2013 Europeans Ladies LP

[let`s talk]

She wasn't miles behind on the TES. She had the best step sequence of the competition and better spins than Sot and Tuk.

Caro spins and steps in both segments: SP- 2 spins of level 4 and 1 of level 3 plus steps of level 4; FP- same as in SP
Sotnikova's spins and steps in both segments: SP- 3 spins of level 4 pus steps of level 4; FP- same as in SP
Liza's spins and steps in both segments: SP- 2 spins of level 4 and 1 of level 3 plus steps of level 3; FP- same as in SP
So no huge advantage for Caro in TES of non-jump element at all. She is actually behind Sotnikova.

[mary01]

Carolina has been inconsistent on her jumps in the past but this doesn't mean that her jumps lacked quality. When landed they are great jumps with the highest quality. An this is a fact nowadays as when she was falling apart.
And it isn't true that the outing at euros proves that she is again an inconsistent skater! I would say that it proves the opposite. She was nervous as she said but in the short she sidn't give up after the fall and skated a great program and in the long she landed beautiful jumps including a lutz (if she were the carolina of the past she wouldn't have landed it in any way) and she skated the program of her life before having the salchows when she was really tired and couldn't do them...

no one is denying the quality of Carolinas jumps she has right now. what's beeing said is that Carolina is and has been a VERY inconsistent skater, and her record perfectly showcases that. and with this I'm not talking about Euro's this year i'm talking about her whole career in general. it just seems that Carolinas recent success has made some people forget her past!

[LRK]

Total TES

Carolina Kostner: 33.36 (short) + 60.24 (long) = 93.60
Elizaveta Tuktamisheva: 29.47 (short) + 70.02 (long) = 99.49
Adelina Sotnikova: 37.25 (short) + 62.39 (long) = 99.64

So, the question is - over these two programs, should Kostner's PCS be approximately eight points higher than Sotnikova and Tuktamisheva? This amounts to 0.75 higher per component (approximately). I believe the answer is yes, and could make an argument that in some aspects, it could be even higher.

A somewhat random thought, perhaps, that just struck me - does this mean that Liza has the qualifying FP TES for Men's Worlds? I think it's 65 or something? - I don't know what it is for the short - but I'm suddenly curious to know how many ladies actually do have the TES - for SP and/or FP? But I admit it is a random thought indeed - but, just for the fun of it. (Seeing how many men actually struggled - I think there are a lot of the Euros men who did not make the TES - well, at least not at the Euros LP, when I was paying attention to it a bit, as the commentators happened to mention it.)

[FSGMT]

If you (a general "you", I don't refer to anyone specifically) keep talking about Caro's 2Ss, I will start calling Adelina the "single flip Silver Medalist" and Liza the "double lutz Bronze Medalist"! (Please, now, don't insult me, it's just a joke... )

[figureskate]

A somewhat random thought, perhaps, that just struck me - does this mean that Liza has the qualifying FP TES for Men's Worlds? I think it's 65 or something? - I don't know what it is for the short - but I'm suddenly curious to know how many ladies actually do have the TES - for SP and/or FP? But I admit it is a random thought indeed - but, just for the fun of it. (Seeing how many men actually struggled - I think there are a lot of the Euros men who did not make the TES - well, at least not at the Euros LP, when I was paying attention to it a bit, as the commentators happened to mention it.)

Just 5 men had a higher TES than Liza's at euros

[Moment]

I don't have a problem at all with Carolina's PCS advantage of several points over Elizaveta and Adelina. She does have indisputably superior skating skills and pulls off the choreography better than them.

I think they were all overscored in PCS, by a good five points in their respective free skates. It does seems like the judges somewhat wanted Carolina to win, as winning by less than a point difference is not a good look. So it could've gone both ways IMO. The judging wasn't so unfair with the placements, at least not for me.

[jamie]

Can I just remind people that Carolina Kostner massively pushed the sport forward in her first year as a senior at Europeans 2003.

2loop
3lutz/3toe
3flip/3toe (both easily rotated with height and speed)
2 axel/ 3 sachow
3 loop

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28djAK9g4-0

First time those 3 combos were ever done in the same program.


The year before, Mao Asada did this INASANE program (mostly underrotated and off the wrong edge, but crazy content none the less)
3 axel
3 lutz/3loop
3 flip/3loop/3toe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEyU1Baaaeg

Interesting that both of them were insane as juniors but had to rework their technique as adults. There is a clear argument to be put forward about pushing skaters too early and too soon.

Having said that, the fact that people criticise these ladies' technical ability is merely indicative of a short memory or little knowledge.

[Li'Kitsu]

She wasn't miles behind on the TES. She had the best step sequence of the competition and better spins than Sot and Tuk.

I'm not disagreeing with Carolinas win at all, but really... no to that bolded part. Caro is an amazing skater, but when it comes to spins, Adelina is at least on the same level. And the jugdes thought so too (SP: Adelina 12.12.; Caro 10.6 LP: Adelina 12.26; Caro 12.27).
For the steps, Caro isn't that much ahead of Adelina pointwise, about 0.7 more. So overall, Adelina did better in the non jump elements too

[shine]

Interesting that both of them were insane as juniors but had to rework their technique as adults. There is a clear argument to be put forward about pushing skaters too early and too soon.

Having said that, the fact that people criticise these ladies' technical ability is merely indicative of a short memory or little knowledge.

Kostner's technique has always been way better and more pure than Asada's. The only real technical shortcoming she's ever had with her jumps is the telegraphing of her flip and lutz.

[FlattFan]

Why unfortunately? Are you a Russian babies' fan? Then I have good news for you- Caro BV was in the second 10s of Russian Nationals. So yes, she is miles behind not Adelya and Liza only but a bunch of other R-babies. All the rest GOE tried to cover but couldn't cover the gap that huge- an embarrassing lead of R-babies in TES. All the rest was covered by PCS for the Green Queen.

Wow, you are really something. I have fact for you: the best 2 Russian babies went and lost. TES wasn't anything to write home about, either. BEST TWO.
The other Russian babies would have been slaughtered in the World stage.

Comparing some National inflated scores to a legitimate score is so nonsense.

Here I actually agree with you. That less than a point "win" of WC over some Junior debutante is such an insult for the system. Give Caro more!

It is an insult to Caro to win by so little.

[seniorita]

So how many ladies in the world have around 70 tes and 60+ pcs?

I think audience and judges were pretty amazed of what Liza and Adelina have done so far.

[Itcaip]

If you (a general "you", I don't refer to anyone specifically) keep talking about Caro's 2Ss, I will start calling Adelina the "single flip Silver Medalist" and Liza the "double lutz Bronze Medalist"! (Please, now, don't insult me, it's just a joke... )

All people are complaining but the level of these European ladies is very high. 131, 130 and 126 for the top three are scores I think I have never seen at Euros.

Transitions: Caro is playing it smart. Between her 3L and 3S-2T-2L there is really not much. But the last (overwhelming) impression is her fantastic step sequence and the choreo sequence with the (planned) 3S out of nothing.

Mao on the other hand has transitions before every single jump element. For me a bit overdone. If she did a little less I believe we wouldn't see the "<" sign after every second jump.

[Bartek]

All people are complaining but the level of these European ladies is very high. 131, 130 and 126 for the top three are scores I think I have never seen at Euros.

Transitions: Caro is playing it smart. Between her 3L and 3S-2T-2L there is really not much. But the last (overwhelming) impression is her fantastic step sequence and the choreo sequence with the (planned) 3S out of nothing.

Mao on the other hand has transitions before every single jump element. For me a bit overdone. If she did a little less I believe we wouldn't see the "<" sign after every second jump.

But on the other hand, should Mao skate her program cleanly with all those transitions it would be the best free skate amongst all ladies this season.

[mary01]

Can I just remind people that Carolina Kostner massively pushed the sport forward in her first year as a senior at Europeans 2003.

2loop
3lutz/3toe
3flip/3toe (both easily rotated with height and speed)
2 axel/ 3 sachow
3 loop

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28djAK9g4-0

First time those 3 combos were ever done in the same program.


The year before, Mao Asada did this INASANE program (mostly underrotated and off the wrong edge, but crazy content none the less)
3 axel
3 lutz/3loop
3 flip/3loop/3toe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEyU1Baaaeg

Actually Mao didn't use the 3lutz as a combination, so there was no edge call in her 3-3, some may have been marked slightly underrotated but she certainly has had PLENTY ratified too!

Interesting that both of them were insane as juniors but had to rework their technique as adults. There is a clear argument to be put forward about pushing skaters too early and too soon.

Having said that, the fact that people criticise these ladies' technical ability is merely indicative of a short memory or little knowledge.

I completely agree with this!

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Not to add fuel to the fire, but it's totally evident that the judges totally kept up Kostner for the title.

Her FS at Worlds last year got 65 pts of PCS and here she lands 4 triples in a program with worse choreography and gets 70.28 points. For comparison, Yu Na got 71.76 points at the Olympics with a perfect, way more technically demanding and certainly better choreographed and executed skate.

I think the most infuriating this is that Carolina has done better programs with wayyy better choreography than Bolero and with more speed and yet she's being rewarded with higher points.

You only need to look to her SP for blatant judging errors -- 4 out of 9 judges gave her -2 on the 3-3 combination that had a fall -- which is an automatic -3 in the SP.

That she wins with 4 triples is frankly a joke. And people's attitudes here (she should get at least xx points higher than so-and-so, even if she does badly) are the exact reason people vilify figure skating and its judges (who have the same notion that because she's a veteran she's automatically given an advantage). Think about what you say when you say she should be given a 15-point advantage... you're saying even if Kostner leaves out her 3Z, 3F, and a 3S, she should still get enough PCS to make up for that.