I feel sorry for Caroline Zhang

[Olympia]

That 2002 Olympics was one of the best examples ever of Sasha's abilities as a short program skater and her weaknesses as a long program skater. She devoured that short. Moreover, her music, Sentimental Waltz, was perfect for her, being unusual and also having a modern flavor that, despite its title, was the opposite of sentimental or syrupy. With it, Sasha took her place on the world stage. I regret that she wasn't able to sustain that momentum for the long, but fourth place isn't a trifle for one's first Olympics. Not that a skater has to be American for me to love her/him (Go, Daisuke!), but I have always felt gratified that Sasha skated for the U.S.

[Icey]

Well, whatever Biellmann did, it certainly worked for her. After her amateur career, she skated as a pro for years, and she maintained her jumps throughout, I believe. She was known for training like a maniac, first into the gym in the morning and last out at night. She was not my favorite in terms of style, but she was always exciting to watch. She seemed to have a lovely, personality, always a plus with me.

Additionally, since Biellmann skated well into her thirties (possibly beyond), she's a great example for Caroline, because she shows that there's still time to keep up and maybe even improve one's skills.

As of December 2012, Denise is still skating in shows and still trains hard. She is 50 years old!!!!!!

[dorispulaski]

for sure! Amazing, Denise! I remember her from her last amateur performance - winning 1981 Worlds in Hartford, CT, USA

[Olympia]

As of December 2012, Denise is still skating in shows and still trains hard. She is 50 years old!!!!!!

No kidding? How wonderful to hear. Hooray for Denise!

[lavender]

There's a difference between fitness level and body type. Caroline appears to have very muscular legs and that can make it harder to rotate jumps when you compare to how she was at 14. So I disagree that she's out of shape but I think her body type may not be as optimal for jumping as someone who carries less muscle, such as Michelle Kwan. I kind of feel the same way about Mirai.

I agree. The body types that seem to benefit greatly in skating are skaters who came out of puberty looking like Kwan, Ando and the other taller, lean body type like Yu na, Kostner, Mao, Gao.

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

As of December 2012, Denise is still skating in shows and still trains hard. She is 50 years old!!!!!!

Wow, this is her from last February... still in amazing shape (hah, I can't imagine I'll be in as good shape for that many costume changes... or unchanges ) and her spins are still great -- that one-foot Beillman would rival any out there today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUSsPEjyt2Y

[silverlake22]

I agree. The body types that seem to benefit greatly in skating are skaters who came out of puberty looking like Kwan, Ando and the other taller, lean body type like Yu na, Kostner, Mao, Gao.

Agree. I've questioned Caroline and Mirai's fitness levels in the past, but they both look fit and in-shape now, they just simply aren't willowy or wiry in their build anymore, but rather curvier, with more solid looking muscle. The reality is that it's hard to do triple jumps as a women, so given that Mirai and Caroline are built more like "normal women" now, it's not surprising rotating the triples is an issue for them. In 2010, Mirai was similar in build to Yuna and Miki, but her body type has changed since then, and that's just genetics and growing up, her diet and training habits most likely have little to do with it. I know at least around the time of Vancouver, Mao, Miki, Yuna, and Mirai were all around 5'4" and 110 lbs (Mao and Yuna maybe weighed a little less). That's probably a pretty ideal size for a female figure skater, but Mirai and Caroline are not that size anymore. Of course, by no means does this make them out of shape or heavy, but figure skaters, much like distance runners, usually tend to perform their best when they are on the edge of being at an underweight vs. healthy BMI, and for some people, maintaining this type of body is easy and does not even require exercise or a strict diet, while for others, a strict diet and exercise will only get one to the middle of a healthy weight range. Kind of just reality even though it's irritating. Yuna's mom is very petite and her dad is tall and thin, so her body type is no surprise. Mai has a similar willowy build to Mao even though she isn't competing anymore so again, not surprising. Caroline's mother is not a thin lady, and idk what Mirai's parents look like but a lot of this stuff just comes down to genetics and certain body types are more suited to a given sport than others.

[PolymerBob]

Mirai and Caroline cannot be thin and willowy, so their only option is to try to get stronger.

[silverlake22]

Mirai and Caroline cannot be thin and willowy, so their only option is to try to get stronger.

But will getting stronger help them consistently rotate their jumps? This is more the question. I feel like Gracie Gold is such an exceptional jumper because she has very narrow hips but is otherwise strong and muscular. She's strong through the shoulders and chest but then has no hips, so her center of gravity is higher than most women and she can jump really high like guys do. Her build for a woman is not particularly common, but obviously is a huge advantage in this sport.

[Olympia]

Well, then there is the fact that two women who were rather stocky and muscular, Midori Ito and Tonya Harding, were two of the greatest jumpers ever. Oh, and Slutskaya.

I know that generally biology is destiny in many sports, but I always wonder who will beat the odds.

[silverlake22]

Well, then there is the fact that two women who were rather stocky and muscular, Midori Ito and Tonya Harding, were two of the greatest jumpers ever. Oh, and Slutskaya.

I know that generally biology is destiny in many sports, but I always wonder who will beat the odds.

They may have been stocky, but none of them had wide hips.

[Blades of Passion]

Ohhh GOD, logic in this thread.

No, she absolutely would not have IMO.

1. Hughes had almost all 5.8, 5.8. That left room for only 2 skaters and Sasha, Michelle, and Irina were all left to skate. We all know which 2 those were. If you give Sasha 5.8, 5.9 or 5.9, 5.8 what on earth do you do if Kwan and Slutskaya both skate cleanly as well.

If a skater scores 5.8/5.8 there is room for ELEVEN more skaters ahead of them. 5.6/6.0, 5.7/6.0, 5.8/6.0, 5.9/6.0, 6.0/6.0, 6.0/5.9, 6.0/5.8, 6.0/5.7, 5.9/5.9, 5.9/5.8, and 5.8/5.9 are all higher scores.

Sasha absolutely would have placed ahead of Hughes if she had skated cleanly with the 3Lutz+3Toe. Judges clearly liked her more; she fell and two of the judges still gave her the same presentation score as Hughes and one even scored Sasha higher!

----

BTW, I loooove the Italian judge's scoring of the LP at this event. He marked them as 1. Hughes, 2. Kwan, 3. Cohen, 4. Slutskaya. Perfect.

That should have been the overall result of the competition as well because Kwan shouldn't have won the SP at the event...Cohen should have. Kwan's 3Flip did her in at this competition. She could have made the mistake on one of them, but not in both programs like that. Except I'm GLAD she did. I can't live without her 2003 Worlds performance, which wouldn't have happened without the 2002 Olympics "failure".

[TonyaHardlyEver]

Why are we talking about the 2002 Olympics on a thread about Caroline? I do that too, though. :-) Anyway, I think Caroline needs a new coach. Karen Kwan is way too passive to coach a skater like Zhang. Caroline is tougher than she appears in the public. She needs to go to Sato and Jason or Rafael to revamp her jump technique. I agree that she would have done well in the post 94 Zenith with all the professional competitions where she could showcase her amazing Pearl spin. That's her gift to figure skating and it needs to be appreciated.

[Blades of Passion]

If a skater scores 5.8/5.8 there is room for ELEVEN more skaters ahead of them. 5.6/6.0, 5.7/6.0, 5.8/6.0, 5.9/6.0, 6.0/6.0, 6.0/5.9, 6.0/5.8, 6.0/5.7, 5.9/5.9, 5.9/5.8, and 5.8/5.9 are all higher scores.

Oops, I even forgot an important one - 5.7/5.9. So, that's 12 ways, a DOZEN ways, to place a skater ahead of someone who got 5.8/5.8.

[drivingmissdaisy]

Why are we talking about the 2002 Olympics on a thread about Caroline? I do that too, though. :-) Anyway, I think Caroline needs a new coach. Karen Kwan is way too passive to coach a skater like Zhang. Caroline is tougher than she appears in the public. She needs to go to Sato and Jason or Rafael to revamp her jump technique. I agree that she would have done well in the post 94 Zenith with all the professional competitions where she could showcase her amazing Pearl spin. That's her gift to figure skating and it needs to be appreciated.

I think it will be tough for any coach to get her to where she wants to be. We have seen skaters in the past turn things around later in their careers (Kostner, Butyrskaya, etc) but those skaters had solid fundamentals and Caroline has too many things she needs to improve upon to be competitive with the top ladies. She is slow, she has a severe problem underrotating jumps, and her choreography is (arguably) boring. Even if she is able to improve her speed and stroking she will have to relearn how to land jumps when skating faster, which has been a struggle for Mao (and Mao already had great fundamentals). When Caroline did well as a junior and first year senior, she had that "wow" factor of being young and armed with 3/3s; since then she has lost that and hasn't improved on her deficiencies (other than improved technique of the flip and flutz). Obviously it would be great if she could achieve her goals but, realistically, I don't see it happening.