I feel sorry for Caroline Zhang

[CarneAsada]

You can keep saying this but that doesn't make it true, because you are providing no reference point. Short of what exactly? You have to specifically look at where the jump starts and you have to understand that 1/2 a turn of pre-rotation is just naturally part of how these jumps work.

Her jumps are absolutely not .5/.6 of a rotation short like you claim. An ideally rotated Salchow/Loop is 2.5 rotations in the air. You're saying those jumps are rotating 1.9/2 turns in the air. This is simply incorrect.

Most of the jumps in her program are borderline, I'll give you that, but you have to give benefit of the doubt. I maintain that only one of those triples would have deserved the < call. Not to mention, you have to consider the difficulty of these jump combinations. A clean 3Sal<+3Loop combination is still quite praise-worthy.

Her performance was lightning in a bottle. It deserved to win this competition. The fact that a performance like this might lose to Slutskaya's performance under the scoring system of the past 7-8 years is exactly what's wrong with the sport now. Please give me Sarah's gorgeous "Level 1" Layback spin any day of the week over most of the "Level 4" Laybacks we see these days.

Wouldn't Slutskaya have won under 6.0 if she had been in 1st after the short as she deserved? All 3 Americans flutzed and Kwan was very close to underrotating her flip. Meanwhile Slutskaya had landed the most difficult combination with a clean Lutz not to mention her very fast spins and the footwork done all on one foot. When the people on the forums these days say that a triple flutz is somehow not a real triple I would think they'd be willing to apply those standards to the ladies in 2002.

[prettykeys]

You can keep saying this but that doesn't make it true, because you are providing no reference point. Short of what exactly? You have to specifically look at where the jump starts and you have to understand that 1/2 a turn of pre-rotation is just naturally part of how these jumps work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2KYnyBI3JU&t=5m33s

Her first -3Loop looks about 1/2 rotation short to me (or at least more than 1/3 short), as drivingmissdaisy says. You can see the mark on the ice where she left it (already having pre-rotated 1/2 a turn); she lands in forward alignment with that mark, and then completes the rest of the revolution on the ice.

[tulosai]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2KYnyBI3JU&t=5m33s

Her first -3Loop looks about 1/2 rotation short to me (or at least more than 1/3 short), as drivingmissdaisy says. You can see the mark on the ice where she left it (already having pre-rotated 1/2 a turn); she lands in forward alignment with that mark, and then completes the rest of the revolution on the ice.

For what it is worth I also agree with drivingmissdaisy.

[drivingmissdaisy]

You can keep saying this but that doesn't make it true, because you are providing no reference point. Short of what exactly? You have to specifically look at where the jump starts and you have to understand that 1/2 a turn of pre-rotation is just naturally part of how these jumps work.

This is false. Four can jumps prerotate 1/4 turn: axel, toe, salchow, and loop. Two jumps should not pre-rotate: lutz and flip. It is physically impossible to prerotate a lutz, in fact. So to say every jump should pre-rotate a 1/2 turn is completely false. Four can prerotate 1/4 turn and two should not prerotate at all.

So, ignoring prerotation (because everyone prerotates the jumps about the same amount), look at her landings. The loops land with the toe pick pointed in the direction she is skating (i.e. 1/2 turn short). Even the commentators note this, and people didn't even comment on under rotating much in 2002. Most of her other jumps come down with her blade sideways (1/4 turn short) and usually a little > 1/4 shy of rotation. So these were not borderline < jumps; aside from the final 3T, they were either clearly < or borderline <<. Again, look at the slow-motion from the Canadian broadcast and you'll see it pretty clearly. You can't give her credit for rotating 2.25+ on a lutz because she didn't pre rotate it

[FlattFan]

Hughes 3 Loop should be downgraded! at least 200 degree prerotated. at least 150 degree underrotated. She's the worst Gold Medalist for a reason!

[skatel80]

This is false. Four can jumps prerotate 1/4 turn: axel, toe, salchow, and loop. Two jumps should not pre-rotate: lutz and flip. It is physically impossible to prerotate a lutz, in fact. So to say every jump should pre-rotate a 1/2 turn is completely false. Four can prerotate 1/4 turn and two should not prerotate at all.

So, ignoring prerotation (because everyone prerotates the jumps about the same amount), look at her landings. The loops land with the toe pick pointed in the direction she is skating (i.e. 1/2 turn short). Even the commentators note this, and people didn't even comment on under rotating much in 2002. Most of her other jumps come down with her blade sideways (1/4 turn short) and usually a little > 1/4 shy of rotation. So these were not borderline < jumps; aside from the final 3T, they were either clearly < or borderline <<. Again, look at the slow-motion from the Canadian broadcast and you'll see it pretty clearly. You can't give her credit for rotating 2.25+ on a lutz because she didn't pre rotate it

Triple salchow and loop should have a half turn of pre rotation, if you dont do this good luck trying rotate, you have to roll up and jump forwards of the toe pick, you`re mostly right about the others though good flips and lutzes have barely any prerotation

[auga]

When did this thread stop being about Caroline Zhang?

[Puchi]

When did this thread stop being about Caroline Zhang?

Around the same time Mirai's thread stopped being about Mirai.

[gmyers]

Judges used to decide the technical merit of all skaters and if one said there was an underrotations they would give 5.6 and a judge who saw all rotations might give 5.8

[pangtongfan]

With regards to Zhang I greatly admire her attitude and perserverance. After last year I thought she had an outside shot at the Sochi Olympics, or atleast making a World team before she retired, but this years Nationals scoring was basically the judges saying to forget it, no chance of her making a major team ever. I think she probably knows that but she is at this point going to keep skating since she loves it, and loves the challenge of having come through all her problems and trying to get better, and trying to be the best skater she can be. That said I wouldnt be surprised if she keeps on after Sochi. Also who knows, if she keeps consistent and keeps improving, maybe a night where all breaks loose, who knows.

[Blades of Passion]

This is false. Four can jumps prerotate 1/4 turn: axel, toe, salchow, and loop. Two jumps should not pre-rotate: lutz and flip. It is physically impossible to prerotate a lutz, in fact. So to say every jump should pre-rotate a 1/2 turn is completely false. Four can prerotate 1/4 turn and two should not prerotate at all.

No, it is not false. You have no clue what you're talking about and everything you've written here is wrong. :mean, but true:

Pause the Salchow or Loop of pretty much any top skater and you will see they leave the ice FORWARD. Most toeloops happen like this as well. Toeloops pre-rotate even more than that (and it can happen on the Salchow and Loop as well) rather frequently, which is flawed technique, with the skater pulling around on the ice with their toepick as they leave the ice.

The Flip and Lutz can pre-rotate 1/2 turn on the picking foot. This happens most frequently with female skaters, but male skaters such as Alexander Abt have done it that way too. I don't think that much pre-rotation on the Lutz and Flip is ideal technique, but it's not really punishable either. If you watch Quad attempts for these jumps, people DO start pre-rotating on their picking foot like that. There's just no other feasible way to rotate Quad versions of these jumps (as a singles skater).

Again, look at the slow-motion from the Canadian broadcast and you'll see it pretty clearly. You can't give her credit for rotating 2.25+ on a lutz because she didn't pre rotate it

I will post screencaps from the Canadian broadcast in and moment and then YOU will see pretty clearly why you're wrong. About your pre-rotation thing here, though, Hughes does pre-rotate a full 1/2 turn on the Lutz and Flip. Watch her picking foot. I'm sorry, but you really just don't understand jump technique/science.

Here is the point where Hughes' first 3Loop leaves the ice: http://smg.beta.photobucket.com/user...tml?sort=3&o=1

Here's the point where it lands: http://smg.beta.photobucket.com/user...4fad1.png.html

(not the best video quality unfortunately, but you can see it good enough)

As I said before, she leaves the ice facing diagonally left of the bottom boards of the rink and then lands diagonally left of the top boards of the rink. That is 2.25 rotations, the minimum the jump needs.

[drivingmissdaisy]

Here's the point where it lands: http://smg.beta.photobucket.com/user...4fad1.png.html

(not the best video quality unfortunately, but you can see it good enough)

That is not the point where her skate hits the ice. Her blade is already flat in your picture and she lands on the toe pick far short of that point. She did not land her jumps on edges. Try again.

Furthermore, she is moving right to left on the screen and she is short of a quarter even here. Don't take my word for it though; read other people's post here.

[drivingmissdaisy]

That is 2.25 rotations, the minimum the jump needs.

So you're saying if a skater did not pre-rotate their lutz then they could come out 3/4 short and still get full credit?

[Blades of Passion]

That is not the point where her skate hits the ice. Her blade is already flat in your picture and she lands on the toe pick far short of that point. She did not land her jumps on edges. Try again.

Counting a jump as landed when the top of a toepick hits the ice is a slippery slope. Also, her blade is not completely flat at that point. Here's the view of the other camera angle from the CBC broadcast:

Leaves the ice - http://smg.beta.photobucket.com/user...tml?sort=3&o=1

Lands - http://smg.beta.photobucket.com/user...tml?sort=3&o=0

She made it.

So you're saying if a skater did not pre-rotate their lutz then they could come out 3/4 short and still get full credit?

Well, first of all, there's nothing in the rulebook that specifically defines jump rotation and how it should be judged. This is a huge problem with CoP and they still haven't fixed it. However, no, a jump that lands 3/4 short (discounting pre-rotation) shouldn't get full credit. I personally feel that pre-rotating less than the normal amount should give the skater some extra leeway on the landing, though, as that is what makes sense scientifically. The skater is putting extra work in as compared to another skater who pre-rotates more, so they should be getting credited for it. If you watch some of Kurt Browning's Lutzes in the past, his toepick actually pushes into the ice opposite of the direction of the jump. The jump is "starting" so early that he has to rotate more in the air than anyone else in order to land it correctly (which is why he had inconsistency with that jump during his career).

Daisuke Takahashi pre-rotates his Toeloops a lot less than the usual amount, which has lead to him getting a bunch of unfair < calls on those jumps over the course of his career.

[Reginald]

With regards to Zhang I greatly admire her attitude and perserverance. After last year I thought she had an outside shot at the Sochi Olympics, or atleast making a World team before she retired, but this years Nationals scoring was basically the judges saying to forget it, no chance of her making a major team ever. I think she probably knows that but she is at this point going to keep skating since she loves it, and loves the challenge of having come through all her problems and trying to get better, and trying to be the best skater she can be. That said I wouldnt be surprised if she keeps on after Sochi. Also who knows, if she keeps consistent and keeps improving, maybe a night where all breaks loose, who knows.

Please let this be true.