Page 1 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 134

Thread: Double standard? (Men's FS vs. Women's SP/Pairs FS)

  1. #1
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    5,481

    Double standard? (Men's FS vs. Women's SP/Pairs FS)

    I'm still coming to grips with why people are up in arms over Chan losing the FS to Ten due to major errors, when Kostner was placed ahead in the SP over clean skates by Murakami and Osmond and a clean Li in the FS, in spite of falls/pop, and the Germans placed ahead in the FS over 2 virtually-clean Canadian teams in spite of multiple major errors.

    Clearly Chan is a better skater with a better program than Ten and got good (but not his best) PCS which rightfully wasn't not enough to win the FS (but enough overall). Clearly Kostner is a better skater than Murakami/Osmond/Li and got higher PCS which was still enough to lead in the SP and beat Li in the FS. Clearly the Germans are a better pair than D/R and MT/M, and their PCS allowed them to overtake the Canadians overall.

    So (general Chan hating aside) why are people more outraged at a PCS-superior unclean skater rightfully losing the FS to a clean skater, than a PCS-superior Kostner/Germans with errors winning the SP/FS over clean skaters? Seems like a similar scenario, so why the double standard?

  2. #2
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2,220
    For me, what distinguishes Kostner's performance in the SP vs. Chan's performance in the LP is that Kostner, even though she made the single mistake, never let the program go. She skated like she never made the mistake, with full-body interpretation and commitment to the music and choreography throughout. Plus, she only made one mistake. Overall impression of the program was not that much affected. I am OK with high PCS in this situation.

    With Chan, it was not only the multiple, glaring mistakes, which had a much greater impact on the overall impression of his program than a single mistake like Kostner's SP. It wasn't only that. It was also the fact that all the mistakes really seemed to have affected Chan's performance of the program. He tensed up. His choreography seemed more rote, he seemed like he was going through the motions, his movements much less expansive. Projection to the audience went down. If we compare Chan's performance at Worlds to performance of La Boheme like he did at Rostelecom Cup this year, there is a world of difference between the two. Is it wrong that I want PCS to be negatively affected when Chan skates a tense, distracted performance like he did at Worlds?

    I haven't fully watched the pairs event at Worlds so I'm not going to comment on that.

  3. #3
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    4,147
    Give up your campaign in defense of Chan, it is not going to get you anywhere. Kostner and Asada did not make as many errors and did not skate as poorly as Chan in the LP by a long ways, their couple errors did not disrupt the program like Chan's disaesterous last 3 minutes of skating did, and the performances of Murakami and Li while good where nowhere the brilliant performance of Ten, or even as strong as the Fernandez and Hanyu LPs were.

  4. #4
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    7,663
    I agree with pangtongfan. It's no use defending Chan when Chan himself has been unable to convince skating fans that he deserved that medal. Give it up, canadianskaterguy. You're beating a dead horse, and I am an equine lover.

  5. #5
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    3,234
    Also, canadianskaterguy, your forum name and this thread are going to get your in trouble with the Chan haters as well.

    Chan's scores were over-inflated which allowed him to win as he gave up on the performance in the LP and his SP score was too high, even as clean as it was as that didn't deserve the GOEs it got. Ten's scores were inflated to compensate for what the judges had given Chan because, well, they realized what they had done...
    Kostner's SP score was a little inflated (should have gotten < on the 3T) and it was a shame about the pop (which was penalized in the TES) and the 3S in the LP but she NEVER gave up on the performance in either program and her LP must have been amazing in person because the crowd went wild throughout her program in various places and even on a streaming feed, you could FEEL the program. That says to me that it was INCREDIBLY well presented.

  6. #6
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    157
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I'm still coming to grips with why people are up in arms over Chan losing the FS to Ten due to major errors, when Kostner was placed ahead in the SP over clean skates by Murakami and Osmond and a clean Li in the FS, in spite of falls/pop, and the Germans placed ahead in the FS over 2 virtually-clean Canadian teams in spite of multiple major errors.

    Clearly Chan is a better skater with a better program than Ten and got good (but not his best) PCS which rightfully wasn't not enough to win the FS (but enough overall). Clearly Kostner is a better skater than Murakami/Osmond/Li and got higher PCS which was still enough to lead in the SP and beat Li in the FS. Clearly the Germans are a better pair than D/R and MT/M, and their PCS allowed them to overtake the Canadians overall.

    So (general Chan hating aside) why are people more outraged at a PCS-superior unclean skater rightfully losing the FS to a clean skater, than a PCS-superior Kostner/Germans with errors winning the SP/FS over clean skaters? Seems like a similar scenario, so why the double standard?
    Kostner had a few major errors. Chan was a complete disaster.

  7. #7
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    5,481
    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Give up your campaign in defense of Chan, it is not going to get you anywhere. Kostner and Asada did not make as many errors and did not skate as poorly as Chan in the LP by a long ways, their couple errors did not disrupt the program like Chan's disaesterous last 3 minutes of skating did, and the performances of Murakami and Li while good where nowhere the brilliant performance of Ten, or even as strong as the Fernandez and Hanyu LPs were.
    It's not just in defense of Chan, it's holding all disciplines to the same standard. Let's take a look at Chan's/Kostner's/Germans' errors:

    Kostner - a fall in the SP ; a triple downgraded with a fall + triple turned to a single in the LP
    Chan - a clean SP ; a fall on a lutz, a triple under-rotated with a fall (and on a 3A, not an easy 3S) + a stepout on a 3F-3S sequence + a triple turned into a double
    Germans - a clean SP ; a fall on what counts as a double; a triple-triple turned to a double-double, a two-footed throw

    Yes, the NUMBER of errors was great for Chan than Kostner/the Germans, but the severity of errors, collectively, was about the same. And note that Chan's were on harder jumping passes than Kostner's. The difference is, Chan actually lost his segment with these errors, and Kostner and the Germans earned PCS that placed them higher than those with cleaner skates.

    Also if you want to talk about disrupting a program, Kostner's fall was at the end, disrupting her final pose with the music and her fall was the last thing the judges saw. As for the Germans, I think we can all agree that they tightened up throughout their program the way Chan did, and yet, like Chan, their PCS didn't really suffer for it, even with the errors.

    I think comparing Kostner (excellent PCS) to Murakami (good but not great PCS) is a fair example of comparing Chan (excellent PCS) to Ten (good but not great PCS).
    Kostner: fell in the SP; popped a loop and fell on a downgraded 3S at the end of her FS
    Murakami: clean SP; under-rotated both loops and turned a 2A into a single A.
    Clearly, Murakami's errors were collectively less severe. But since Kostner is viewed as a far better skater she can skate an SP and and FS, both with falls, and still place second over a skater with a few URs (thanks to an 8.5 PCS advantage in the FS.
    It's pretty odd that the skater with the 4th best TES in the SP and 6th best TES in the LP gets the silver medal, and nobody questions her PCS holding her up.

    I'm not defending Chan's PCS, I'm saying that people seem to think the PCS discrepancy between error-packed Germans/Kostner over a relatively cleaner MT&M/Murakami should be a big gap, but somehow when Chan makes errors over a relatively cleaner Ten it's a huge deal.

  8. #8
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    322
    Could it be that neither Kostner nor the Germans won? Chan walked away with the title and it is a lot more significant than placing second. It is only natural that a world champion with multiple errors causes a lot more controversy than a second-place finisher.

  9. #9
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2,220
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Entire post
    You're still just counting errors as opposed to also looking at how each skater skated outside of the errors.

    Kostner's fall in the LP was very disruptive, but it was literally right at the end and lasted only a few seconds. Everything before that was mesmerizing, even with the pop. While Chan was tense and out of it for FAR longer, pretty much a disaster for the entire program after he landed his first two jumping passes.

    Big difference.

  10. #10
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    3,100
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    It's not just in defense of Chan, it's holding all disciplines to the same standard. Let's take a look at Chan's/Kostner's/Germans' errors:

    Kostner - a fall in the SP ; a triple downgraded with a fall + triple turned to a single in the LP
    Chan - a clean SP ; a fall on a lutz, a triple under-rotated with a fall (and on a 3A, not an easy 3S) + a stepout on a 3F-3S sequence + a triple turned into a double
    Germans - a clean SP ; a fall on what counts as a double; a triple-triple turned to a double-double, a two-footed throw

    Yes, the NUMBER of errors was great for Chan than Kostner/the Germans, but the severity of errors, collectively, was about the same. And note that Chan's were on harder jumping passes than Kostner's. The difference is, Chan actually lost his segment with these errors, and Kostner and the Germans earned PCS that placed them higher than those with cleaner skates.

    Also if you want to talk about disrupting a program, Kostner's fall was at the end, disrupting her final pose with the music and her fall was the last thing the judges saw. As for the Germans, I think we can all agree that they tightened up throughout their program the way Chan did, and yet, like Chan, their PCS didn't really suffer for it, even with the errors.

    I think comparing Kostner (excellent PCS) to Murakami (good but not great PCS) is a fair example of comparing Chan (excellent PCS) to Ten (good but not great PCS).
    Kostner: fell in the SP; popped a loop and fell on a downgraded 3S at the end of her FS
    Murakami: clean SP; under-rotated both loops and turned a 2A into a single A.
    Clearly, Murakami's errors were collectively less severe. But since Kostner is viewed as a far better skater she can skate an SP and and FS, both with falls, and still place second over a skater with a few URs (thanks to an 8.5 PCS advantage in the FS.
    It's pretty odd that the skater with the 4th best TES in the SP and 6th best TES in the LP gets the silver medal, and nobody questions her PCS holding her up.

    I'm not defending Chan's PCS, I'm saying that people seem to think the PCS discrepancy between error-packed Germans/Kostner over a relatively cleaner MT&M/Murakami should be a big gap, but somehow when Chan makes errors over a relatively cleaner Ten it's a huge deal.
    The problem for me is that Chan had multiple errors in one program. I can pretty much live with a fall in one program and still evaluate the rest of the program. I would have given Dai the Olympic title.

    But what I can't stand is when I start seeing multiple errors in the program. Chan had three very glaring errors in his long and then a double jump. The stumble was hands down if I remember. Its a huge difference between Kostner's errors (only one of which affected the overall impression of the program, the pop didn't affect the flow)

  11. #11
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Texas, United States
    Posts
    4,980
    Quote Originally Posted by babayaga View Post
    Could it be that neither Kostner nor the Germans won? Chan walked away with the title and it is a lot more significant than placing second. It is only natural that a world champion with multiple errors causes a lot more controversy than a second-place finisher.
    I certainly agree with this. When you win a World Championship with a wreck of a FS like Chan did, it signals that the rest of the field must have surely bombed badly - but that was not the case, the 2nd place finisher had the two programs of his life. In the ladies, the World Champion is not only a world-class skater but also delivered two clean programs - her winning and running away with it was justified. In pairs too, V/T were the class of the field and won. Placing 2nd at Worlds does not make you World champion, it means someone was better than you. Given that, it's ok for a really great skater with errors to place 2nd, because no one is corresponding their performances as those of being the best in the World. Make sense?

  12. #12
    Custom Title spikydurian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    981
    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Give up your campaign in defense of Chan,
    Give up your whinging and hatred campaign of Chan too. Why the double talk?

    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm
    You're beating a dead horse
    And so are you.

  13. #13
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,825
    Duhamel and Radford should have won the silver medal. Savchenko and Solkowy's performance, like Bolero itself -- I though it would never end.

  14. #14
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    349
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    It's not just in defense of Chan, it's holding all disciplines to the same standard. Let's take a look at Chan's/Kostner's/Germans' errors:

    Kostner - a fall in the SP ; a triple downgraded with a fall + triple turned to a single in the LP
    Chan - a clean SP ; a fall on a lutz, a triple under-rotated with a fall (and on a 3A, not an easy 3S) + a stepout on a 3F-3S sequence + a triple turned into a double
    Germans - a clean SP ; a fall on what counts as a double; a triple-triple turned to a double-double, a two-footed throw

    Yes, the NUMBER of errors was great for Chan than Kostner/the Germans, but the severity of errors, collectively, was about the same. And note that Chan's were on harder jumping passes than Kostner's. The difference is, Chan actually lost his segment with these errors, and Kostner and the Germans earned PCS that placed them higher than those with cleaner skates.

    Also if you want to talk about disrupting a program, Kostner's fall was at the end, disrupting her final pose with the music and her fall was the last thing the judges saw. As for the Germans, I think we can all agree that they tightened up throughout their program the way Chan did, and yet, like Chan, their PCS didn't really suffer for it, even with the errors.

    I think comparing Kostner (excellent PCS) to Murakami (good but not great PCS) is a fair example of comparing Chan (excellent PCS) to Ten (good but not great PCS).
    Kostner: fell in the SP; popped a loop and fell on a downgraded 3S at the end of her FS
    Murakami: clean SP; under-rotated both loops and turned a 2A into a single A.
    Clearly, Murakami's errors were collectively less severe. But since Kostner is viewed as a far better skater she can skate an SP and and FS, both with falls, and still place second over a skater with a few URs (thanks to an 8.5 PCS advantage in the FS.
    It's pretty odd that the skater with the 4th best TES in the SP and 6th best TES in the LP gets the silver medal, and nobody questions her PCS holding her up.

    I'm not defending Chan's PCS, I'm saying that people seem to think the PCS discrepancy between error-packed Germans/Kostner over a relatively cleaner MT&M/Murakami should be a big gap, but somehow when Chan makes errors over a relatively cleaner Ten it's a huge deal.
    Seriously. Go back and look at the GoE as compared to the actual scores for both Ten and Chan in the SP:

    Chan's 4T-3T got +1.57 with a shaky 4T and no flow or speed out of the 3T. Chan's knee bend saved that jump. In comparison Ten's FLAWLESS 4T got +1.71. I'm sorry, but Ten's Quad deserved a straight rows of +2 or +3, it was perfection.
    Ten's 3A was comparable to Chan's if not better, cause Patrick was a bit (and I mean a bit) pitched forward, yet Chan is .14 better in GoE.
    In PCS in the SP:
    I get that Chan is going to have better SS, Transitions, and perhaps Choreo, but Chan was 1 point ahead of him in Performance/Execution and in Interpretation? Absolutely overscored. Chan's was NOT the perfect performance and he shouldn't have had that big of a lead going into the Free.

    Again: I think Chan should have won that segment, but he wasn't 7 points clear of Ten. Ten gave an almost faultless short that was free of tension and full of expression. Chan was tight and nervous and you can see that in the landings of some of his jumps.

    In the LP: I've already discussed how Chan was held up in specific area of PCS (Skating Skills and Interpretation he was actually HIGHER than Ten. Ridiculous, when you think about the performances they both put out on the ice in the free.) Also, how does someone that falls twice and has two other noticeable errors, coupled with the marring of the artistic quality that those error wrought in the rest of his program only lose the Performance/Execution mark by .3 to Ten?

    Stop trying to defend Chan's victory. It is absolutely indefensible and the poster child for everything that is wrong with this system.

    Quote Originally Posted by babayaga View Post
    Could it be that neither Kostner nor the Germans won? Chan walked away with the title and it is a lot more significant than placing second. It is only natural that a world champion with multiple errors causes a lot more controversy than a second-place finisher.
    1000 times this.

  15. #15
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    159
    Hey... We all know linkage between Score(mainly PCS, somewhat TES) and Nationality.
    Need discussion? I don't think so.

Page 1 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •