Worst Ladies Quadrenial Ever?
Coming off of US nat'ls and looking ahead towards worlds I'm feeling a bit deflatated. The veterans are flagging and the youngsters are still struggling to find thier way. I could say the same about 2011 and 2012. If YuNa rocks it maybe I'll feel differently....hmmm. Am I just over romanticizing the past?
Last edited by ivy; 02-01-2013 at 10:41 AM.
can't come down to Earth
Well, I feel differently! I'm pretty excited! YuNa, Mao, Carolina, Liza, Adelina, Julia, Gracie, Kaetlyn, Kanako...so many interesting challengers stepping up to the plate. 2011 and 2012 were meh, I agree. But things are getting heated.
Originally Posted by ivy
2010 to 2014 is the worst. There is no comparison to the bottom that this quad has reached in skating history for ladies. I am talking about jumping! The jumping regression has no comparison in history in ladies. It is so bad! This is the bottom. It has to be rescued from it's horrible nature by Yuna Kim winning everything from worlds 2013 to Olympics 2014. I am very concerned about a 3 or 4 triple Mao or Carolina winning everything. There is no reason to believe Mao or Carolina will become respectable jumpers. Pcs has given Mao and Carolina wins that involve the least difficulty in jumping in decades. People defend then saying jumps aren't everything but can they be something? Lol!
Interesting, and I'm wondering if this is actually true. Sure, it feels like the jumps are the worst they've ever been re: women's skating, but haven't we been seeing 4-6 triple programs winning everything for the past decade or so? Maybe yes, maybe no, but I think there are two reasons why triple counts are lower than they have been in the past 2 quadrennials.
Originally Posted by gmyers
1. TES: I think this has less to do with jumping ability and more to do with the IJS and its penalties for underrotations and incorrect edge takeoffs. It leads skaters to avoid unnecessary penalties. I think this is a good thing. I rather see a 5 triple program with two clean 2As than a 7 triple program with 2 flutzes. Meissner's 7 triple program from 2006 worlds would get destroyed by the version of the IJS now in use. Same with Arakawa in 2004 (worlds) and Slutskaya in 2005 (worlds), but certainly to a lesser extent.
2. PCS: With all that IJS requires re: spins, footwork, choreography, transitions, etc., skaters don't have time to work on 3-3s or adding that pesky 3loop. The hit that their PCS would take simply is not worth it. Sure, they could telegraph a 3Lz, train that 3lz, and spend lots of practice time working on that telegraphed 3lz, but is it worth the drop in PCS? I don't think it is.
A big part of it really involves how both Mao and Carolina are so below their best capabilities. You know what they have done in the last and for both it is a spectacular collapse in jumping ability. And under IJS too! Their jumps spins and steps under IJS got them great Tes! And their pcs marks were good too. Now they rely on pcs and their Tes relies on spins and steps! Jumps are filler for both of them. They still want to be successful in competitions but use jumps as filler stuff now with seemingly no interest in even coming close to do what they used to do. That is Yuna is so great. She is coming back with basically the same jumps as when she left!
Six Point Zero
What an interesting discussion before Worlds, and what a reversal from the last two years! With Yuna back, Mao went from her rather lackluster early season performances to attempting an 8-triple long program and Carolina included a 3Lz and 3F+3T in her long program.
Originally Posted by gmyers
Technically, this was one of the strongest Worlds ladies podium in a while, I think. The rest of the top 10 were also very strong technically. It seems 2012-2013 and 2013-2014 will save this quad from being the "worst ladies quadrennial ever."
Here is the number of triples landed by the 3 medalists in every world championship since the adoption of CoP (this includes both SP+LP):
Originally Posted by doug_log
2010: 19 (plus 2 of Asada's 3A<s)
I don't see a regression here. A little slump that's already picked up. The focus has changed from the harder 3-3s mostly because CoP does not reward it. Why go for 3Lz-3T when you can do 3Lz-2T and 2A-3T, instead? With the exception of Kim and Kostner pre-2010, hardly any lady did a 3-3 in the SP - they would all do 3Lz-2T. It took them a few years to realize a 3T-3T is worth more. It's not about the talent - it's about the math.
I also don't buy the "veternas staying on caused regression". Sure, all the top ladies retired after 2006 (OK, not Suguri) but after 1998 Kwan, Slultskaya and Butyrskaya stayed on, and after 2002 Kwan and Slutskaya, as well as Cohen and Suguri, stuck around. That hadn't hurt the technical difficulty, either.
wasn't Witt's Era the worst ?
I'm sorry, but I have to agree with the decline in this sport in ladies. I think in the junior ranks the level of jumping is excellent and what it should be in the senior ranks, but it seems when skaters move up to seniors, they rely on PCS to win competitions and rarely bring the same level of technical content. It's weird when a Junior World champion like Lipnitskaia lands 7 triples in her long, but horrible when Kostner or Ando lands 5 triples and wins Worlds. Since when is 5 triples the standard for women's skating? And since when is 3F-2X, 3L, 2A the standard of short programs?! At this point, a cleanly executed 3-3 should be as mandatory as a triple axel in men's to put yourself in the final flight at Worlds. The fact that being a veteran as soon as they step on the ice immediately gets enough PCS to overcome a less popular skater who happens to have a 3-3, regardless of how weak their jump content is, is rather deplorable. Under 6.0, a fall would automatically put you out of the top 3, and nowadays skaters with falls are still sitting in 2nd or even 1st (and with inferior jump content at that!).
Until the judges start truly rewarding technical content, there will be no progression in the technical side of the sport - which, in my opinion, makes it a sport. Liza's wins on the GP last year are nice examples of good technical content beating out skaters with expected PCS boost.
Part of me thinks that junior World Champions should be given the option to compete at Senior Worlds, regardless of age. Radionova or Lipnitskaia could easily challenge top skaters, even if their PCS is lacking. You would almost have to shame top skaters into trying harder elements by having more technically sound skaters landing 3-3 jumps compete with them. If there were 2 or 3 Yu Na Kim's around the top skaters would certainly be working to get their 3-3 back a lot harder than they are right now. Right now, the top skaters have a mentality of doing what it takes to win, instead of attempting beyond "acceptable" jump content and simply dominating, like how Plushenko or Kim have done in the past. I know it's easier said than done, but I wish female skaters were more ambitious about exceeding their predecessors instead of settling for a plateau that happens to "be enough" to win.
Oh, and while flutzing is bad technique, I still think that a jump should be -1 or 0 for a flutz, instead of -2 or -3, if it is executed well. And even with flutzing discouraging skaters from doing all 5 triple jumps, the reality is many skaters will still do a 2A instead of a 3T or 3S.
Thankfully, it seems the opposite happens in the men's where they land quads and get more consistent 3A as they move up to senior, and are fine with 3As and developing their skating/PCS as juniors.
Must you use every thread to bash Mao and Kostner. According to all your post mao is destroying iceskating because her jumps are so bad.
Originally Posted by gmyers
Last edited by Minze2001; 02-01-2013 at 12:13 PM.
All these posts just narrow down to one thing, people don't understand PCS.
In the 6.0 system, the young girls would be destroyed in the presentation mark. Most of them would be in the 5.1-5.2 max.
I think that this quadenrial is far more interesting than the 2006-2010: in 2006, all the top veterans (Michelle, Irina, Shizuka, Sasha) retired after the Olympics and the new young ones Asada, Ando, Kostner, Kim won it all (in fact, all the Ladies that won medals in 2007 at Worlds didn't have World medals before it), they were superbe skaters and they gave us magnificent programs and jumps, culminating in the beautiful last group in Vancouver; now, almost all the 2009/2010 top skaters (except Lepisto and Rochette, even if she is officially still eligible) are still competing against the new girls, and, even if the technical level is lower than in 2008-2009-2010, I think that we've seen a great improvement in the artistry and a lot of great duels for the big medals, and we'll especially see some of them now that a lot of the young girls (Liza, Adelina, Gracie, Kaetlyn) are going to compete at Worlds... I'm actually finding this four-years period far more exciting than the last one!
Newsflash, these young girls are being destroyed in the presentation mark in CoP. If anything a performance with 7 triples including two XX-3T combos should be placed ahead of any performance with just 2 or 3 triples. Generally if you can do 7 triples you theoretically are a half-decent skater. Skating skills etc. are important but the jumps and spins are what make singles figure skating interesting to watch. Try explaining to any non-skater why 2 triples beats out 7 triples... that would have NEVER happened under 6.0.
Originally Posted by FlattFan
By the same reasoning, in the 6.0 system the veterans would (and should) be destroyed in the technical mark.
People saying that "Oh, Carolina/Yu Na/Mao's PCS score should be at least 5-10 points even higher for their wonderful skating" when it's already 7-9 points higher than the rest of the field, even with mistakes, are the reason figure skating cannot be taken seriously. Honestly, how much leeway do you want to give them? Is there any point in any of the other skaters with less developed artistry even competing, when they'll have to skate lights out to even come close to competing with skaters who make mistakes?
No. Not even remotely so. What makes skating entertaining to watch is creative programs skated to the music and skaters showing the whole package.
Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy
I can't imagine anything more boring than somebody skating from jump to jump. I'd rather watch paint dry.
And in any case, it's irrelevant what is or what isn't interesting to us.
Figure skating is a sport where everything counts and not just jumps and it makes me profoundly depressed that even a lot of the skating fans seem to be unable to acknowledge that.
Developing strong basics takes as much time, work and effort as learning your jumps, if not more so because it's harder to grasp and the results are not immediate in the same way.
Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy
Performing a program which features complex choreography, a lot of upper body movement and transitions take an enormous amount of strength and stamina and makes performing the technical elements much more difficult.
I don't think that's entirely bashing... it is concerning when a skater with 3 or 4 triples (for example, Kostner or Mao) cleanly executed wins, regardless of who they are, assuming other skaters land 6 or 7.
Originally Posted by Minze2001
Mao actually pushed skating by bringing back the triple axel and with such consistency. But now she has an inconsistent lutz, no triple axel, and an inconsistent flip (this season) and is winning. No fault of hers, but the judges are the ones to blame for her being held up.
I'm sure these days you say "XXXX won Worlds with 5 triples." anyone who has even remotely seen skating competitions would respond "Um, isn't that kinda average?" And then you're like "But she had excellent footwork, speed, and transitions, and spins." and they'd be "Um, okay... but she only landed 5 triples?"
Technical elements is what makes the sport a sport in most people's eyes. There's a reason why figures and compulsory dances don't exist anymore, and a reason why ice dancing is surging in popularity compared to before the CoP system.