Worst Ladies Quadrenial Ever?

[gmyers]

Yes. Which is why neither the jumps alone, nor the in-betweens alone are really enough. What matters in the end, and what makes figure skating so special, is the whole package.

But I see people very often focus on the jumps and put undue weight on them, whilst ignoring everything else (HI GMYERS). But TES and PCS is supposed to be a roughly 50/50 split.



And you've just done exactly that. Mention the jumps but ignore the PCS. Sorry but that's not how this sport works. Everything counts. 2013 Euros was not a 'top jump' event.

You could probably argue that Tuktamysheva was undermarked in relation to Kostner on some of the PCS but on ones like SS, PE or IN Kostner did deserve to absolutely destroy her.

(Btw, top jump events died extremely quickly because they were so boring :P)



Nobody is stopping the "lesser" skaters from improving the other aspects of their skating. Look at how Kostner skated at 2003 Euros. She was just hideous. Great jumps and nothing else. Shallow edges, hardly any connection to the music, stiff, awkward and wooden movements, generic choreography. Look at where she's at now.

Look where kostner is now! 4 triples! That's all she did in her free skate! It is a grotesque thing to watch and barely got through it because the whole thing is a big why even bother watching some skater do 4 triples.

[ImaginaryPogue]

I think, in order to satisfy people, we should institute the following rule.

1) For every triple jump you land, you get a gold medal (no edge calls, URs allowed)
2) For every three PCS categories you win, you get a gold medal.
3) For every level four spin and level four footwork you achieve, you get a gold medal.

This means that jumps would outrank everything else (in ladies, there would be 12 possible gold medals (3-3, solo triple, triple axel in the short; eight triple long) handed out for jumps vs 11 handed out (we'd get rid of transitions in one of the skates, just because, so 4 PCS categories twice, 1 once = 3 gold medals; three spins in the short, three in the long (six more), two footwork sequences (2)). We could expand the technical panel to be more diligent with levels and edge calls/URs.) The championship podium would be decided ranking the number of gold medals, with the triple jumps being the tiebreaker

Using this method

Carolina Kostner gets 10 gold medals.
Elizaveta Tuktamisheva gets 13 gold medals
Adelina Sotnikova gets 15 gold medals and the championship title.

CanadianSkaterGuy, why is it that the lesser elite skaters have awesome jumps, but mediocre skating skills, choreography, interpretation, spins, footwork, performance and transitions and why should that be only a secondary consideration when deciding who's the best?

[FlattFan]

Hmmmmm? Yes - IF. I completely disagree with you that that is ALL they do. I don't think I'm completely alone in this view either.

I forgot to add, one moved her body to some growling noise by a wild beast. In addition to the jumps. I was not giving her all the credit she deserved.

[LRK]

I forgot to add, one moved her body to some growling noise by a wild beast. In addition to the jumps. I was not giving her all the credit she deserved.

Tsk, tsk, tsk! Poor Christina Aguilera...

[Krislite]

Tsk, tsk, tsk! Poor Christina Aguilera...

I hate the growling, too. Christina oversings everything. If Adelina had just left out the screaming portion of her LP music the judges would have likely given her the Euro title.

[LRK]

I hate the growling, too. Christina oversings everything. If Adelina had just left out the screaming portion of her LP music the judges would have likely given her the Euro title.

Probably! Maybe someone should write her team and suggest removing it might improve her chances? Cannot do any harm, and anything is worth trying in pursuit of such a worthy goal, don't you think?

Actually, I wonder who DOES like it? I cannot recall seeing a single person saying they did... ? Maybe that's the plan! - To unite the diverse skating community around a common cause.

[ivy]

Maybe it's rose colored glasses, but no one skating now seems as good as Michelle, Irina, Maria B, Lu Chen, Sasha, Shizuka etc. Sarah Hughes drove me crazy, but I'd be routing for her now too. I could go on with other retired skaters I enjoy over the current batch.

The last quad had its problem too, but YuNa and Mao were at the top their games and Joannie added something for me too.

Mao, Caroline and Ashley disappoint me on both the tech and presentation side these days, so it's not just about the lack of jumps. No one seems 'complete'. YuNa has the goods, but she's been absent for a couple years. The next batch seems promising but they're still not there yet. On to 2015-2018!!

[anthologyz]

i'd venture to say 1977-80 was fairly dull with world titles being swapped between two mediocre skaters, fratianne vs. pötzsch, and watanabe and allen being vastly undermarked. but yes, i'm a bit cool in my reception of the past two years. i hope worlds will turn up the heat again.

[FSGMT]

Please, don't turn this thread into ANOTHER jumps vs PCS (young girls vs Kostner/Mao) discussion!

[bekalc]

I'm going to take the middle ground and say I don't know how anyone could call Kostner's skate at Europeans grotesque to watch, that was a gorgeous skate! And I think she deserves the lead she gets over Tukt in PCS... I mean what about the speed Kostner goes into her elements vs Tukt's...

However, Ziggy I am going to argue that jumps aren't rewarded enough. So many ladies now aren't even going for the 3lutz in the short anymore. And under 6.0 you had ladies going for 3/3/3 but nobody really tries it now because its not rewarded in the system... (Yes Radionova but its really not rewarded)

I'd like to see triples worth a little more especially the harder ones, especially since PCS can be subjective. Look at Mao's win over Akiko's at yes NHK)... I'd also like to see harder combos rewarded. I think it would be good for the sport. But then I'd yes continue letting Kostner getting the PCS lead she gets.

[drivingmissdaisy]

I hate the growling, too. Christina oversings everything. If Adelina had just left out the screaming portion of her LP music the judges would have likely given her the Euro title.

I'm a huge Adelina fan, and if I was judging I'd have given her the Euro title, but in a way I'm glad she got penalized for her terrible music. She deserves a LP so much better than that and I hope she learns a lesson and comes back next season with an Olympic-medal worthy program.

[pangtongfan]

i'd venture to say 1977-80 was fairly dull with world titles being swapped between two mediocre skaters, fratianne vs. pötzsch, and watanabe and allen being vastly undermarked. but yes, i'm a bit cool in my reception of the past two years. i hope worlds will turn up the heat again.

The weakest eras ever in ladies skating were 1977-1982 and 1997-2006. 2011-2012 would join those but thankfully was a much shorter period than either of those.

[machin]

Technical elements is what makes the sport a sport in most people's eyes. There's a reason why figures and compulsory dances don't exist anymore, and a reason why ice dancing is surging in popularity compared to before the CoP system.

This is totally wrong. I guess that's why the crowd at 2012 worlds in Nice was more than half empty (2000 persons, the worst attendance of the whole week for LPs) for dance and fully packed for ladies & men !
Ice dancing used to draw the most audiences all around the world under 6.0. Now it's only true for NA (guess why !).
Every team was interesting in their own way, the programs were very different and there was actually an interpretation even though the technical part wasn't as in your face and I agree the standart was less high (and even there, it depend what you're looking for, CDs quality has dropped dramatically since COP was introduced, no wonder why DomSha had easy time winning it in Vancouver).
Now we just have boring elements one after another, people doesn't have time left for interpretation (BroSoloviev and Weaver Poje FD from this season are great exemple of this : interpretation is only there the first and last 5 seconds of the FD, you can't know what was the idea behind those dance if you didn't learn it before seeing it ; not to mention D/W FD and V/M FD which could be skated to any just a bit dramatic piece, no story, no characters, nothing on the artistic side as it used to be seen) and just skate year after years the same routine with different music background (Belbin Agosto anyone ? Or Khokhlova Novitski). Even Pechalat Bourzat whom showed great promise on the artistic side at first sold themselves after 2008 to get more consistency. Now artistic mark is just another technical mark and judges can easily use it as they like to put who they want at the top.
Ice Dancing has no soul anymore. It's just the most boring event.

As for Ladies under this quad, I wonder why everybody wants to see baby girl jumping everywhere with no flow & basics and / or choreo (Gold and Tuktamisheva are great exemple of this). The final flight at Moscou worlds was a pure delight to watch and on a totally different level than was I've seen for years skating wise. Except the winner obviously. Even the russian (forgot her name) had a very good LP (Volozhinskaya, a huge thanks ! It shows what real choreographer are unlike Morozov) despite her less than stellar basics.

[FlattFan]

D&W's FD last year would win World every single year since the inception of Ice Dancing.

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I think, in order to satisfy people, we should institute the following rule.

1) For every triple jump you land, you get a gold medal (no edge calls, URs allowed)
2) For every three PCS categories you win, you get a gold medal.
3) For every level four spin and level four footwork you achieve, you get a gold medal.

This means that jumps would outrank everything else (in ladies, there would be 12 possible gold medals (3-3, solo triple, triple axel in the short; eight triple long) handed out for jumps vs 11 handed out (we'd get rid of transitions in one of the skates, just because, so 4 PCS categories twice, 1 once = 3 gold medals; three spins in the short, three in the long (six more), two footwork sequences (2)). We could expand the technical panel to be more diligent with levels and edge calls/URs.) The championship podium would be decided ranking the number of gold medals, with the triple jumps being the tiebreaker

Using this method

Carolina Kostner gets 10 gold medals.
Elizaveta Tuktamisheva gets 13 gold medals
Adelina Sotnikova gets 15 gold medals and the championship title.

CanadianSkaterGuy, why is it that the lesser elite skaters have awesome jumps, but mediocre skating skills, choreography, interpretation, spins, footwork, performance and transitions and why should that be only a secondary consideration when deciding who's the best?

I think because skaters sometimes haven't 'matured'. It's ridiculous... no matter how 'developed' a skater is in the junior ranks, they will always be given double digit PCS hit against top skaters when they move up. And top skaters don't necessarily improve, they've just been on the scene longer so their PCS gradually increases year after year, and they rely on this advantage. As a result of this advantage, veterans don't risk harder jumps and have secondary jump layouts. Also, lesser elite skaters usually have better spins and sometimes have even harder footwork than top skaters.

You're telling me that Carolina or Mao or Yu Na should be able to go out there and do only 2 or 3 triple jumps and still place in the top 10 at Worlds? Because with their PCS boost, they probably could.

In a competition, I don't care how well a top skater (or any skater for that matter) "performs" or "interprets" if they don't land the jumps. Save that for the exhibitions. It's hard to defend our sport against shifty judging and whatnot when 3 and 4 triple performances will still outperform 6 and 7 triple performances.