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Thread: Worst Ladies Quadrenial Ever?

  1. #16
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    All these posts just narrow down to one thing, people don't understand PCS.
    In the 6.0 system, the young girls would be destroyed in the presentation mark. Most of them would be in the 5.1-5.2 max.

  2. #17
    Custom Title FSGMT's Avatar
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    I think that this quadenrial is far more interesting than the 2006-2010: in 2006, all the top veterans (Michelle, Irina, Shizuka, Sasha) retired after the Olympics and the new young ones Asada, Ando, Kostner, Kim won it all (in fact, all the Ladies that won medals in 2007 at Worlds didn't have World medals before it), they were superbe skaters and they gave us magnificent programs and jumps, culminating in the beautiful last group in Vancouver; now, almost all the 2009/2010 top skaters (except Lepisto and Rochette, even if she is officially still eligible) are still competing against the new girls, and, even if the technical level is lower than in 2008-2009-2010, I think that we've seen a great improvement in the artistry and a lot of great duels for the big medals, and we'll especially see some of them now that a lot of the young girls (Liza, Adelina, Gracie, Kaetlyn) are going to compete at Worlds... I'm actually finding this four-years period far more exciting than the last one!

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    All these posts just narrow down to one thing, people don't understand PCS.
    In the 6.0 system, the young girls would be destroyed in the presentation mark. Most of them would be in the 5.1-5.2 max.
    Newsflash, these young girls are being destroyed in the presentation mark in CoP. If anything a performance with 7 triples including two XX-3T combos should be placed ahead of any performance with just 2 or 3 triples. Generally if you can do 7 triples you theoretically are a half-decent skater. Skating skills etc. are important but the jumps and spins are what make singles figure skating interesting to watch. Try explaining to any non-skater why 2 triples beats out 7 triples... that would have NEVER happened under 6.0.

    By the same reasoning, in the 6.0 system the veterans would (and should) be destroyed in the technical mark.

    People saying that "Oh, Carolina/Yu Na/Mao's PCS score should be at least 5-10 points even higher for their wonderful skating" when it's already 7-9 points higher than the rest of the field, even with mistakes, are the reason figure skating cannot be taken seriously. Honestly, how much leeway do you want to give them? Is there any point in any of the other skaters with less developed artistry even competing, when they'll have to skate lights out to even come close to competing with skaters who make mistakes?

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minze2001 View Post
    Must you use every thread to bash Mao and Kostner. According to all your post mao is destroying iceskating because her jumps are so bad.
    I don't think that's entirely bashing... it is concerning when a skater with 3 or 4 triples (for example, Kostner or Mao) cleanly executed wins, regardless of who they are, assuming other skaters land 6 or 7.

    Mao actually pushed skating by bringing back the triple axel and with such consistency. But now she has an inconsistent lutz, no triple axel, and an inconsistent flip (this season) and is winning. No fault of hers, but the judges are the ones to blame for her being held up.

    I'm sure these days you say "XXXX won Worlds with 5 triples." anyone who has even remotely seen skating competitions would respond "Um, isn't that kinda average?" And then you're like "But she had excellent footwork, speed, and transitions, and spins." and they'd be "Um, okay... but she only landed 5 triples?"

    Technical elements is what makes the sport a sport in most people's eyes. There's a reason why figures and compulsory dances don't exist anymore, and a reason why ice dancing is surging in popularity compared to before the CoP system.

  5. #20
    Custom Title Minze2001's Avatar
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    Go back to every comptition Mao has won this season and please tell me who had a better program and who landed the triples perfectly who should have won instead of her. The NHK competition maybe Susuki should have won. But the Cup of China and GP final, who had a superior program or landed 7 clean triples that should have won over Mao? The particular poster I was adressing is a Mao basher.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Skating skills etc. are important but the jumps and spins are what make singles figure skating interesting to watch.
    No. Not even remotely so. What makes skating entertaining to watch is creative programs skated to the music and skaters showing the whole package.

    I can't imagine anything more boring than somebody skating from jump to jump. I'd rather watch paint dry.

    And in any case, it's irrelevant what is or what isn't interesting to us.

    Figure skating is a sport where everything counts and not just jumps and it makes me profoundly depressed that even a lot of the skating fans seem to be unable to acknowledge that.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Technical elements is what makes the sport a sport in most people's eyes. There's a reason why figures and compulsory dances don't exist anymore, and a reason why ice dancing is surging in popularity compared to before the CoP system.
    Developing strong basics takes as much time, work and effort as learning your jumps, if not more so because it's harder to grasp and the results are not immediate in the same way.

    Performing a program which features complex choreography, a lot of upper body movement and transitions take an enormous amount of strength and stamina and makes performing the technical elements much more difficult.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minze2001 View Post
    Go back to every comptition Mao has won this season and please tell me who had a better program and who landed the triples perfectly who should have won instead of her. The NHK competition maybe Susuki should have won. But the Cup of China and GP final, who had a superior program or landed 7 clean triples that should have won over Mao? The particular poster I was adressing is a Mao basher.
    Few landed the triples perfectly but I would take flawed triples over maos underrotations and doubles. So Julia in china and Suzuki and Wagner. Mao should not have even medaled in NHk- it was an embarrassment to the sport.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Newsflash, these young girls are being destroyed in the presentation mark in CoP. If anything a performance with 7 triples including two XX-3T combos should be placed ahead of any performance with just 2 or 3 triples. Generally if you can do 7 triples you theoretically are a half-decent skater. Skating skills etc. are important but the jumps and spins are what make singles figure skating interesting to watch. Try explaining to any non-skater why 2 triples beats out 7 triples... that would have NEVER happened under 6.0.
    Then I suggest you go back to see Midori's SP and LP at the 1988 Olympics. Best technical program ever, better than Liza's best jumps Adelina's best jumps combined. Her presentation and skating skills are also leagues above these two combined. And she was behind so many people who can't even do triple flip.

  9. #24
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    I think that's personal preference. If you took out the jumps and spins from singles skating, the viewership would drastically drop. People appreciate a well performed program, but they clap at the tricks. I think if many of us went to SOI and nobody attempted any triple jumps but skated nice programs we still couldn't help but feel jipped. That being said, it would be boring to watch somebody skate from jump to jump, but it would be equally as boring to watch somebody skate an easy program when supposedly these are elite skaters.

    I agree that it takes strength, time and focus to do complex choreography and footwork. But look at what you see in the papers, look at what you see on TV... when was the last time you saw short dances on prime time?

    People are saying it's the worst quadrennial due to a slump in jumping. Many ladies are taking less risks and do what's necessary to win instead of what's necessary to wow.

    What is the point of any "lesser" elite skater even skating when they have to nail all their jumps and rely on the mistakes of top skaters (who have easier jump layouts) to have a shot of winning?

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    No. Not even remotely so. What makes skating entertaining to watch is creative programs skated to the music and skaters showing the whole package.

    I can't imagine anything more boring than somebody skating from jump to jump. I'd rather watch paint dry.

    And in any case, it's irrelevant what is or what isn't interesting to us.

    Figure skating is a sport where everything counts and not just jumps and it makes me profoundly depressed that even a lot of the skating fans seem to be unable to acknowledge that.



    Developing strong basics takes as much time, work and effort as learning your jumps, if not more so because it's harder to grasp and the results are not immediate in the same way.

    Performing a program which features complex choreography, a lot of upper body movement and transitions take an enormous amount of strength and stamina and makes performing the technical elements much more difficult.
    so this really doesn't apply to Mao with jumps this season at all. Doing all the inbetweens and choreo and not doing the jumps at all but doing the spins and steps.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    Few landed the triples perfectly but I would take flawed triples over maos underrotations and doubles. So Julia in china and Suzuki and Wagner. Mao should not have even medaled in NHk- it was an embarrassment to the sport.
    Ok go with that.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Then I suggest you go back to see Midori's SP and LP at the 1988 Olympics. Best technical program ever, better than Liza's best jumps Adelina's best jumps combined. Her presentation and skating skills are also leagues above these two combined. And she was behind so many people who can't even do triple flip.
    Actually this is supports my point. Ito was held back because of figures, placing 10th, and less than ideal SP where she placed 4th. Her SP was not the best technical program ever (2L-3L, 2F, 2A; spins not as difficult as Liza/Adelina but that's pre-CoP). The FS was one of the best ever, but she faced exactly what Tuktamysheva faced at Euros (technically way superior free but held back on artistry)... Liza had an excellent free but Carolina was given a 9-point PCS advantage.

    Honestly, a skate with 3Z-3T, 3Z, 3F, 2A-3T, 3L, 3S-2T-2L, 2A -- 7 triples -- places just 1 point higher than a skate with 3Z, 2A, 3F-2T, 3L, 3T-2T, 2A, 2S-2T-2L, 2S -- only 4 triples?!? I don't care how stellar Carolina's PCS is, that is an absolute travesty.
    Last edited by CanadianSkaterGuy; 02-01-2013 at 05:18 PM.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I think that's personal preference. If you took out the jumps and spins from singles skating, the viewership would drastically drop. People appreciate a well performed program, but they clap at the tricks. I think if many of us went to SOI and nobody attempted any triple jumps but skated nice programs we still couldn't help but feel jipped. That being said, it would be boring to watch somebody skate from jump to jump, but it would be equally as boring to watch somebody skate an easy program when supposedly these are elite skaters.
    Yes. Which is why neither the jumps alone, nor the in-betweens alone are really enough. What matters in the end, and what makes figure skating so special, is the whole package.

    But I see people very often focus on the jumps and put undue weight on them, whilst ignoring everything else (HI GMYERS). But TES and PCS is supposed to be a roughly 50/50 split.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Honestly, a skate with 3Z-3T, 3Z, 3F, 2A-3T, 3L, 3S-2T-2L, 2A -- 7 triples -- places just 1 point higher than a skate with 3Z, 2A, 3F-2T, 3L, 3T-2T, 2A, 2S-2T-2L, 2S -- only 4 triples?!? I don't care how stellar Carolina's PCS is, that is an absolute travesty.
    And you've just done exactly that. Mention the jumps but ignore the PCS. Sorry but that's not how this sport works. Everything counts. 2013 Euros was not a 'top jump' event.

    You could probably argue that Tuktamysheva was undermarked in relation to Kostner on some of the PCS but on ones like SS, PE or IN Kostner did deserve to absolutely destroy her.

    (Btw, top jump events died extremely quickly because they were so boring :P)

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    What is the point of any "lesser" elite skater even skating when they have to nail all their jumps and rely on the mistakes of top skaters (who have easier jump layouts) to have a shot of winning?
    Nobody is stopping the "lesser" skaters from improving the other aspects of their skating. Look at how Kostner skated at 2003 Euros. She was just hideous. Great jumps and nothing else. Shallow edges, hardly any connection to the music, stiff, awkward and wooden movements, generic choreography. Look at where she's at now.
    Last edited by Ziggy; 02-01-2013 at 05:41 PM.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Actually this is supports my point. Ito was held back because of figures, placing 10th, and less than ideal SP where she placed 4th. Her SP was not the best technical program ever (2L-3L, 2F, 2A; spins not as difficult as Liza/Adelina but that's pre-CoP). The FS was one of the best ever, but she faced exactly what Tuktamysheva faced at Euros (technically way superior free but held back on artistry)... Liza had an excellent free but Carolina was given a 9-point PCS advantage.

    Honestly, a skate with 3Z-3T, 3Z, 3F, 2A-3T, 3L, 3S-2T-2L, 2A -- 7 triples -- places just 1 point higher than a skate with 3Z, 2A, 3F-2T, 3L, 3T-2T, 2A, 2S-2T-2L, 2S -- only 4 triples?!? I don't care how stellar Carolina's PCS is, that is an absolute travesty.
    Actually it did not. You claimed such thing would never happened in the 6.0 system. Well, it did. A lot.
    Actually, her SP was the best TES at the Olympics then. If they force any of the current girls to the jump layout requirement in the SP in 1988, most of them would not be able to add a 3loop at the end of the combo. That made the combo much much harder.
    Everybody know that if they allow Ito to jump whatever she wants in the SP, she would blow all of the Russians out of the water. So yes, it was the best TES program ever given the constraint.

    An absolute travesty would be Liza winning Euro or Adelina winning Euro. I don't care how many triples they can jump if all they do is jump. I don't even rewatch anything by the Russians, but I rewatch Caro's programs all the time. So there you have it.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    I don't care how many triples they can jump if all they do is jump.
    Hmmmmm? Yes - IF. I completely disagree with you that that is ALL they do. I don't think I'm completely alone in this view either.

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