01-26-2013, 09:30 AM
[QUOTE=Riemann;702769]Some nice skates from some of the guys, but the technical content was relatively weak. Worlds will probably not be kind to the U.S. men. (Anyone else think Miner might surprise and finish ahead of Abbott if they both get sent?) Sad but true. Some nice skating last night from the top guys but our top older Men like Jeremy and Adam don't have quads or are unreliable and someone like Max is lacking in overall skating skills. Lets hope Josh and Jason can up their technical content in the years ahead to match there other qualities which are already world class.
01-26-2013, 09:42 AM
Not to mention look how old Hanyu is... This being said I'm not buying the Jason Brown hype yet. I'm not convinced Jason isn't another Rippon, lovely skater, but without the technical goods to back it up. He doesn't even have a consistent triple axel yet (let alone a quad)
Originally Posted by Jammers
Farris though has the triple axel, and he lands the quad (sometimes)...So I think Farris right now is clearly the future.... I'm personally not completely writing of Dornbush either.
At this point I say the might as well start pushing Farris, getting him out there and getting some experience.
01-26-2013, 11:03 AM
It's definitely a possibility. But I think that Abbott will peak at Worlds this season.
Originally Posted by Riemann
01-26-2013, 11:12 AM
It's quite possible. At least he is playing it smart at this Nationals (so far!).
Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue
01-26-2013, 01:58 PM
I think, especially considering this field, the quad in the SP is not worth the risk unless you're really consistent with it or need it to be competitive because you aren't as strong in other areas like spins/PCS and landing hard content will help bring the second mark higher. Otherwise, I think it's smarter to go for a clean SP. I mean, we saw what happened to most of the guys going for quads....Keegan and Armin way down in the rankings, Mroz too, and Razzano I think was going to go for a 4t but then changed his jumps after falling on the 3a. To medal at Worlds right now...yeah you probably need to have a quad in the SP, but I don't think a Worlds medal is really likely for any of these guys, in which case they are better off going not trying the SP and having more confidence and ability to focus on just skating cleanly. A fall on a quad in the FS won't kill your chances of doing well, but in the SP with only 3 jumps, any fall is a big detractor, and if the quad isn't all the way rotated, it's even more costly, not to mention messing up the quad often leads to other mistakes in the program just because so often the falls these guys take on the quads are really hard falls!
Originally Posted by Riemann
I think that post Sochi the American men could become real contenders on the world stage between with retirements likely to happen and talent coming up through the ranks. Josh at just barely 18 is already a very well rounded skater, has the technical goods as well as the artistry, spins, lines, etc, he's also very driven and seems to have figured out how to compete well which is promising. Aaron is only 20 and is VERY strong technically, fairly consistent, and also appears driven and determined to do what it takes to get to the next level, if he can get the artistry and spins stronger, he could be a force. Ross is a good competitor and has the competitive nerves and perseverance to become the best skater he can be, even if he's not the most interesting or enjoyable skater to watch. He could stay past Sochi and if he continues to deliver and improve, he will be in the mix, especially when some of the big names have most likely retired after Sochi. Brown may not have the tough content that consistent yet, but he is capable of 3a and quads and there's plenty of time for him to get those consistent before Pyongchang. Further, both he and Farris due to their young age could potentially stick around until 2022, and where Jason appears to be a bit of a late bloomer, he might be near his peak in 2022 (he'll only be just 27, younger than Jeremy is now). Dornbush also has all the goods and at 21 it's not too late for him to develop a better competitive mindset, which is really all he needs to be a contender on the World stage.
Another thing is, post Sochi I'm not sure the quad craze will last. It's just tough on the body and I really feel that skaters like Chan, Hanyu, Takahashi, and Fernandez aren't going to be continually emerging in the coming years, to me, they are very, very special skaters, ones that you only see rarely and will be admired for their abilities for a long time to come. Idk. Just a hunch.
Interested for the FS. I wonder if Max and Josh can skate well for themselves and land on the podium (or near it even if they miss it), if USFS might start to more seriously consider/promote them for potential Sochi Olympic team members? The marks of Jeremy, Dornbush, and Miner make me wonder...I had felt that those scores could have all been higher if the judges really wanted 2 of those 3 to be the World and next year's Olympic team, but the fact that they kept the scores tight...idk, I was pleasantly surprised because not only did I feel the judging was really fair, but I also felt they were giving some of the younger guys a shot. Should be a fierce fight in the FS. I'd love to see all the men skate well because I really do think we have a lot of very talented men in the US and it's just a matter of delivering when it counts. Plus like I said, I think Hanyu, Chan, Takahashi, Fernandez, and even "good" Kozuka and Mura, set sort of unrealistic expectations for the level of men's skating at the moment just because they are exceptional talents, but most likely half if not more of them will be through competing after Sochi, so things could look very different a year or two from now. Plus our guys are primarily young and have tons of room to improve!
Last edited by silverlake22; 01-26-2013 at 02:03 PM.
01-26-2013, 01:59 PM
I don't agree. Adam was twice a Junior World champion and he has already placed as high as 6th at senior Worlds. In addition, he has two GP bronze medals, and a gold at 4CC. In many ways, the actual talent and "potential" of all three guys is fairly equal. The difference: Adam is more mature, has had more senior international experience, and he landed a beaut of a 3-axel last evening (his nemesis), plus all of Adam's in-between moves and transitional elements were superb (more mature and polished than Josh, and more mature than the firecracker stylist, Jason, too). Adam's ending layback spin ... OMG! Wowza
Originally Posted by Jammers
Josh, Jason, and Adam are all quite wonderful. The problem for Adam has been that he has yet to completely fulfill his potential (and there is not a lot of time for U.S. guys to seize their moment and be able to fully realize their potential; also once they've achieved buzz, it's hard for them to maintain their status at the top, especially in their own country). First Adam came up when Johnny and Evan were at the top, and then there were a number of great talents closely following Adam, in Ross and Richard. When Adam missed out on going to Worlds in 2011, he lost a lot of momentum, as well as rep.
One of Adam's biggest problems of course has been the triple axel, which seemed fine for hiim when he first debuted on the senior scene. But for some reason, perhaps he was never in full command of his technique on that jump and I suppose Morozov didn't pay enough attention to that for Adam. Obviously, Morozov helped Adam gain buzz and wins at junior Worlds, but it is the small details that mattered, not a rush to prominence without paying heed to all the basics necessary for Adam to have fully realized his potential on the World stage in seniors well before now. Adam's technical difficulties were compounded by the need for him to switch coaches so often. He had no choice but to leave Morozov. Orser seemed a good fit, but as it turned out, not really. Orser seems more interested in basking in the spotlight of guiding more established talents to podium placements.
Adam's tutelage under Yuka and Jason worked well, but I think the focus needed to be more on perfecting the 3-axel at that time, rather than trying to develop quads. Still, Adam had a fairly decent season 2011-2012, until Worlds. Even though his programs were especially wonderful, last year's Worlds is where his stock fell once again because of his mistakes and a low placement. I think Adam made a sound decision in switching to work with Rafael this season. Clearly, Rafael has helped Adam develop more confidence and improve his technique on jumps. He's got a wonderful 3-axel now, and I hope he's able to maintain the consistency on it in competition. This season, I think Adam has not only had to refine his jump technique, but he's also had to tweak his programs a bit more than he had to last season. But I think his short program as well as his confidence was much improved yesterday. Obviously, it's going to take more from Adam before he can manage to get fully back into good graces with TPTB, because there are just so many guys with talent in the U.S.
Overall, the major difficulty hampering many U.S. guys from fulfilling their potential is the fact it's so hard to get out of Nationals and develop the necessary experience on the senior international stage. It's definitely a smaller window of opportunity for up-and-coming U.S. guys than it is for male skaters in any other country, including Japan. Even though there are many Japanese guys who are extremely talented and it's difficult for them too to get on their World team, the fact is they all seem to have more support and backing from their federation, which allows them to focus exclusively on their training and to receive all the resources they need. Plus there is so much cheering and support for them throughout their country which should not be underestimated.
You know, I'm not saying it's an easy decision for the U.S. fed to make. Maxim Kovtun of Russia is being rushed out because he has more talent and potential than that exhibited by veterans Menshov and Voronov who are technically sound, but don't possess well-rounded artistic skills. Personally, I think Kovtun is being rushed too quickly, just as Gachinski was hurriedly anointed with the bronze medal when he doesn't have well-rounded skills. IMO, Adam is a much better all-around skater than Artur Gachinski, but due to timing and politics, and his own struggles for sure, Adam has not been gifted on the World stage in the same way that Gachinski was. Kovtun seems so far a more well-rounded skater but he lacks maturity. What he does have going for him in spades in Russian fed clout, and the prospect of the Olympics being held in Sochi in 2014.
I think Josh should be sent to junior Worlds, and IMO, US judges were a bit too over-eager to reward Josh with high scores for his sp. Of course, Josh is a wonderful skater who in any other country would automatically be on top and have the opportunity to slowly develop at Worlds (the biggest stage) every year. U.S. skaters don't have that luxury. Brian Joubert, Florent Amodio, Javier Fernandez, and many others (including some with lesser talent than U.S. guys do get that opportunity every year, e.g., now retired skaters Samuel Contesti and Kevin van der Perren). THAT MAKES A HUGE DIFFERENCE ALL YOU CRITICS!
Fine, all the critics can keep on saying "U.S. men don't have quads," etc., etc. Quads are important and need to be more fully developed, but that should not be the exclusive focus, though it is an important focus. IMO, U.S. guys are some of the best in the World, but the transitional period from Johnny and Evan to newer U.S. guys taking the stage has not gone smoothly largely because the US fed does not have an overall strategy that takes into account the ramifications of the depth of talent in the men's field domestically and internationally. Plus US fed historically does not politik well. Too often U.S. fed shoots themselves and their athletes in the foot/ skate blade.
While it might be a good thing to avoid scoring inflation domestically, will that necessarily help their athletes? Maybe it is the right thing to do. But in terms of the Worlds selection process, I don't think the U.S. has really examined the issue fully to keep up with the changing times. Plus, their late adoption of the new scoring system hurt their athletes. Also, their failure to get out ahead of other federations' athletes re the issue of quad development. The US federation probably needs to work more with top U.S. coaches on athlete development concerns.
The old way of everybody doing their thing on their own the best way they can, and the cream automatically rising to the top just doesn't work anymore.
Last edited by Art&Sport; 01-26-2013 at 02:02 PM.
01-26-2013, 03:52 PM
"Hold an edge and look sexy!"
You can tell Max Aaron models his skating after Brian Joubert, Kevin Van Der Perren, and Elvis Stojko. Very stiff, rounded shoulders, and only focused on technical elements. Typical Tom Z. pupil.
01-26-2013, 03:53 PM
Does anyone have videos of the SP?? Would love to see Abbott, Miner, Rippon, and Dornbush.
01-26-2013, 03:54 PM
I like pie.
NBC is highlighting the men's sp right now.
01-26-2013, 03:59 PM
"Hold an edge and look sexy!"
I am so in love with Joshua Farris. Flourishes, ebbs and flows in his choreography and style of skating. Musicality, body awareness, sensitivity, interesting positions and transitions throughout his program.
01-26-2013, 04:00 PM
I like pie.
I love Scott's passion for skating and the cheering of all the skaters. But compared to Mike Weiss... If NBC won't curtail the loudness, I think it's time to have Scott move on... or do the interviews and kick out the innane interviewers they have. Do analysis or something, not ITM commentary.
01-26-2013, 04:05 PM
"Hold an edge and look sexy!"
Wow! I wasn't expecting them to jump from Josh all the way to Jeremy. So, they will not broadcast Adam Rippon, Jason Brown, or Richard Dornbush.
No one interprets a character or piece of music like Jeremy Abbott. Jumps were a little tight, but everything was clean. No, Sandra, he did not 2-foot that 3Axel. I'm really concerned though that he showed up at Nationals with a spin that could have been invalidated at a Level 0 worth no points. It wasn't until he performed the element in practice and an observer not in his camp made Team Abbott aware. Why aren't Yuka and Jason more up to speed on the rule changes?
Last edited by museksk8r; 01-26-2013 at 04:10 PM.
01-26-2013, 04:21 PM
Ross Miner should have been given a downgrade for his triple axel.!
01-26-2013, 04:37 PM
Stuck in the Kwan/Cohen years
Is Adam going to be one of those skaters who never realizes their full potential?? I would truly hate that to happen to him. He can't be falling, he should be past these mistakes by now.I hope hope hope he pulls up in the LP, he is too good a skater not to be going to worlds. ...sigh..
01-26-2013, 04:42 PM
"Hold an edge and look sexy!"
Rippon's inability to skate a clean SP has been his constant downfall at Senior Nationals. Out of 5 appearances now, he has only ever skated a clean SP once, and that was last season under Yuka and Jason. Nationals is the biggest pressure cooker event of the season for US skaters. It's too bad Adam hasn't yet learned how to get a grip on his inconsistencies. :(
Originally Posted by KwanIsALegand