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Thread: 2013 US Nationals Senior Men LP

  1. #346
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    while it's not an excuse, I think we need to remember that Jeremy has been having back issues that weren't really sorted out until a month ago, and he stated all week that he wasn't truly competition ready ESPECIALLY for the long. He was quoted with saying "I just need to do enough to get through it and get to worlds."
    He wasn't focused on winning b/c he knew that mistakes were likely but he was hoping to do enough to get to the next competition...and when Max ended up skated lights out in the long, and Ross Miner once again produced a relatively steady clean skate, Jeremy's shot getting into the top two was VERY small. Yes, Jeremy is a bit of a head-case in that he's never really been truly confident, and add in the element of being very aware that he was under-prepared for nationals, i thought Jeremy did "okay." Who knows what another week would have done...but at least he showed up and competed and wanted to win a spot to worlds the fair way and not via petition (cough Denny/Coughlin cough...) As for him not going to 4CC, i'd imagine he was advised against going...4CC is in Osaka, Japan this year. two 16+ hour flights will NOT help Jeremy's back injury...

    side notes:
    - if only we could put Max Aaron's jump content right into Jeremy's program, that'd be a guaranteed medal winner at worlds...no joke. I still think it's impressive that Jeremy once again did his own choreography and did it to ONE piece of music. That program is better than some of the ones "top choreographers" have put out in the past few years. Jeremy has medalled (keep in mind natl's counts pewter) for the past 7 years at nationals and that's in and of itself something to be proud of...if it just doesnt' work out for him, he'd be quite the choreographer, he understands how to use music and TRULY skate to it.
    - It was really nice to hear Ross say during the press conference that he's starting to realize he IS good enough to be competitive and it's no longer a fluke. His skating may seem safe and boring when you compare him to the top international guys, but you can't faulty him for his strong and easy skating as well as his consistency. He has solid technique (including the best 3A - when he hits, of course - in terms of height, distance, and air position of anyone really), good presentation, good skating skills, and enough confidence that he can keep himself in the conversation. And as he pointed out his GP schedule involved the two most competitive GPs this season, so he got a lot of experience even if he didn't get the results he wanted. And let's be honest, that popped 3A cost him the title, and i don't think any of us would be truly upset if the final standings had been Miner, Aaron, Abbott, right??? but whatever, it's still all the same in regards to who we're sending to worlds...
    - yes Max Aaron is all about the jumps right now. BUT I think it would be wrong to say that's all he brings. He has speed, he has the right attitude, and his spins are fine (especially compared to other pure jumpers - Joubert, Bradley, Mroz, etc). He trains with Patrick Chan so he's also in an environment where he sees THE standard everyday and has something to work towards...he's not the best guy at the rink. In his interviews, esp the PC I got the feeling that he's got his head screwed on straight...he said something to the effect that he knows he's not competitive with the top guys artistically (i believe he was referencing Ross and Jeremy), but if he delivered on his technical score, esp the jumps (2 quads, one in combo and 7 triples...CRAZY), he could be on/near the podium. What he didn't count on was him skating a "perfect" LP and everyone else making mistakes. Max understands that figure skating in NOT only about the jumps, and he sounds like he's willing to work and learn to become better. And hey, let's be optimistic for a moment, maybe all he needs is a year...who knows
    - so happy that Jason Brown had a relatively good competition. That's one more 3A he's landed...and the sky's the limit as long as he gets the jumps
    - LOVE Josh Farris...goodness, if he continues to do what he does, Jason gets his jumps, and Max develops his artistry, the US will have quite a formidable trio next post-2014...also, hoping that Ross sticks around after Sochi, he'd have no reason to retire...so that's 4 guys that can get the job done
    - Jonathan Cassar's spread eagles...he, by far, over anyone else, benefits from the choreographic step sequence. yes we can knock him on his lack of a competitive jump arsenal. but year in year out, he's back at nationals doing what he loves, performing and skating for fans who appreciate what he DOES DO on the ice. it is a pity he doesn't get more in PCS from the judges...but he made it onto the NBC broadcast
    - safe to say, the US won't be getting that 3rd spot back...

    ps - sorry this was sooooo long and ramble-y...i need to get all my thoughts out since my friend who i normally discuss Nat'ls with is out of the country...
    Last edited by icebeauty; 01-29-2013 at 11:26 PM.

  2. #347
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    Did Farris leave Tom after he broke his foot?

    I agree with museksk8r and Fozzie Bear.
    Last edited by lavender; 01-28-2013 at 06:12 PM.

  3. #348
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    Overall i enjoyed watching the men's free alot more than the American women's. The men were so unique. All having different styles and there are such talented men i don't often get to see.I will be remembering Jonathan Cassar's spread eagle from outside to inside, and Jason Brown's spins. The US have a larger number of really talented men than Canada. Thanks for sharing Alexander Johnson Free, he moves so beautifully on the ice. Adam Rippon was wonderful to watch, very good skate for him. I do miss his blonde curls and classical program but he has such star quality on the ice. Joshua Farris will only get better and i would be surpised if he is not champion very soon. He is still a junior but shows such potential. Jeremy is one of the most artistic skaters, i love the details of his program. Iam sure he will give it one more try next year but i would certainly pay to see him in a skating show anytime. Ross Miner what i loved is he skates with so much joy and freedom. Did not look like he had pressure on him. I believe he had the most successful season this year. Max Aaron surprised me with his jumps, I didn't even know such a jumper existed in US men. What a great skate for him though i do think his PCS would be alot lower internationally.

  4. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    But his goal is 2018. That's 5 years away. If he was trying to make the Sochi team, I'd be like, yeah, with just getting the 3a at 18 and not trying the quad in competition yet, that is a little concerning. But he's not trying to go to Sochi and 5 years is an awful long time, so it doesn't really matter what his age is, more than he has the time to get his technical to where it needs to be by 2018, and he certainly does. Bear in mind how far skaters can come in just a few seasons, Javi, Michal, and Flo weren't churning out quads like they are now at 18, and there scores and placements at that age were nothing to write home about either, but now look where they are now just a few years later. Maybe Jason never will have the difficult tech down solid, but he very well could and there is no reason to worry about it NOW, come back in 3 or 4 years and then we can reevaluate it.
    In fairness, it was his trouble with the triple axel that made them re-evaluate his plans. They were aiming for 2014 initially.

    Quote Originally Posted by blue_idealist View Post
    Hey, Shawn Sawyer landed his first completely clean triple axel at.. 25?
    Of course, and he got to go to the Olympics as well. Except Sawyer lucked out in that Canada had a shallow field but two solid skaters that could earn three spots for Worlds. The shallow field meant he was still able to get competitive experience and go to Worlds. Three spots meant he wasn't going to be dumped (and it's not like he made it every year either). The USA's field is so tough that a skater like Jeremy Abbott can't make it to Worlds consistently (whereas Canada's lesser equivalent - Emmanuel Sandhu - would), but shallow that they can't earn three spots consistently.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I read back in this thread at the outrage over Aaron's win. I don't get it, the guy had a minor spin error in the SP after landing 4S-3T and his 3A. Then he has a minor error on one 3A in the free after landing another 3A and both 4S. Max Aaron outskated the competition and as such, deserved the win.

    Jeremy played it safe in the short and was given the lead - a 3 point lead with no quad, at that. He doubled jumps in the long, and had an UR'ed quad with a fall. He was outscored technically by 20 points (SP+FS) by Aaron.

    Whether he will get slaughtered internationally is negligible -- and kind of not cool to question since people are essentially saying the judges should have manipulated their PCS scores to make Jeremy make the team. Aaron was the best skater on both days and thus won.

    I think Miner and Abbott should have had a skate off at 4CC for the 2nd spot. Aaron earned his trip.

    I suspect either a) Jeremy turned down 4CC to do soul-searching as people say, or b) USFS decided not to send him to 4CC lest he place higher than Aaron and Miner, leaving them with a difficult choice. What I'm interested in is if Aaron bombs at 4CC what USFS will do with Abbott -- who still got a 2nd on the GP this year.
    Let's be clear: I'm saying the judges manipulated Max Aaron's PCS to suit his extraordinary technical content, not his epic performance quality or interpretation or choreography or skating skills or transitions.

  5. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by Art&Sport View Post
    Yeah, I get you. I too love Ross so much. He let it slip out of his hands by popping that second 3-axel, which has been a money jump for him. At least Ross is going to Worlds and has a chance to skate great there. The U.S. title is still up for grabs next year in Ross' backyard.
    Ross is a class act, both on and off the ice.
    Last edited by Eislauf; 01-28-2013 at 07:25 PM.

  6. #351
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    For what it's worth, Javier Fernandez landed THREE QUADS in his free skate (one in combo with a 3T!) this weekend at European's. He won the title. The USFSA knew they couldn't send Abbott to World's.

  7. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fozzie Bear View Post
    Re: Aaron: Wonderful jumps, but he has the worst presentation skills of any National champ I can remember. He completely half-assed the little bit of choreography that he did have. Had he been scored correctly in PCS, Miner would have won.
    To me, Aaron's program popped and Miner's didn't. I don't know about ticking off CoP bullets on the PCS side, but Aaron's performance held my interest for four-and-a-half minutes.

    I am not worried about Worlds. Go, skate, what happens happens.

  8. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    I think a legitimate case could have been made that Farris deserved silver ahead of Miner, but no way would USFSA send 2 complete newbies to Senior Worlds. Plus, I don't think Josh ever planned it in his hand of cards to be a member of the senior World team. He had talked all season long about wanting to go to Junior Worlds and hopefully win the title there.
    Exactly and while I think he should have placed ahead of Jeremy at least in the FS, placing him 2nd or 3rd overall would make it harder to justify his JW selection, which he said he wanted anyways and the USFS wisely would want him there as well, considering how good he is and how few other strong guys there are age eligible for that event, so in the end, I think it was okay. Josh was thrilled with his scores and overall placement so I don't think he feels robbed. I think if he had stood up on the quad, they would have had to give 2nd to him, but where he fell, there was a bit more wiggle room. He also got level 3 on one of his spins and level 2 on the footwork, plus the two flip edge calls (odd how he didn't get it in the SP, also up to this point he's done two 3lz in his FS instead of 2 3f but maybe he was having lutz trouble and switched it or something), so the little things did add up. The one promising thing though is I thought of all the top 6 or so, Josh's FS scores were the ones most likely to be close to replicated with a similar skate internationally. Miner and Aaron will not get the PCS they got at Nationals internationally, but Josh's 78+ components score didn't seem that inflated, he's gotten over 71 before at a international junior event, and that TES was really strong even with the 4t fall, edge calls, and missing two levels. So that's really promising.

    He reminds me a little bit of Michal Brezina during his first senior season. Next season I'd like to see him work with a more known choreographer and maybe try a new type of music for one of his programs to see if he has it in him to become a little less white bread. Michal seems to be getting back on track but I feel what held him back a few years ago and led to all those 4th place finishes was his image as being a bit bland, you know, the slight and nice looking teenager with beautiful jumps, well-rounded skating, and a great 3a, but doesn't stand out that much otherwise. I feel like that's sort of what Josh is to most people now, but given his age and ascent, I think he can be a lot more, it just needs to be harnessed.

    I also think Max may have some untapped artistic potential, and if he were to be freed from Tom Z and get some voidy choreo, who knows, he could be more than Max killer jumps Aaron.

  9. #354
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    Long time lurker... posting for the first time. My views on the Men's Competition:

    The whole point of a competition is whether an athlete can perform on demand at a given time. Max Aaron did just that. He performed when it counted. It matters not one bit what could have been, who skated well all year (or in previous years), who "won" the practices, or who USFSA should have sent...

    Some are pretty quick to dismiss Aaron's chances at 4CC or Worlds. After all, who picked him to win Nationals?

    Whether USA gets three spots for the Olympics is beside the point. Every skater had the chance to win during that competition... and only one seized it. Another one had a chance at the second spot, and he took it. End of story.

    I'm old enough to remember Dick Button (my favorite commentator over the years) bemoan the fact that triple jumps were changing the face of women's skating. Well, every sport evolves, and it's evolving again... right now in the US, it's about the quad. I don't think we'll ever see another men's singles World/Olympic champion without one. I doubt we'll see another US national champ without one. There's been slow movement towards this outcome, but it's been coming, and now it's here.

    USFSA hasn't shoved anyone aside... but the young guns sure have, and good for them. It's how the sport grows...

    That said... I hope the next step in US is for incredible technical ability to be married with artistry... but "pretty skating" alone isn't going to cut it anymore. If a man is serious about top tier status in this sport... he better quad-up.

    Thanks for letting me participate, Tonto

  10. #355
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    Welcome to the board, Tonto! Post often, post long!

  11. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    Welcome to the board, Tonto! Post often, post long!
    Off topic, I know, but I had to tell you I graduated from high school in Kenai, many, many, many years ago.

    Back on topic: Did they clear out a hospital to round up participants for this Championship? It appears that everyone was sick with flu or food poisoning... or getting over being sick... or recovering from broken bones... or torn tendons and ligaments... or gave birth right before the short program...

    A more cynical soul than myself might wonder if many thought they'd need an excuse... but I'm not that cynical.

  12. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by icebeauty View Post
    while it's not an excuse, I think we need to remember that Jeremy has been having back issues that weren't really sorted out until a month ago, and he started all week that he wasn't truly competition ready ESPECIALLY for the long. He was quoted with saying "I just need to do enough to get through it and get to worlds."
    He wasn't focused on winning b/c he knew that mistakes were likely but he was hoping to do enough to get to the next competition...and when Max ended up skated lights out in the long, and Ross Miner once again produced a relatively steady clean skate, Jeremy's shot getting into the top two was VERY small. Yes, Jeremy is a bit of a head-case in that he's never really been truly confident, and add in the element of being very aware that he was under-prepared for nationals, i thought Jeremy did "okay." Who knows what another week would have done...but at least he showed up and competed and wanted to win a spot to worlds the fair way and not via petition (cough Denny/Coughlin cough...) As for him not going to 4CC, i'd imagine he was advised against going...4CC is in Osaka, Japan this year. two 16+ hour flights will NOT help Jeremy's back injury...

    side notes:
    - if only we could put Max Aaron's jump right into Jeremy's program, that'd be a guaranteed medal winner at worlds...not joke. I still think it's impressive that Jeremy once again did his own choreography and did it to ONE piece of music. That program is better than some of the ones "top choreographers" have put out in the past few years. Jeremy has medalled (keep in mind natl's counts pewter) for the past 7 years at nationals and that's in and of itself something ot be proud of...if it just doesnt' work out for him, he'd be quite the choreographer, he understands how to use music and TRULY skate to it.

    Thanks for the info on Jeremy. It helps me understand what happened. As Jeremy started to skate, I felt such a strong sense of how far above almost all the other Americans he is in the quality of his movements and in his understanding of what skating is. There's a reason he's been near the top for so long and even earned international medals, and a reason he's so compelling to watch, even though he's so often a broken heart waiting to happen. You're right; if only we could graft Max's jumps and temperament onto Jeremy's skating skills....

  13. #358
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    I'm really sad that Abbott did not make the World Team. I think this could be a bit of 2011 all over again at Worlds. I think Miner will do fine again, but land nowhere near the podium. At least there wouldn't a case of the Canadian audiences not "getting" Aaron's Westside Story program (like the Russian's w/ Bradley's farce).
    I would like USFS to put major stock in Jason Brown and Joshua Farris. Those two definitely have an "it" factor. Miner is kinda the opposite of that. A solid skater, but it's like he's invisible. I never remember any of his performances. I do wish Brown and Farris would really make the push for Sochi. None of this wait for 2018 crap. I'm sure that eases the pressure off of them to know they're not expected to go to Sochi but the pressure is going to come eventually. They're massively talented and need to just embrace the pressure of expectations.

  14. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by TontoK View Post
    Off topic, I know, but I had to tell you I graduated from high school in Kenai, many, many, many years ago.
    No way?! Go Kards!

    Back on topic: Did they clear out a hospital to round up participants for this Championship? It appears that everyone was sick with flu or food poisoning... or getting over being sick... or recovering from broken bones... or torn tendons and ligaments... or gave birth right before the short program...

    A more cynical soul than myself might wonder if many thought they'd need an excuse... but I'm not that cynical.
    Well I normally think that too, but with what that flu had done everywhere it's easily believable... that and Coyote_Chris was good to report on everyone's illness levels.

  15. #360
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    I've been looking for Aaron's FS several times with high hope to see brilliant skating, but really disappointed. What kind of choreography was that, especially after both 4Ss. It looked like he totally forgot what he needed to do and just walk around after the first, and looked like cleaning/rubbing his nose after the second. I would guess that he would not get 7s for PCS in international competition. Good jumps, yes, but that's about it.

    Really like Alexander Johnson, first time watching his skating and an instant fan.

    Sad for Jeremy but I too guess he has used up his rep quota.

    Never a fan of Russ Miner but he did skate with aboundance, well deserved silver if not gold. All in all good competition.

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