Can Kostner hold off Russian babies? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Can Kostner hold off Russian babies?

shine

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Kostner has it in the bag. The judges love her sometimes a little too much. She can beat the Russian babies but can she beat Yuna. I still think Kostner is overrated. Her skating skills are not comparable to Takahashi or Chan yet she is treated like she is the greatest thing since spandex or flesh colored tights. I think you have to worry most about Ashley Wagner rather than Osmond. As for Korpi - she is a beautiful girl but I hope she doesn't medal Somehow I find the finnish girls awfully lucky. Lepisto eeked out a bronze that I think could have gone to the no 4 lady or even Phanuef in 2010.
Although I have no idea why the heck we are comparing Kostner to MALE skaters, I would say her skating skills are the greatest that I've ever seen from a ladies skater and better than Takahashi's.

And if I remember correctly, her PCS really hasn't been that inflated (if at all) compared to the top skaters in other desciplines. Except for Euros, her scores have mostly been capped around the low 8s, and sometimes she even gets high 7s. I'm not sure what you are complaining about.
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
I would venture to agree with chuckm. Yuna and Carolina will be on the podium though I do think it is possible Wagner or even Suzuki could sneak in for a silver over one of them one of them is a bit shakey. I am biased and I do not find Carolina as impressive as a lot of people including her skating skills. I don't find her a natural musically and when she is off she is way off though I rarely see her get crucified for it. Mao is a huge questionmark. She really has not developed as hoped or redeveloped her jumps and really is getting a bit stale. So I enjoy Gold, Osmond and the baby Russian bringing new blood. I really hope that someone skates well enough so we don't end up like 2010 with someone like Lepisto on the podium. Nothing aginst Laura but she was really lucky in a weak year (and he fact that slighlty different judges could have put Phaneuf or someone ahead of her (I am sorry I don't remember who was in fourth.
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
I'd say Carolina, Yuna and Mao all have the potential to win gold in that as of now, they already possess the PCS so it comes down to who can jump the most on that day.

I think PCS-wise, with the programs that they have this, Mao would score the highest in PCS overall.

Skating Skills
In terms of skating skills, Carolina has superior power compared to Yuna and Mao, but Mao has vastly improved her ability to power skate since going to Mr. Sato, and the difference is not as much as it used to be. Mao's ability for multidirectional skating however, is far superior to Carolina or Yuna, and I doubt that either two will be able to vastly improve this aspect of their skating from here to Sochi.

Transitions
Mao's program has the most transitions compared to Carolina and Yuna. Carolina telegraphs. Yuna may increase her transitions next season, but her program this year is less than what she had before her break.

Performance/Execution
Carolina is really beautiful on the ice but she actually isn't too good at moving with music, at least not as great as Yuna or Mao. Yuna is good for her ability to use her shoulders and face to accent certain moments of her program, but Mao's ability to move her body with the music is far superior.

Choreography
Can't say which is best. Not sure about which program has the best ice coverage, but they all seem good.

Interpretation
All three are good.

With jumps, Yuna's toe jumps are the best. With Carolina, she has brought back the flip and lutz this year but it's still not that stable and she still telegraphs. Mao's toe jumps are work in progress, but it is feasible that she will have mastered her new flip technique completely by Sochi. She apparently is practicing all kinds of 3-3 now.

With salchow, Carolina's salchow is the best. Yuna has a so-so salchow. Mao's salchow used to be bad but this season's salchow technique is very good. Her salchow at Nationals was beautiful.

With loop, Carolina's loop is huge and beautiful, but Mao's is also very good and she gets good GOEs on them. Yuna doesn't do loops.

With 2-axel, point-wise, Mao and Yuna get similar points with Carolina (I think? not sure) getting less points, but the difference is negligent, I think??

One thing that Mao potentially has over Yuna and Carolina is the triple-axel, which she has demonstrated that she can still do in practice, now with improved technique. So if Mao can bring back the triple-axel into the program by Sochi, that will give Mao an advantage.
 

figureskate

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 7, 2011
Her skating skills are not comparable to Takahashi or Chan yet she is treated like she is the greatest thing since spandex or flesh colored tights.

There's so much I can't understand in this sentence, but truly colored tights are not a great thing :no:

Anyway, I do hope that Liza and Adelina didn't focus all of their physical preparation for skating the best at nationals and euros and will be on top form at worlds. They will both need to skate clean if they want to beat not just Carolina, but also Mao and Yuna (if any of these three skates barely clean they will be in front in any case, imo)

I am so worried about Akiko's recent outcomes, I hope she can get her consistency back in time.
 

christinaskater

Medalist
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
If Akiko skates her 2 programs to it's potential, she has the potential to be World Champion!

As of now- this is how it looks like.

Yu-Na Kim
Carolina Kostner
Mao Asada.
Akiko Suzuki
Ashley Wagner
Adelina Sotnikova
Elizaveta Tuktamysheva
Gracie Gold.
Kaetlyn Osmond.
Kanako Murakami.


It's getting pretty crowded on the top!
 

Reginald

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
If Akiko skates her 2 programs to it's potential, she has the potential to be World Champion!

As of now- this is how it looks like.

Yu-Na Kim
Carolina Kostner
Mao Asada.
Akiko Suzuki
Ashley Wagner
Adelina Sotnikova
Elizaveta Tuktamysheva
Gracie Gold.
Kaetlyn Osmond.
Kanako Murakami.


It's getting pretty crowded on the top!

Next year, add Julia Lipnitskaia into the mix, and the Olympic field could be a shark tank!
 

Bartek

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 29, 2009
3Z, Kim > Kostner (just got it back) >> Asada (still flutzes and doubles occasionally)
3F, Kim > Kostner > Asada (while Kostner and Kim have better technique and speed on their flip, Asada is consistently given good GOE for it, though... I give edge to Kim because she's able to tack on a 3T to hers, which is an advantage)
3L, Kostner >> Asada (Kostner has nicer transitions and better height and speed, Asada's is consistent, Kim doesn't attempt it so she really shouldn't be compared)
3S, Kostner = Kim >> Asada (Kostner has a nice salchow, but so does Kim, both do two of them, Asada's 3S is her worst)
XX-3T, Kim >>> Kostner > Asada (Kim is the only one who can reliably do her 3T in combos without UR... Kostner has a good 3T but sometimes makes errors, Asada often UR's it in combination with 2A)
2A, Asada > Kim > Kostner

Choreography/Performance
Kim > Kostner > Asada

Spins
Kostner > Kim > Asada

Consistency
Kim > Asada > Kostner

At this point I think Kim is obviously the one to beat and Kostner and Asada will duel it out for silver/bronze. Even though I think Kostner has better jumps than Asada, Asada is slightly more consistent and still gets similar GOE as Kostner. A huge advantage is in Kim's ability to tack on 3T to her flip/lutz/2A.

Your evaluation is ridiculous.

Asada has superior program to both Kostner and Kim this season as far as choreograpy and transitions go. Thanks to her line and posture she matches the theme of the music perfectly. Her movements are graceful and throughout the whole program accentute the changes in music doing all the subtle moves that Tarasova put there. The whole thing is fantastically thought-out by the choreographer. There's no telegraphing or too much stroking, jumps are packed one after another which gives more place for wonderful choreographic moments like the slow section with spread eagles or "balletic turns" incorporated to the ice right at the end of the program.

SS --> This one is difficult. Kim is probably the most "all-around" skater here. Kostner has the best edges but is not as fast as she used to be. Asada has fantastic flow and soft movement across the ice and gains speed doing forward crossovers as easily as when doing backward ones. That is her advandage over Kim and Kostner who gains speed mainly with only backward crossovers. Asada has a lot more one-foot skating as well. Kim has both Kostner's speed and Asada's flow. All in all, I would still give the edge to Kostner.
Kostner > Asada = Kim

Spins --> I have no idea how you could put Asada in the last place since she has probably the best spins out there in ladies' skating since Alissa is gone. Lipnitskaya maybe on par. By far better positions than both Kim and Kostner. Kostner travels at times, Asada does not. Kim is relatively fast but has rather poor positions. Both Kostner and Kim lacks Biellman positions and cannot bring their layback to level 4.
Asada > Kostner = Kim

Steps --> This seasons Asada's footwork is a piece of art musically and performance-wise, simultaneously having all the steps and turns for level 4. So many details like her stop in the middle accentuating the music or right at the end changes of edge with her arm above her head, again perfectly matched with the music. She does it with energy and joy.
Asada > Kostner > Kim

Transitions --> Asada easily wins that one. Every jump apart from 2A+3T is preceeded by some steps or turns, not of the highest difficulty but fantastic quality. Program is not overloaded with stroking to gain speed, she has to gain it bit those turns and steps. Besides, a lot of little spread eagles, ina bauers, spirals. Kostner doesn't have anyting going into first three jumping passes. No transitions into her jumps at all. There is only one difficult exit out of her lutz but the jump itself is terribly telegraphed. No telegraphing in Asada's program. Notice what both Kostner and Kim does before their lutzes. They do crossovers aside the egde of the rink to gain the speed, then skate through the whole rink approaching the jump, Kostner doing absolutely nothing, Kim doing a turn. Now, let's look at Asada's set up. She goes directly from the entrance of her flip to this "through the whole rink" part and does just two crossovers, then does the jump and performs difficult exit by lifting her leg above the hip level. Similar situation with the flips. Both Kostner and Kim does a lot of crossovers and then skate straight through the whole rink. While approaching her 3F+2Lo combo, Asada does JUST 2 crossovers and then turns on one foot several times and by the time she takes off the jump she has little speed, hence the problems with underrotation. Kim has few transitions but certainly more than Kostner. Difficult exit after her solo triple lutz, spread eagle entrance to 2A combination. Kostner has virtually nothing directly in or out of her jumps except the turn after landing the lutz.
Asada > Kim > Kostner

When it comes to putting the triple toe at the end of a combination, it's ridiculous that you put Kostner above Asada! You consider Kostner who has not landed ANYTHING with the triple toe at the end this season to be superior to Asada who on regular basis has been landing 2A+3T the whole season! Right, Asada had it underrotated at her first two competitions but at GPF and Japan Nationals it was huge and ratified. Kostner has only showed her combos in practice and this is certainly not enough to even make the comparison with Asada's combos done out there on the ice under competitive pressure. Again, landing jumps during practice is one thing and doing them at competition is another story. Slutskaya is reported to have landed 3S+3L+0,5L+3S, Asada 4Lo, Arakawa 3S+3T+3Lo. Never were those jumps performed in competitions. Let's take into consideration what we have seen on the competitive ice. I know that Carolina's combos look great in practice and there is every likelihood she will include a triple-triple in her program but it remains yet to be seen. Recent practice reports have shown that Asada's 3A is very good. She landed several clean ones during official practice at Japan Nationals. She may attempt it at 4CC. Kim has obviously the edge with triple-triple combinations and probably neither Kostner, nor Asada will ever catch up with her.

Asada got 129,5 points at GPF with mistakes. If she goes clean she has all the potential to score 140 which is probably the same as clean Kim could score.
 
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Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
I have to say I think Yuna is still the frontrunner then Kostner for now and finally Asada - she has been so vulnerable. I think part of the problem is her jumps - not just the technique but she has yet to master them yet she keeps changing the focus so to speak. Are you doing a clean skate with no edge calls without the 3A; do you drop the lutz or what?
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
When it comes to putting the triple toe at the end of a combination, it's ridiculous that you put Kostner above Asada! You consider Kostner who has not landed ANYTHING with the triple toe at the end this season to be superior to Asada who on regular basis has been landing 2A+3T the whole season! Right, Asada had it underrotated at her first two competitions but at GPF and Japan Nationals it was huge and ratified. Kostner has only showed her combos in practice and this certainly not enough to even make the comparison with Asada's combos done out there on the ice under competitive pressure.

I can concede that many of Mao's spins are great, although I much prefer the extension Kostner's flying camel (which is better than Mao's) and Yu Na's combination and flying spins. Mao does have a nice layback, and Yu Na's is better when she's capable of adding a Biellmann. Kostner's layback is her weakest, so maybe I should have put Kim first and then Mao and then Kostner (since the other two don't really have a 'weak' spin). Mao also travels during some of her spins, just look at her freeskate at Japan Nationals.

I think Mao's inconsistency will be the main thing that holds her back from winning the World title - particularly on the 3Z and 3S. Her flip and loop are money for her, but those two question marks and potential under-rotation on her 2A-3T might be her downfall.

Speaking of which, Kostner is capable of a clean 3T-3T, much more than Asada, who has cleanly landed her 2A-3T at Japanese Nationals and NHK. I question Mao's ability to add a fully-rotated triple to any jump in combination, whereas at least Kostner has a shot at it. I can bet that at World's it will be under-rotated but hopefully she can get it sorted. BTW, Mao's 2A-3T at the GPF was not ratified... it was under-rotated and was marked down as such (http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf1213/gpf1213_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf). ;) Mao also missed it at the 2012 Japan Open doing 2A-2T, and at Cup of China it was 2A-3T<<. Hardly landing it "the whole season".
 
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chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Seems Asada's 2a+3t was fully rotated this year only when she was skating in Japan. I guess that means it will be ratified again at 4CC.
 

clairecloutier

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 27, 2003
Great comments on this thread. Very informative! I love how the Mao supporters have explained in such detail the considerable strengths Mao still brings to her skating, especially the difficulty of her transitions and choreography.

Right now, at this moment, I feel like Kim and Kostner are co-favorites for Worlds. Kim--because she is incredible, and she is Olympic champion. Kostner--because her basic skating is so gorgeous right now, and she is World champion. They have the credentials, they have the skating skills, and most importantly, the judges love them.

This does not necessarily mean Kim and Kostner will win gold and silver. I just think their chances are better than anyone else's.

Below them is quite a large group of medal contenders: Mao, Suzuki, Wagner, Osmond, Tuktamysheva, Sotnikova, and Gold.

Outside threats, to me, would be Korpi, Murakami, and Leonova (if she makes the team?).

For those arguing that Mao is co-favorite with Kim and Kostner, I'd say no. She should be, based on credentials and skating skills. But her jumping problems keep her from favorite status, IMO. The URs and edge calls are just tough to overcome.

We'll probably have a different picture, though, after 4CC. The showdown between Gold, Osmond, and the Japanese ladies should be fascinating. I really wish Yuna was competing as well!!
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Seems Asada's 2a+3t was fully rotated this year only when she was skating in Japan. I guess that means it will be ratified again at 4CC.

Well, not including the Japan Open (though she didn't attempt the 3T). To be fair, both times (NHK and JPN Nationals) where she did land it, both were clean 3Ts, particularly the one at Nationals, and not due to being in Japan.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Another reason I think Mao won't win... regarding her loop and flip, here's her season's history with them -- her flip has been a issue -- she has yet to skate a competition where she lands both 3Fs in the FS.

Japan Open: FS - both 3L clean, 3F clean, 3F underrotated
Cup of China: SP - 3F underrotated, 3L clean; FS - both 3F's underrotated, both 3L's clean
NHK: SP - 3F clean, 3L clean; FS - 2L, 3F, 3L, 2F
GPF: SP - 3F clean, 3L clean; FS - both 3L clean, one 3F clean, one 3F underrotated
Japanese Nationals: SP - 3F clean, 1L ; FS - both 3L clean (though IMO the second one was UR'ed), 3F clean, 2F
 

FSGMT

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
Another reason I think Mao won't win... regarding her loop and flip, here's her season's history with them -- her flip has been a issue -- she has yet to skate a competition where she lands both 3Fs in the FS.

Japan Open: FS - both 3L clean, 3F clean, 3F underrotated
Cup of China: SP - 3F underrotated, 3L clean; FS - both 3F's underrotated, both 3L's clean
NHK: SP - 3F clean, 3L clean; FS - 2L, 3F, 3L, 2F
GPF: SP - 3F clean, 3L clean; FS - both 3L clean, one 3F clean, one 3F underrotated
Japanese Nationals: SP - 3F clean, 1L ; FS - both 3L clean (though IMO the second one was UR'ed), 3F clean, 2F
That's really interesting, I hope she will be able to fix them, maybe taking back some transitions and telegraphing them a bit more, she has already an amazingly-choreographed program, if she doesn't have < in her flip a 0.25/0.50 lower TR score shouldn't affect her...
 

Bartek

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 29, 2009
I can concede that many of Mao's spins are great, although I much prefer the extension Kostner's flying camel (which is better than Mao's) and Yu Na's combination and flying spins. Mao does have a nice layback, and Yu Na's is better when she's capable of adding a Biellmann. Kostner's layback is her weakest, so maybe I should have put Kim first and then Mao and then Kostner (since the other two don't really have a 'weak' spin). Mao also travels during some of her spins, just look at her freeskate at Japan Nationals.

I think Mao's inconsistency will be the main thing that holds her back from winning the World title - particularly on the 3Z and 3S. Her flip and loop are money for her, but those two question marks and potential under-rotation on her 2A-3T might be her downfall.

Speaking of which, Kostner is capable of a clean 3T-3T, much more than Asada, who has cleanly landed her 2A-3T at Japanese Nationals and NHK. I question Mao's ability to add a fully-rotated triple to any jump in combination, whereas at least Kostner has a shot at it. I can bet that at World's it will be under-rotated but hopefully she can get it sorted. BTW, Mao's 2A-3T at the GPF was not ratified... it was under-rotated and was marked down as such (http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf1213/gpf1213_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf). ;) Mao also missed it at the 2012 Japan Open doing 2A-2T, and at Cup of China it was 2A-3T<<. Hardly landing it "the whole season".

Well, I should've said Mao has been attempting those 2A+3T's rather than landing cleanly but twice she got them ratified. This is progress. Generally her jumps have been improving since the beginning of the season. She's becoming more and more consistent. We will see what happens at 4CC.

Sorry but again I must say that Mao's spins are far better. You're claiming that Yu-Na's layback will be better when she adds the Biellman. This is ridiculous. Yu-Na has one of the worst layback posistions amongst top ladies I've ever seen. Her free leg posistion is atrocious. Every single variation in the layback Mao does a lot better than Kim. Just watch any layback of Mao's and of Kim's from any point from their careers. In classic layback position Mao has her back parallel to the ice, only a few in the whole history of the sport have achieved that. Her Biellman is one of the most beautiful currently in skating.

Mao's combination spin has far better positions than Yu-Na's and is equally fast. Yu-Na's I-spin is ugly when compared to Mao's one. Mao holds hers for eight revolutions maintaining its beauty as well as the speed and centering.

Mao's flying camel spin is her "weakest" because it was choreographed in such a way to minimise the time needed to garner level four. She fulfills few features at the same time, that is combines her difficult variariot with the change of edge. It's kind of rushed but it gives more time for the choreography and steps.

Mao travels much rarely than Kostner who virtually always travels on her combination spins.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
The judges seem to think otherwise with Yu Na consistently getting her GOE on her layback. Mao will slow down her layback, particularly in the Biellmann position, and her free leg, while better than Yu Na's, is still not the most attractive or high (especially in the sideways position). Sometimes Mao's combination spin will lose speed when she's switching sit positions after the change foot. Yu Na's I-spin is indeed less attractive, but she holds it for more rotations than Mao, too. Mao's flying spin in both programs is minimized, though I don't see why it has to be so rushed, particularly in her free... adding two or three rotations takes 3 seconds). Yu Na also has minimal rotations on her flying camel as Mao, but her flying camel has a harder variation of camel position in the lying back. Yu Na's flying sit is also much higher and faster rotations than any I've seen Mao do. Mao has a tendency to have better positions, but Yu Na tends to get more rotations and "completes" her spins better, IMO.
 

jaylee

Medalist
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Sorry but again I must say that Mao's spins are far better. You're claiming that Yu-Na's layback will be better when she adds the Biellman. This is ridiculous. Yu-Na has one of the worst layback posistions amongst top ladies I've ever seen. Her free leg posistion is atrocious. Every single variation in the layback Mao does a lot better than Kim. Just watch any layback of Mao's and of Kim's from any point from their careers. In classic layback position Mao has her back parallel to the ice, only a few in the whole history of the sport have achieved that. Her Biellman is one of the most beautiful currently in skating.

I have to disagree on what you're calling "ridiculous." Everything aside from Yu-Na's free leg position in her layback is and has been top notch over the seasons, including her back position and the overall speed. When she attempted the Biellmann, it was fine, though she's not attempting it now. (And btw, her free leg has improved this season.) Do I really need to link to Sandra Bezic and Scott Hamilton gushing over Yu-Na's layback at 2009 Worlds SP? I guess I do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zFDQpt92ygE#t=205s

Personally, I love this spin and this performance for all of the other qualities that it has, in spite of the lack of a pretty free leg position--that's just a nitpick though. (My favorite layback spin right now is that by Karen Chen, so it's not like I don't appreciate it at all.)

Anyway, that back position was as good as it gets--parallel to the ice. The quality of a spin is not only about position, by the way, though there's an overemphasis on that in this thread. Yu-Na also has the ability to accelerate in her layback spin, which is a feature so difficult to earn that very few ladies earned it during the 2006-2007 season when it was required to get a level 4. (During that season, Yu-Na was the only one to earn a level 4 layback spin twice, btw--2006 Skate Canada FS and 2007 Worlds SP, which is how she broke the world record.)

Mao's Biellmann is effortless and beautiful, but that's only one position in the layback. She also doesn't attempt the classic layback position all that often, so that makes it more difficult to compare her layback to Yu-Na's. I don't remember Mao getting her back parallel to the ice in classic position, but maybe you could provide some examples. In any case, Yu-Na has done plenty of good things in her layback spin, regardless of what Mao has or hasn't done.
 
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Bartek

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 29, 2009
I have to disagree on what you're calling "ridiculous." Everything aside from Yu-Na's free leg position in her layback is and has been top notch over the seasons, including her back position and the overall speed. When she attempted the Biellmann, it was fine, though she's not attempting it now. (And btw, her free leg has improved this season.) Do I really need to link to Sandra Bezic gushing over Yu-Na's layback at 2009 Worlds SP? I guess I do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zFDQpt92ygE#t=205s

Personally, I love this spin and this performance for all of the other qualities that it has, in spite of the lack of a pretty free leg position--that's just a nitpick though. (My favorite layback spin right now is that by Karen Chen, so it's not like I don't appreciate it at all.)

Anyway, that back position was as good as it gets--parallel to the ice. The quality of a spin is not only about position, by the way, though there's an overemphasis on that in this thread. Yu-Na also has the ability to accelerate in her layback spin, which is a feature so difficult to earn that very few ladies earned it during the 2006-2007 season when it was required to get a level 4. (During that season, Yu-Na was the only one to earn a level 4 layback spin twice, btw--2006 Skate Canada FS and 2007 Worlds SP, which is how she broke the world record.)

Mao's Biellmann is effortless and beautiful, but that's only one position in the layback. She also doesn't attempt the classic layback position all that often, so that makes it more difficult to compare her layback to Yu-Na's. I don't remember Mao getting her back parallel to the ice in classic position, but maybe you could provide some examples. In any case, Yu-Na has done plenty of good things in her layback spin, regardless of what Mao has or hasn't done.

I must say you've persuaded me a bit when it comes to Yu-Na's layback. It's very fast and well-centered, however her free leg position is so terrible that I just can't appreciate the whole thing "properly", its good qualities notwithstanding. I was skating-wise brought up listening to Dick Button and with all due respect to Sandra and Scott I respect his opinion more: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bYtM0vmtkM&t=2m34s
I don't deny it's fast and well-centered but the positions are inferior to those of Mao's.

Even though Yu-Na's layback is good indeed Mao's one is even better. She's a bit slower but keeps the centering as well as Yu-Na and every variation (not only speaking of laybacks) she does is aesthetically superior.

Mao doesn't do flying sit spin anymore but here is how it looked last season. High flying entrance, perfect centering, good speed and beautiful positions which require a lot of flexibility: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKVVFyB8w94&t=1m52s

Now the layback. It's true that Mao usually went for the lowered-leg position like Kwan did but her back position was absolutely perfectly straight and parallel to the ice. Last season, however, she did include classic layback position. It's brief, just 3 revolutions but still we can see that it is much better than Yu-Na's and I consider it better than the easier position with lowered leg. On the other hand, Mao changed her sideways position as well and it was not as good-looking as before. Biellman remained the same, as you said beautiful and effortless but it's held for 8 revulution as opposed to 3 in the older version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKVVFyB8w94&t=3m32s

Combination spin. I would take Mao any day again for her beautiful, aesthetically-pleasing and effortless positions. Yu-Na's I-spin used to be terrible: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bYtM0vmtkM&t=3m03s
Relatively poor stretch, bent knee and no pointed toe. It may be fast, centered, ok, but the position is just poor.

Now it's a little improved but still what Mao does in her combination spin is by far better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oz7GcVmhxjA&t=2m7s
Perfect line from skating leg up to the extended leg with beautifully pointed toes.

Edit: And for the poster who claims that Yu-Na holds her I-spin (hardly an I-spin actually with this poor stretch) longer than Mao. This season right but here you've got Asada using this very position as a feature for 8 revolutions in a spin for higher level: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKVVFyB8w94&t=2m19s actually 12 revolutions with continuous speed. And I dare say it looks much better than when Kim holds her I-spin for 8 revolutions.
 
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naan

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 6, 2012
3Z, Kim > Kostner (just got it back) >> Asada (still flutzes and doubles occasionally)
3F, Kim > Kostner > Asada (while Kostner and Kim have better technique and speed on their flip, Asada is consistently given good GOE for it, though... I give edge to Kim because she's able to tack on a 3T to hers, which is an advantage)
3L, Kostner >> Asada (Kostner has nicer transitions and better height and speed, Asada's is consistent, Kim doesn't attempt it so she really shouldn't be compared)
3S, Kostner = Kim >> Asada (Kostner has a nice salchow, but so does Kim, both do two of them, Asada's 3S is her worst)
XX-3T, Kim >>> Kostner > Asada (Kim is the only one who can reliably do her 3T in combos without UR... Kostner has a good 3T but sometimes makes errors, Asada often UR's it in combination with 2A)
2A, Asada > Kim > Kostner

Choreography/Performance
Kim > Kostner > Asada

Spins
Kostner > Kim > Asada

Consistency
Kim > Asada > Kostner

At this point I think Kim is obviously the one to beat and Kostner and Asada will duel it out for silver/bronze. Even though I think Kostner has better jumps than Asada, Asada is slightly more consistent and still gets similar GOE as Kostner. A huge advantage is in Kim's ability to tack on 3T to her flip/lutz/2A.
I mostly agree with you except 2A and spins, and probably 3S.
2A : Yuna > Mao > Caro : Yuna has huge, fluid 2A. She can do it out of an Ina Bauer and spread eagle as well as add 3T. Mao has great 2A, but she pre-rotates a lot than Yuna.
Spins : Mao > Yuna > Caro : Mao has flexibility, gorgeous balletic position. Yuna has fast, centered spins, her layover camel spin and layback are beautiful in my eyes.
3S : Caro > Yuna > Mao : Caro has one of the best 3S in ladies.


I have to disagree on what you're calling "ridiculous." Everything aside from Yu-Na's free leg position in her layback is and has been top notch over the seasons, including her back position and the overall speed. When she attempted the Biellmann, it was fine, though she's not attempting it now. (And btw, her free leg has improved this season.) Do I really need to link to Sandra Bezic and Scott Hamilton gushing over Yu-Na's layback at 2009 Worlds SP? I guess I do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zFDQpt92ygE#t=205s

Personally, I love this spin and this performance for all of the other qualities that it has, in spite of the lack of a pretty free leg position--that's just a nitpick though. (My favorite layback spin right now is that by Karen Chen, so it's not like I don't appreciate it at all.)

Anyway, that back position was as good as it gets--parallel to the ice. The quality of a spin is not only about position, by the way, though there's an overemphasis on that in this thread. Yu-Na also has the ability to accelerate in her layback spin, which is a feature so difficult to earn that very few ladies earned it during the 2006-2007 season when it was required to get a level 4. (During that season, Yu-Na was the only one to earn a level 4 layback spin twice, btw--2006 Skate Canada FS and 2007 Worlds SP, which is how she broke the world record.)

Mao's Biellmann is effortless and beautiful, but that's only one position in the layback. She also doesn't attempt the classic layback position all that often, so that makes it more difficult to compare her layback to Yu-Na's. I don't remember Mao getting her back parallel to the ice in classic position, but maybe you could provide some examples. In any case, Yu-Na has done plenty of good things in her layback spin, regardless of what Mao has or hasn't done.
Not only Scott and Sandra. Kurt also said, "That is exquisite"
http://youtu.be/1kc5mud9jQQ?t=2m

I think Yuna's spins are underrated because of her free leg position, whereas Mao's are somewhat overrated thanks to her beautiful positions.
As for the layback spin, Yuna's is faster and centered, her upper body is more flexible than Mao. It was really gorgeous live than TV, actually more impressive than Mao's.
Don't get me wrong, I think Mao's spins are better than Yuna. She has very great, beautiful spins. But Yuna is a good spinner, too. Pretty free leg position and toe point are not everything in spins ;)
 

Bartek

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 29, 2009
I mostly agree with you except 2A and spins, and probably 3S.
2A : Yuna > Mao > Caro : Yuna has huge, fluid 2A. She can do it out of an Ina Bauer and spread eagle as well as add 3T. Mao has great 2A, but she pre-rotates a lot than Yuna.
Spins : Mao > Yuna > Caro : Mao has flexibility, gorgeous balletic position. Yuna has fast, centered spins, her layover camel spin and layback are beautiful in my eyes.
3S : Caro > Yuna > Mao : Caro has one of the best 3S in ladies.



Not only Scott and Sandra. Kurt also said, "That is exquisite"
http://youtu.be/1kc5mud9jQQ?t=2m

I think Yuna's spins are underrated because of her free leg position, whereas Mao's are somewhat overrated thanks to her beautiful positions.
As for the layback spin, Yuna's is faster and centered, her upper body is more flexible than Mao. It was really gorgeous live than TV, actually more impressive than Mao's.
Don't get me wrong, I think Mao's spins are better than Yuna. She has very great, beautiful spins. But Yuna is a good spinner, too. Pretty free leg position and toe point are not everything in spins ;)

Mao's layback and spins in general are as well centered as Yu-Na's but definitely slower. However, Mao makes up this drawback with stunning positions. Her upper body is by far more flexible than Yu-Na's. Mao's back is basically flat to the ice showing much better stretch than Yu-Na, actually one of the best back positions in the history of figure skating (of course the free leg is not perfect in any way). In the Biellman position Mao again shows totally superior stretch to Yu-Na. Look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56hdpfuw36E&t=2m43s

When it comes to their axels I would give the edge to Mao again. I think this is her best jump actually, no wonder she occasionally bring it up to a triple. I cannot really see this pre-rotating issue you attach to Mao's 2A. To me it looks completely ok. While Yu-Na has been doing her double axel out of ina bauer or spread eagle for years, and this great of course as it adds difficulty to the jump, Mao has a difficult entrance of her own. Equally difficult as Yu-Na's spread eagle if not more but surely far more creative. How many times have we seen skaters using spread eagles as an entrance to garner more GOE? That had been practiced even before CoP emerged. I think I have never before seen a skater approaching a jump with a fan spiral and the one Mao does is of a highest quality: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oz7GcVmhxjA&t=46s
In terms of height, distance and flow they are comparable, both huge and covering a lot of ice but Mao definitely has better extention of the free leg than Yu-Na. Additionally, she lands the jump with two arms above her head which fullfils the bullet for creative/difficult exit as well. This is why she gets 2's across the board and I would give her the edge as far as 2A is concerned.
 
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