Page 8 of 9 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 LastLast
Results 106 to 120 of 132

Thread: I feel sorry for Caroline Zhang

  1. #106
    Custard Title
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    915
    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    You can keep saying this but that doesn't make it true, because you are providing no reference point. Short of what exactly? You have to specifically look at where the jump starts and you have to understand that 1/2 a turn of pre-rotation is just naturally part of how these jumps work.

    Her jumps are absolutely not .5/.6 of a rotation short like you claim. An ideally rotated Salchow/Loop is 2.5 rotations in the air. You're saying those jumps are rotating 1.9/2 turns in the air. This is simply incorrect.

    Most of the jumps in her program are borderline, I'll give you that, but you have to give benefit of the doubt. I maintain that only one of those triples would have deserved the < call. Not to mention, you have to consider the difficulty of these jump combinations. A clean 3Sal<+3Loop combination is still quite praise-worthy.

    Her performance was lightning in a bottle. It deserved to win this competition. The fact that a performance like this might lose to Slutskaya's performance under the scoring system of the past 7-8 years is exactly what's wrong with the sport now. Please give me Sarah's gorgeous "Level 1" Layback spin any day of the week over most of the "Level 4" Laybacks we see these days.
    Wouldn't Slutskaya have won under 6.0 if she had been in 1st after the short as she deserved? All 3 Americans flutzed and Kwan was very close to underrotating her flip. Meanwhile Slutskaya had landed the most difficult combination with a clean Lutz not to mention her very fast spins and the footwork done all on one foot. When the people on the forums these days say that a triple flutz is somehow not a real triple I would think they'd be willing to apply those standards to the ladies in 2002.
    Last edited by CarneAsada; 02-08-2013 at 02:43 AM.

  2. #107
    can't come down to Earth prettykeys's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    1,801
    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    You can keep saying this but that doesn't make it true, because you are providing no reference point. Short of what exactly? You have to specifically look at where the jump starts and you have to understand that 1/2 a turn of pre-rotation is just naturally part of how these jumps work.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2KYnyBI3JU&t=5m33s

    Her first -3Loop looks about 1/2 rotation short to me (or at least more than 1/3 short), as drivingmissdaisy says. You can see the mark on the ice where she left it (already having pre-rotated 1/2 a turn); she lands in forward alignment with that mark, and then completes the rest of the revolution on the ice.

  3. #108
    Spiral Lover tulosai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Paris, France
    Posts
    2,406
    Quote Originally Posted by prettykeys View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2KYnyBI3JU&t=5m33s

    Her first -3Loop looks about 1/2 rotation short to me (or at least more than 1/3 short), as drivingmissdaisy says. You can see the mark on the ice where she left it (already having pre-rotated 1/2 a turn); she lands in forward alignment with that mark, and then completes the rest of the revolution on the ice.
    For what it is worth I also agree with drivingmissdaisy.

  4. #109
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    3,226
    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    You can keep saying this but that doesn't make it true, because you are providing no reference point. Short of what exactly? You have to specifically look at where the jump starts and you have to understand that 1/2 a turn of pre-rotation is just naturally part of how these jumps work.
    This is false. Four can jumps prerotate 1/4 turn: axel, toe, salchow, and loop. Two jumps should not pre-rotate: lutz and flip. It is physically impossible to prerotate a lutz, in fact. So to say every jump should pre-rotate a 1/2 turn is completely false. Four can prerotate 1/4 turn and two should not prerotate at all.

    So, ignoring prerotation (because everyone prerotates the jumps about the same amount), look at her landings. The loops land with the toe pick pointed in the direction she is skating (i.e. 1/2 turn short). Even the commentators note this, and people didn't even comment on under rotating much in 2002. Most of her other jumps come down with her blade sideways (1/4 turn short) and usually a little > 1/4 shy of rotation. So these were not borderline < jumps; aside from the final 3T, they were either clearly < or borderline <<. Again, look at the slow-motion from the Canadian broadcast and you'll see it pretty clearly. You can't give her credit for rotating 2.25+ on a lutz because she didn't pre rotate it

  5. #110
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    2,690
    Hughes 3 Loop should be downgraded! at least 200 degree prerotated. at least 150 degree underrotated. She's the worst Gold Medalist for a reason!

  6. #111
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    143
    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    This is false. Four can jumps prerotate 1/4 turn: axel, toe, salchow, and loop. Two jumps should not pre-rotate: lutz and flip. It is physically impossible to prerotate a lutz, in fact. So to say every jump should pre-rotate a 1/2 turn is completely false. Four can prerotate 1/4 turn and two should not prerotate at all.

    So, ignoring prerotation (because everyone prerotates the jumps about the same amount), look at her landings. The loops land with the toe pick pointed in the direction she is skating (i.e. 1/2 turn short). Even the commentators note this, and people didn't even comment on under rotating much in 2002. Most of her other jumps come down with her blade sideways (1/4 turn short) and usually a little > 1/4 shy of rotation. So these were not borderline < jumps; aside from the final 3T, they were either clearly < or borderline <<. Again, look at the slow-motion from the Canadian broadcast and you'll see it pretty clearly. You can't give her credit for rotating 2.25+ on a lutz because she didn't pre rotate it
    Triple salchow and loop should have a half turn of pre rotation, if you dont do this good luck trying rotate, you have to roll up and jump forwards of the toe pick, you`re mostly right about the others though good flips and lutzes have barely any prerotation

  7. #112
    Rinkside
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    16
    When did this thread stop being about Caroline Zhang?

  8. #113
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    231
    Quote Originally Posted by auga View Post
    When did this thread stop being about Caroline Zhang?

    Around the same time Mirai's thread stopped being about Mirai.

  9. #114
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    3,554
    Judges used to decide the technical merit of all skaters and if one said there was an underrotations they would give 5.6 and a judge who saw all rotations might give 5.8

  10. #115
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    4,899
    With regards to Zhang I greatly admire her attitude and perserverance. After last year I thought she had an outside shot at the Sochi Olympics, or atleast making a World team before she retired, but this years Nationals scoring was basically the judges saying to forget it, no chance of her making a major team ever. I think she probably knows that but she is at this point going to keep skating since she loves it, and loves the challenge of having come through all her problems and trying to get better, and trying to be the best skater she can be. That said I wouldnt be surprised if she keeps on after Sochi. Also who knows, if she keeps consistent and keeps improving, maybe a night where all breaks loose, who knows.

  11. #116
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Hollywood, CA
    Posts
    3,900
    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    This is false. Four can jumps prerotate 1/4 turn: axel, toe, salchow, and loop. Two jumps should not pre-rotate: lutz and flip. It is physically impossible to prerotate a lutz, in fact. So to say every jump should pre-rotate a 1/2 turn is completely false. Four can prerotate 1/4 turn and two should not prerotate at all.
    No, it is not false. You have no clue what you're talking about and everything you've written here is wrong. :mean, but true:

    Pause the Salchow or Loop of pretty much any top skater and you will see they leave the ice FORWARD. Most toeloops happen like this as well. Toeloops pre-rotate even more than that (and it can happen on the Salchow and Loop as well) rather frequently, which is flawed technique, with the skater pulling around on the ice with their toepick as they leave the ice.

    The Flip and Lutz can pre-rotate 1/2 turn on the picking foot. This happens most frequently with female skaters, but male skaters such as Alexander Abt have done it that way too. I don't think that much pre-rotation on the Lutz and Flip is ideal technique, but it's not really punishable either. If you watch Quad attempts for these jumps, people DO start pre-rotating on their picking foot like that. There's just no other feasible way to rotate Quad versions of these jumps (as a singles skater).

    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    Again, look at the slow-motion from the Canadian broadcast and you'll see it pretty clearly. You can't give her credit for rotating 2.25+ on a lutz because she didn't pre rotate it
    I will post screencaps from the Canadian broadcast in and moment and then YOU will see pretty clearly why you're wrong. About your pre-rotation thing here, though, Hughes does pre-rotate a full 1/2 turn on the Lutz and Flip. Watch her picking foot. I'm sorry, but you really just don't understand jump technique/science.

    Here is the point where Hughes' first 3Loop leaves the ice: http://smg.beta.photobucket.com/user...tml?sort=3&o=1

    Here's the point where it lands: http://smg.beta.photobucket.com/user...4fad1.png.html

    (not the best video quality unfortunately, but you can see it good enough)

    As I said before, she leaves the ice facing diagonally left of the bottom boards of the rink and then lands diagonally left of the top boards of the rink. That is 2.25 rotations, the minimum the jump needs.

  12. #117
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    3,226
    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Here's the point where it lands: http://smg.beta.photobucket.com/user...4fad1.png.html

    (not the best video quality unfortunately, but you can see it good enough)
    That is not the point where her skate hits the ice. Her blade is already flat in your picture and she lands on the toe pick far short of that point. She did not land her jumps on edges. Try again.

    Furthermore, she is moving right to left on the screen and she is short of a quarter even here. Don't take my word for it though; read other people's post here.

  13. #118
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    3,226
    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    That is 2.25 rotations, the minimum the jump needs.
    So you're saying if a skater did not pre-rotate their lutz then they could come out 3/4 short and still get full credit?

  14. #119
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Hollywood, CA
    Posts
    3,900
    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    That is not the point where her skate hits the ice. Her blade is already flat in your picture and she lands on the toe pick far short of that point. She did not land her jumps on edges. Try again.
    Counting a jump as landed when the top of a toepick hits the ice is a slippery slope. Also, her blade is not completely flat at that point. Here's the view of the other camera angle from the CBC broadcast:

    Leaves the ice - http://smg.beta.photobucket.com/user...tml?sort=3&o=1

    Lands - http://smg.beta.photobucket.com/user...tml?sort=3&o=0

    She made it.

    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    So you're saying if a skater did not pre-rotate their lutz then they could come out 3/4 short and still get full credit?
    Well, first of all, there's nothing in the rulebook that specifically defines jump rotation and how it should be judged. This is a huge problem with CoP and they still haven't fixed it. However, no, a jump that lands 3/4 short (discounting pre-rotation) shouldn't get full credit. I personally feel that pre-rotating less than the normal amount should give the skater some extra leeway on the landing, though, as that is what makes sense scientifically. The skater is putting extra work in as compared to another skater who pre-rotates more, so they should be getting credited for it. If you watch some of Kurt Browning's Lutzes in the past, his toepick actually pushes into the ice opposite of the direction of the jump. The jump is "starting" so early that he has to rotate more in the air than anyone else in order to land it correctly (which is why he had inconsistency with that jump during his career).

    Daisuke Takahashi pre-rotates his Toeloops a lot less than the usual amount, which has lead to him getting a bunch of unfair < calls on those jumps over the course of his career.

  15. #120
    Banned Reginald's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Ithaca, NY
    Posts
    227
    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    With regards to Zhang I greatly admire her attitude and perserverance. After last year I thought she had an outside shot at the Sochi Olympics, or atleast making a World team before she retired, but this years Nationals scoring was basically the judges saying to forget it, no chance of her making a major team ever. I think she probably knows that but she is at this point going to keep skating since she loves it, and loves the challenge of having come through all her problems and trying to get better, and trying to be the best skater she can be. That said I wouldnt be surprised if she keeps on after Sochi. Also who knows, if she keeps consistent and keeps improving, maybe a night where all breaks loose, who knows.
    Please let this be true.

Page 8 of 9 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •