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Thread: I feel sorry for Caroline Zhang

  1. #121
    Six Point Zero Krislite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Counting a jump as landed when the top of a toepick hits the ice is a slippery slope. Also, her blade is not completely flat at that point. Here's the view of the other camera angle from the CBC broadcast:

    Leaves the ice - http://smg.beta.photobucket.com/user...tml?sort=3&o=1

    Lands - http://smg.beta.photobucket.com/user...tml?sort=3&o=0

    She made it.



    Well, first of all, there's nothing in the rulebook that specifically defines jump rotation and how it should be judged. This is a huge problem with CoP and they still haven't fixed it. However, no, a jump that lands 3/4 short (discounting pre-rotation) shouldn't get full credit. I personally feel that pre-rotating less than the normal amount should give the skater some extra leeway on the landing, though, as that is what makes sense scientifically. The skater is putting extra work in as compared to another skater who pre-rotates more, so they should be getting credited for it. If you watch some of Kurt Browning's Lutzes in the past, his toepick actually pushes into the ice opposite of the direction of the jump. The jump is "starting" so early that he has to rotate more in the air than anyone else in order to land it correctly (which is why he had inconsistency with that jump during his career).

    Daisuke Takahashi pre-rotates his Toeloops a lot less than the usual amount, which has lead to him getting a bunch of unfair < calls on those jumps over the course of his career.
    Isn't the moment the toepick hits the ice the point at which technical callers consider a jump as "landed"? Or is that up to their individual discretion? When would you draw the line? When the full weight of the skater is on the ice?

  2. #122
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Callers are inconsistent and, again, there's no specific definition in the rules.

    I feel some actual weight should be on the ice (not "full weight", though).

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    With regards to Zhang I greatly admire her attitude and perserverance. After last year I thought she had an outside shot at the Sochi Olympics, or atleast making a World team before she retired, but this years Nationals scoring was basically the judges saying to forget it, no chance of her making a major team ever. ............
    Also who knows, if she keeps consistent and keeps improving, maybe a night where all breaks loose, who knows.
    If Caroline can keep skating like she did in Omaha, and make further improvements, her scores will start to rise again. Her problem is that she must make an impression in front international ISU judges before National judges will take her seriously again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Callers are inconsistent and, again, there's no specific definition in the rules.
    Like I told the posters over at FSUniverse, 2 ladies were hit by viruses in Omaha.
    Mirai suffered from the flu virus, ( Influenza A H3N2 ).
    ................. while Caroline suffered from the screw virus, ( Techcallerous ridiculi ).
    Last edited by PolymerBob; 02-09-2013 at 03:03 PM.

  4. #124
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    I do hope that Caroline keeps working at all the things she needs to improve on and keeps excelling and pushing herself in ares that she already does well. Considering how much she's changed physically as well as how all over the place her results have been since moving up to the senior ranks, I think it's pretty remarkable that she still loves to skate and is at nationals every year. (I wish she hadn't moved up to senior so quickly, but at the time she was was very much ahead of the field in the junior ranks and the US had a HUGE hole in the ladies senior ranks) For the past two seasons, i have really enjoyed her skates at nationals (and 4CC last year)...it seems that she's been training to peak later in the season...and i definitely think she was under marked in the SP at nationals this year.
    I hope that she keeps skating for as long as she still loves it, and i really do want to see her land and get credit for a clean 3R-3R combo...NO ONE does a loop jump quite like her. In fact the amount of spring she gets in her loop (just look at when she has a 2R at the end of a combo...she jumps higher than the toe!) indicates that she has good spring/ability to jump purely from her leg muscles, but i think there's a disconnect between taking the momentum from her skating into the jump to translating it into the jump itself.

    Some food for thought:
    - who else read the post on IN about Caroline's coaches addressing the inconsistencies in judging the loop jump (especially with regards of the pre-rotation/take off in a curve)...do you think it will be addressed/can it be addressed? how do you truly measure under-rotation on a loop if the direction you land is not truly the direction you face when you actually jump?
    - her axel has gotten better and the mule kick is less obvious, this all means that she's been making changes, and i think she can continue to do so if she doesn't push too hard for the results (like don't worry about making the team, just focus on what she can control)
    - her spirals are the best in the world currently...she's one of about 5 ladies that i can think of currently who are allowed to perform spirals in my book...i have zero tolerance for ugly spiral positions, so basically, if for purely selfish reasons, i want her to keep skating just to show all the other ladies what a spiral sequence should look like/or at least what's required to get the + GOEs
    - we know the US judges will score her better if she gets better results internationally, but do you think she'll be scored fairly internationally even if she skates relatively clean?

  5. #125
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Her biggest problem is still lack of speed in her basic skating IMO. Until she skates as fast as the top skaters, she won't get the PCS scores, which tend to index off "Skating Skills." I'd recommend a summer spent with ice dance coaches to fix the problem. She a tenacious, hard-working lady, and I think she can do it!

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Her biggest problem is still lack of speed in her basic skating IMO. Until she skates as fast as the top skaters, she won't get the PCS scores, which tend to index off "Skating Skills." I'd recommend a summer spent with ice dance coaches to fix the problem. She a tenacious, hard-working lady, and I think she can do it!
    That is such a neat idea, Doris. I'd love to see this happen.

  7. #127
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Her biggest problem is still lack of speed in her basic skating IMO. Until she skates as fast as the top skaters, she won't get the PCS scores, which tend to index off "Skating Skills." I'd recommend a summer spent with ice dance coaches to fix the problem. She a tenacious, hard-working lady, and I think she can do it!
    Not to be harsh, but her (PCS) marks have been pointing in this direction for several years, yet she hasn't really worked on fixing that - she's worked on the flip, Axel, loop, a little on the Lutz, but the glaring thing is the poor basic stroking and depth of edge but there really HASN'T been improvement at all in this area. This has been suggested repeatedly...

  8. #128
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    That's true. I'm just hoping that at this point, she's old enough to understand the advice, and young enough to be able to benefit from it. It isn't necessary to schlep to Michigan. I'm sure there are coaches in her area that can teach basic stroking and depth of edge.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjane45 View Post
    Do we have any recent examples of someone dramatically improving their basic skating skills from poor to average or to good?
    Maybe in the men =- kEVIN rEYNOLDS.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    That's true. I'm just hoping that at this point, she's old enough to understand the advice, and young enough to be able to benefit from it. It isn't necessary to schlep to Michigan. I'm sure there are coaches in her area that can teach basic stroking and depth of edge.
    Doris, I agree with your idea, but for the love of God, I do not understand what the heck are her coaches doing? Are they blind or what?
    I saw this years GP events and Caroline simply was the SLOWEST OF ALL skaters on the GP circuit. She either was passed by everyone else or since the field has been cut to 10 at each event, the weakest links are not participating, so now Caroline's slow speed became glaring.
    And the slow speed has a ripple efect pn PCS, she cannot do transitions either, as she spends more time to get from one element to the next.
    And I just don't see her taking control of her destiny as Ashley Wagner did and move to the other end of the country to seek help from a coach who would know what she has to work on.
    The US ladies field will be extremely crowded by candidates next season and there will be no time for those who will start from scratch.
    Despite all the wishful thinking here, I cannot picture her getting back into contention.

  11. #131
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    She had her heyday. What is to feel sorry for? She is not injured, has had a respectable career. Some must come up and others go away. She should go to college or move on. Be realistic for her. I feel sorry for Gold who is now skating like the once heralded Agnes. These two can skate and they are nervous nellies. Hope Wagner holds it together for worlds.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    She had her heyday. What is to feel sorry for? She is not injured, has had a respectable career. Some must come up and others go away. She should go to college or move on.
    I would just comment that only a year ago at 4CC she beat the speed demon Kanako and the big jumper Agnes. The judges didn't seem to mind her slower skating then. I would also comment that in Omaha, I believe she was the only ladies skater, not Ashley, not Gracies, not Agnes, to get standing ovations in both the SP and FS.

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