicks, telling her that Gracie skated really well and Ashley should congratulate her. So up she gets, offering Gracie, who is looking really sour herself, tapping on her phone and generally ignoring two Ashleys (the other being Ashley Cain trying to lighten the mood, I think), very reluctantly accepting Ashley (W.)'s hug. These to girls smiled and had fun together at WTT right? When did the war began? On a happier note Ashley and Agnes clearly get along

    I think Gracie is just tired. Believe me or not, these girls are competitive. Not Tonya competitive but they are really very focused. I think everyone perceived Gracie as the "threat" and I believe some may not be as cool to her. Ashley is very professional and is very driven. I love her self-belief. Some may find her cocky but I think it's just confidence.

  13. #508
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    Well I wonder if Mirai, Caroline and Alissa will consider whether to skate one more year or will they wait to see if three spots are earned for the olympics. I am sure they will wait but one wonder if it is time for them to move on - still one wonders if Mirai who really looks like she could be a OGM sometimes will get it together. Wagner still was solid enough to win. Good work for Gold -her best - I sense she may be saving her best for world's - she is developing and peaking at the right time.
    I do hope she could peak with 2 flawless performances in Worlds! Good thing it's in Canada! Let's support our girls there!

  14. #509
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kissx3 View Post
    Random comments since the forum crashed last night...

    Such a strange competition there at the end. I feel like with all of her clout and international potential, Ashley did enough to win anyway, it just feels so weird because they gave Gracie such a massive score likely because they assumed the good performances would keep coming, especially from those expected to perform (ironically the ones who weren't able to) and so they had to get crafty with the number manipulation in the end which really soured the competition. I can't imagine how casual viewers felt about that one, it may have come off as a huge wuzrobbed debacle.

    You could see it all over her face that Gracie was disappointed not to win as well, but in a positive light, it's got to be better for her not to have the extra pressure of being the champion going to her first Worlds as a 17 year old kid, especially given how much she was feeling the pressure in this event. That excellently skated program seemed very cathartic for her, she just let it all go there when it was over. It's easy to forget this experience is all so new to her -hopefully this event was a good life lesson on managing expectations and she won't let them weigh her down so much going forward.

    I do think they would have given Zawadski the marks if she didn't bomb for once. Mirai maybe not (although you can also say Ashley was placed above Gracie just in case Mirai nailed it - there's no way they were ever going to leave Wagner off the Worlds team no matter how this competition went) but I still don't see them trying to bury her either way as some have suggested. Not this year they weren't at least. I love her but she deserved her score relative to most of the programs we saw tonight. So many visible errors and not in a "let's go to the slow motion replay" sense, it was clear on first viewing that that was going to get wrecked by the technical panel.

    Gao should have won at the very least a pewter. It just doesn't seem right to let a skater of such quality go unappreciated within her own country. On the bright side for her, it's only her second real senior season and she's been making good progress internationally so you've got to be kidding if you expect this to even get her to consider retirement.

    Most awkward camera shot ever? Ashley Wagner smirking as Mirai collapses into tears behind her. That is so gif worthy, I can see non-figureskating fans/forums playing with that one for years to come.
    I think Ashley was torn- she was happy she was National Champion and was sad to see Mirai.

  15. #510
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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    I never said Cohen and Hughes were perfect. You, however, said Kwan never would have won with 2 falls at Nationals when, in fact, she did. None of the contenders in 2013 was perfect either when you look at both programs.
    I wasn't looking at both programs, I was looking the one program. Kwan could not have fallen twice in the long program, completed only 4 clean triples, and won. Period. That is my point. Even if Kwan had been clean in the SP, she could not have won falling twice in the LP. At 2000 Nationals, Kwan was ranked 3rd for the SP because she fell, so the fall was duly taken into account. Then she completed six clean triples in the long, more than Sasha and Sarah, all of them fell, and she ranked first on the LP. Now with Ashley, she was ranked first in the SP even though others completed 3-3s because why??? Then she was ranked second in the LP even though she fell twice because why??? The judging was egregious. And yes, I am aware there are scores for quality of skating, components, artistry, etc. None of that justified the result in my mind.

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