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Thread: Can Kostner hold off Russian babies?

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by prettykeys View Post
    Bartek, I agree with your post #115 completely, but I find myself agreeing with CanadianSkaterGuy's main argument: that champions should have SOME minimum/basement level of completed jumps to be eligible or respectable in a win. His viewpoint has been miscontrued in various discussions as "other skills in figure skating are not important", when in fact he is simply stressing that without enough jumps, it's rather lame when someone beats, for example, younger and less polished skaters who ARE reeling off say, 6-7 jumps in their LP's.

    Beautiful positions, artistic refinement, divine skating skills, etc. are all very important aspects of figure skating, but without the "meat" of a competitive program (i.e. jumps), I can't feel satisfied when someone wins gold over others who brought more of the sporting aspect in the SPORT of figure skating. I say this without picking out specifics in Michelle Kwan or Mao Asada or Carolina Kostner or whoever. And I don't nitpick so badly in whether it is "clean"; flutzes, lips, <'s, if they are landed I will preferably count them in the total tally (albeit less valued, of course.)

    The opposite argument, that "oh yes I am totally a fan of a 'COMPLETE skater' and someone who does 3 triples is an acceptable winner for me if they have great footwork, great engagement, great choreography, great positions, etc." is the one I completely disagree with. Keep those to Exhibitions, please.

    In the modern age, if you don't do at least 5 triples (in my view, that includes <'s, and edge calls if they are still landed relatively cleanly and non-disruptively) in a FS + 2 in the SP, then pass the gold to someone else who has, even if they are weaker in other areas.
    I completely agree with you. One absolutely needs "the meat" besides all those skills you've listed. The thing is that I consider Mao's WONDERFUL GPF free skate to have had both "the meat" and all the other qulities and I was pissed off when some posters, especially gmyers repeatedly insulted Mao in numerous threads and claimed that her GPF win was worthless. I'm sorry, but as much as Michelle's underrotated jumps and flutzes did not disrupt the flow and the overall impression of her program, Mao's two underrotation and the flutz did not either. Of course, those technical glitches take away a little from both program's technical value and should not be seen as full 7-triples programs but to say there were only 3 clean triples landed is a terrible exaggeration put forward in order to diminish (and in some cases insult) Mao. All in all, both program were gorgeousm even with those flaws.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    Well, Bartek, you know that I will always revere Kwan, especially in Black Swan, no matter how anyone explains it, but I also root for Mao. Can you tell me what you feel about her prognosis for the future, considering the stage she is at right now, a year before Sochi? I'd love for her to be a contender for gold, though I've learned to live with disappointment, and I won't love her skating any less if it doesn't win the ultimate prize. (Remember Janet Lynn!) But I'd like to see her succeed with her bold and grueling plan to rebuild her jumps. I'd like for both Mao and Mr. Sato to have that feeling of satisfaction. And I'd like for us fans to have it also.

    So I repeat my question. What is your take, Bartek, on Mao's progress?
    I think the whole process of changing Mao's technique will be completed just before Sochi Olympics as Coach Sato predicts. He is a very wise man and he knows what he's doing. Mao also knows the consequences of their decision and knowingly agreed to take on the process that would bring her a lot of criticism for struggling with the jumps.

    At this point she has improved the technique of three jumps that is flip, toeloop and salchow. In case of her flip, she doesn't terribly bent her upper-body forward anymore and she's gotten rid of her mule kick. She lifts her leg considerably below the old level and now this aspect is actually perfect. Her edge used to change from very deep inside to very deep outside and then to very deep inside again the moment she took off. This aspect has improved as well. The problem is that by the time she gets to take off of her flip she has not enough speed and consequently she underrotates or pops the jump every now and then. As I've written in my analysis she does just two crossovers as she approeches the second flip combination and a few turns on one foot and it leaves her with lack of speed. I am surprised that Tarasova designed those flips' setups in such a way. Of course it's great that Mao has those transitions contrarily to Kostner/Kim/Suzuki but she doesn't have enough time to gain speed with just two crossovers. The other skaters usually do 5 or 6 crosses skating beside the edge of the rink and then go straight through the whole rink doing nothing until they reach the opposite side of the rink and hit the jump. Therefore, Mao is currently working on her speed during the take-off and again it's a process that requires time. She has fixed her technique but now she needs to develop speed.

    The triple toeloop in her 2A+3T combination has never been so huge and has never covered as much distance as now and she is definitely on her way to develop good consistency with this jump.

    She has also changed her habit of two-footed Salchow take-off and now she does a standard one with a three-turn. This change has clearly resulted in an increase in consistency.

    I'm afraid she will never get rid of her flutzing but consistency on this jump has been improving slowly but surely as well. Tarasova has added a difficult exit to the jump what helps minimise the negative GOE Mao would normally get.

    By and large, I belive that by Sochi Mao will be an OMG condender. It looks like Sochi will be a showdown of old experienced veterens - Mao, Yu-Na and Carolina and probably the last chance to admire those skaters.

  3. #123
    The Comeback Kid Minze2001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartek View Post
    I completely agree with you. One absolutely needs "the meat" besides all those skills you've listed. The thing is that I consider Mao's WONDERFUL GPF free skate to have had both "the meat" and all the other qulities and I was pissed off when some posters, especially gmyers repeatedly insulted Mao in numerous threads and claimed that her GPF win was worthless. I'm sorry, but as much as Michelle's underrotated jumps and flutzes did not disrupt the flow and the overall impression of her program, Mao's two underrotation and the flutz did not either. Of course, those technical glitches take away a little from both program's technical value and should not be seen as full 7-triples programs but to say there were only 3 clean triples landed is a terrible exaggeration put forward in order to diminish (and in some cases insult) Mao. All in all, both program were gorgeousm even with those flaws.
    Agree with you bartek. If another skater makes mistakes they were having a bad day. But for some people if Mao makes mistakes: she is a bad jumper, she is regressing skating, she cheats all her jumps, she is done, she is inferior to the top ladies, all her wins this season are worthless. The thing that make it so bad for Mao fans, some take a positive and constructive thread about Mao to bash her.

    Hey I am all for constructive criticism, but when you declare that an skater who won this season is atrocious .....
    By the way the people who say she should not win cant not say who else should have won instead.

    Example GF who was better than Mao.

    But this amimosity towards Mao, you hear from commentators who compare Mao against another skater.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minze2001 View Post
    Agree with you bartek. If another skater makes mistakes they were having a bad day. But for some people if Mao makes mistakes: she is a bad jumper, she is regressing skating, she cheats all her jumps, she is done, she is inferior to the top ladies, all her wins this season are worthless. The thing that make it so bad for Mao fans, some take a positive and constructive thread about Mao to bash her.
    "if mao makes mistakes?" she showed bad jumps throughout the season. not "rarely"
    she does not clean more than half of her triple jumps in this season. (3lo 8/9 3lz 0/3 3f 4/9 3s 1/3 3t 1/3)
    So she hear "her jumps are not good" rather than "just the rarely mistake"

    however, her winning in this season, it was not overwhelming or mao on her class, but her winning was rightful.
    by the way, i love her program, swan lake.
    Last edited by venlac; 02-07-2013 at 11:03 AM.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by venlac View Post
    "if mao makes mistakes?" she showed bad jumps throughout the season. not "rarely"
    she does not clean more than half of her triple jumps in this seoson. (3lo 8/9 3lz 0/3 3f 4/9 3s 1/3 3t 1/3)
    So she hear "her jumps are not good" rather than "just the rarely mistake"

    however, her winning in this season, it was not overwhelming or mao on her class, but her winning was rightful.
    by the way, i love her program, swan lake.
    Right, her jumps are in the state of work and she still has problems with them but the GPF win was fair and square with fantastic performance, both technically and artistically. We can argue whether her victories at NHK and CoC were justified, it's another matter, but the skate from GPF should not be diminished and insulted.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I'm not sure what you meant? Kwan landed 3L/3T-3T(slightly UR)/3Z-2T/3S/3F/2A/3Z... in one of her best programs. Slutskaya had excellent technical content but lost 7-2 to Michelle because she two-footed her under-rotated 3Z-3L, and under-rotated her 3S-3L, but still a very ambitious program. With Asada/Kostner the opposite is happening... a skater with more triples will end up losing or placing only 1 or 2 points ahead in the FS in spite of Asada/Kostner making errors, thanks to PCS disadvantage. At least when Kwan has done poorly (for her) and lands only 4 or 5 triples, she would actually lose to skaters who complete 6 or 7.
    How do you explain Kwan's placement in the SLC SP with her underotated triple flip? Her second mark was generous and the judges held other skaters down even in the first mark to leave room to put her there. If Sarah Hughes got dinged for her Flutz, Kwan had no reason leading the competition after that SP.

    Abusing the second mark has always been what Skating Judging was all about, and TES/PCS is not much different than Technical Merit/Presentation in that regard.

    People think skating is a joke these days because they simply changed the system for the sake of change, and the real issues didn't really get solved.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartek View Post
    Kwan's lutzez were flutzed (as always) so that's already two less triples. Her second 3T would definitely get <, it wasn't "slightly" underrotated. Her triple flip was clearly half a turn short and would very likely get downgraded with << sign. That's only 4 clean triples. What's more, both triple flutzes were very borderline and they could get < as well. Michelle had that ability to cheat her jumps in such a way that it was imperceptible without slowmotion. But, nevermind - Sarah Hughes cheated so badly that you see it with a naked eye and yet the judges couldn't care less about it...
    Lol. I agree.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Hmm, I think Michelle's jumps while sometimes UR'ed or flutzed (which, mind you, wasn't as much of a big deal until the IJS, so arguably she played to her strengths if she wasn't getting deducted), she had a quality of finishing them that didn't disrupt her performance. Slutskaya's errors, as Peggy said, looked sloppy, which detracts from the performance.

    Don't get on Michelle's case if you don't also get on the case of the number of World Champions before her who flutzed and UR'ed but still got away with it. At 2001 Worlds LP, arguably Irina lipped her flip, and she certainly flutzed on her lutz.

    And yes I said Michelle's 3-3 was "slightly underrotated" as in it would have got the < call, as you yourself said she would. It wasn't under-rotated so much as a downgrade. Her flip would have gotten a < too, but not a <<. Also, I don't see how her lutzes could have gotten <? Both looked within 1/4 turn when her skate hit the ice. The judges gave her 5.7 and 5.8 for that. I think the UR on the flip and toe loop would account for that. Slutskaya on the other hand also got 5.7/5.8/5.9 when she was < on her salchow-loop, and << with a step out on her lutz-loop. Similar errors as Kwan. Really she was given 5.9 for attempting the 3-3's, not actually landing them. But then Kwan won on artistry (which made sense). So I think the competition was correctly called. It's remarkable that Slutskaya attempted two 3-3 but attempts only get you so much credit.

    As for Hughes, even though her 3-3 were UR, the rest of her program was flawless when Kwan and Slutskaya both had significant errors. Hughes' errors didn't affect the "look" of the program either as they were subtle UR and not glaring falls or step outs. It was a very good thing for figure skating -- especially with the 2002 scandal -- that Sarah Hughes won the gold medal in 2002. Many wanted Kwan to win, but when both she and Slutskaya erred and Slutskaya performed better than Kwan, the judges had no choice but to put Sarah first. People knock Sarah for underrotating her 3-3, but at least she didn't play it safe and still make obvious errors as Kwan/Slutskaya did. If she had done double loops instead of triple loops, she still would have had a cleaner program.
    Peggy and Dick are generally best disregarded when discussing non-US skaters that competed in the same competition as Michelle Kwan. Even when she skated lights out, they never had anything good to say (he had to fight to say anything good about Butyrskaya and Volchkova, as well). At the 1999 Keri Lotion Figure Skating Classic Dick Button found a way to insult her after a flawless performance. It was a shameful moment for US commentating. I'm glad he's no long on the air - both of them (not that Scott and Sandra are much better, however).

    Whether Sarah did double loops was inconsequential since even the first jumps were often UR'd or took off the wrong edge - her 3Lz-2Lp combo in the SP for example. In any case, if Kwan had been dinged for her UR 3Flip in SLC Slutskaya would have won the SP (as she should have) and ultimately the Gold Medal. Under IJS they would have killed her (Hugues), literally, on the TES front. She would have gotten quite a few "Mirai Moments" with the scoring due to her inability to take off or land her jumps properly. Like Michelle, however, she was quite gifted at making those landings look flawless. Props to her (and Robin Wagner) for that.

    ---

    Back to the sorta off-topic discussion that was going on... Does anyone else find it odd how Asada carries such little flow out of her jumps? Even when she was doing triple axels they barely moved on the landing. It looks like she sometimes lands on the flats of her blade, which may have something to do with it. She's certainly gifted at getting a vertical and straight (as a pencil) air position, but I think her flag landing is what has caused her to become so accustomed to URing her jumps. I don't like the lack of flow she usually gets coming out of them, either. That's a bulletpoint for getting GOE on a jump as well.
    Last edited by SkateNater; 02-07-2013 at 11:07 AM.

  9. #129
    The Comeback Kid Minze2001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by venlac View Post
    "if mao makes mistakes?" she showed bad jumps throughout the season. not "rarely"
    she does not clean more than half of her triple jumps in this season. (3lo 8/9 3lz 0/3 3f 4/9 3s 1/3 3t 1/3)
    So she hear "her jumps are not good" rather than "just the rarely mistake"

    however, her winning in this season, it was not overwhelming or mao on her class, but her winning was rightful.
    by the way, i love her program, swan lake.
    Yeah ok people can think what they want. As a Mao fan I aknowledge that she is not 100 percent in form. But why use every topic to point out her negatives. (By now we know how some of you feel about her jumps. By the way I am not talking about you).

  10. #130
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    How did Kostner vs. Russian teenagers become Mao vs. Kim, with a side light on Dick, Peggy, Sarah & Michelle?

    Does anyone have any on-topic comments?

    There is already a Mao vs. Kim thread....
    http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sho...569#post708569

  11. #131
    Custom Title prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    How did Kostner vs. Russian teenagers become Mao vs. Kim, with a side light on Dick, Peggy, Sarah & Michelle?

    Does anyone have any on-topic comments?

    There is already a Mao vs. Kim thread....
    http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sho...569#post708569
    But the conversation is not Mao vs. Kim so I don't see how that link is relevant...

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateNater View Post
    How do you explain Kwan's placement in the SLC SP with her underotated triple flip? Her second mark was generous and the judges held other skaters down even in the first mark to leave room to put her there. If Sarah Hughes got dinged for her Flutz, Kwan had no reason leading the competition after that SP.
    The topic of 2002 SLC ladies event seems to be coming up frequently but put quite bluntly all 3 U.S skaters were overmarked at that competition and benefited from home ice advantage. Had the Olympics been in Europe and the same programs skated the short program results would have been:

    1. Slutskaya
    2. Butyrskaya or Kwan (Maria beat Michelle in the SP at the GP final when both were clean and essentialy the same performances as SLC, with Kwan one iffy but acceptable jump, and Maria a bit iffy and slow just like SLC)
    4. Cohen (would have deserved 2nd in the SP but been put 4th based on lack of rep)
    5. Suguri
    6. Sebeysten
    7. Hughes (never gets 4th with that lame performance anywhere else)
    8. Robinson (maybe even 7th over Hughes)

    While the LPs would probably have been:

    1. Slutskaya
    2. Hughes (probably deserved to win LP, but not skating in final group would have never happened)
    3. Suguri or Kwan
    5. Cohen
    6. Butyrskaya (although she probably skates better LP had she done better in SP)

    Final overall standings:

    Gold- Slutskaya
    Silver- Kwan
    Bronze- Hughes
    4th- Suguri
    5- Cohen
    6- Butyrskaya (although as I said who knows how she skates LP had she done better in SP)

  13. #133
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Well, I'm not at all sure what the thread is about at this point.

    You guys seem to be rehashing Salt Lake Olympics and whether Kim or Mao have any jump flaws.

    There is nothing wrong with those topics
    Just start a thread for them on their own.

    I am very by this thread

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Li'Kitsu View Post
    But using every opportunity you get to post in every single thread how a skater is completly "atrocious" is deranged hate (and after NHK/GPF in really every therad I read was a negative comment from gmyers about Mao).
    Maybe it's not mainly Mao-hate, but whatever kind of hate, it's useless, exaggerated and insulting.

    If a skater changes, nobody says you need to be a fan - but that doesn't mean you have to become insutling towards a skater. Just leave them alone and that's it. All of those skaters are working hard, one can dislike them all they want to, but you need to keep a certain amount of respect.
    I'd rather say Minze2001 has said the exact right thing.


    Oh, and Bartek, thanks a lot for all your lovely comments and analysis about Mao. I always enjoy reading them very much
    No this is wrong. The post by IP was correct. Someone posted the idea that Mao had problems 2010-2011 and 2011-2012 but this season was great and that is just not accurate. < and << exist in COP and must be taken into account. If it was 6.0 then there would be no < and << so there would be no Mao really didn't do triples. But in 6.0 or COP you would know if someone had stopped doing a 3A!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartek View Post
    YIrina always took off her lutzes on a flat, neither outside nor inside edge. Michelle took off hers more on the inside edge than flat. Thus, Michelle would get "e" while Irina "!" should we use the rules that were in force until 2009/2010 season.
    You can't say that she would get a "!" and she doesn't flutz. It's like saying "somebody barely completed a jump and would thus get a <". A flutz is a flutz. Her flutz isn't as severe as Michelle's but it's still a flutz (in this LP, I should say). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B625Ey2bwVc (pause at 5:53 where it clearly goes on an inside edge before her skate leaves the ice.

    As for Mao's GPF win. There was nothing remarkable about the win, but it was deserved. The PCS was too high considering the mistakes she made, but even if the PCS were reduced she still would have won, so it doesn't affect the outcome. Obviously at NHK it's more of an issue because the results might have been different (and really, should have been).

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