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Thread: Worst Ladies Quadrenial Ever?

  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    Fair enough. I guess to me, the outstanding skating displayed by the topmost skaters (even if there were only 2) counts for a lot and elevates the entire period. Look at this way--in some ways the 1998-2002 Olympic cycle for men was a really poor cycle. Outside of Yags and Plush, there were the aging Stojko and Eldredge, wildly inconsistent Abt, Goebel who could only jump, and journeymen like Li and Weiss. But so many people cite 1998-2002 as a strong period for the men because the skating of the top 2 was so high in quality and so exciting.

    How would you rank the men BTW?
    Upon hearing your suggestions I think I would rerank the ladies quads as:

    1. 1989-1992.
    2. 2007-2010.
    2. 1981-1984.
    4. 2011-2014.
    5. 1985-1988.
    6. 1993-1994
    7. 1995-1998
    8. 1999-2002
    9. 2003-2006
    10. 1977-1980

    Although the main point still stands, 2011-2014 is far from the worst, and 1977-1980 is by far the worst of the last 40 years and way worse than the current one.


    For the men, I am not sure. Perhaps something like this:

    1. 1995-1998. Stojko, Urmanov, Eldredge, Kulik all at their peaks. Zagorodnuik, young Yagudin, Candelero, as major contenders as well, and also dark horses like Galindo, Millot, Scott Davis.

    2. 1973-1976. Two of the most artistic and revolutionary skaters ever in Cranston and Curry, along with the very strong technical and figures skaters like Hoffmann, Kovalev, and Volkov, and some pretty good American skaters too.

    3. 1977-1980. Hoffmann, Cousins, Tickner, all at their best and mostly figures specialist Kovalev. Also strong skaters like Santee, young Scott Hamilton, Scott Kramer, Brian Pockar, that amazing Japanese skater who blew everyone away with his free skating at the 77 Worlds but then dissapeared.

    4. 1989-1992. Browning and Petrenko ruled this quad but you have a very strong U.S contingent with Eldredge, Bowman, Wylie, and Mitchell, the stylish Petr Barna who could do a quad as well, Filipowski, youngsters who came on strong like Urmanov, Stojko, and Zagorodniuk.

    5. 1999-2002. Yagudin and Plushenko were mostly the highlights of the quad. However at times there was some great skating from Goebel, Weiss, Honda, and even Abt. An old Stojko hung in and was one of the leaders of the first half of the quad.

    6. 1985-1988. This quad was all about the two Brians, and to a lesser degree strong Soviet skater Fadeev who was very inconsistent in free skating. Other strong skaters this quad at times were Savocik, Kotin, figures specialist Fischer, young Bowman and Browning, and Filipowski.

    7. 2003-2006. An erratic quad of skating at time but still reasonably strong all the same. Plushenko at his best still, Joubert in his peak years from 2004-2007, Lambiel at his peak at the end of the quad. Goebel and Honda starting the quad strong as major forces, Weir at his peak from 2004-2006, and Lysacek emerging as a force.

    8. 1993-1994. From this point forward is where the weak quads start. Not even a real quad as it was half a quad, but Stojko was the overall highlight of this quad. Browning at the 93 Worlds was great in winning but already technically on decline, which would acclerate in 94. Urmanov at the 94 Games and 93 Worlds was very good, but not consistent in his performances. Candelero emerged as a big force, Millot and Zagorodniuk also emerged as contenders. Petrenko's comeback was strong until the short program at the Games which likely prevented him from defending his 92 Gold. Boitano's comeback was less than stellar but brought interest nonetheless.

    9. 1981-1984. Overall a pretty weak quad that culminated in Hamilton winning Olympic Gold with sluggish short and long program skates due to a big lead in figures on Orser and the general weakness of the rest of the field. Other than Hamilton, a young Orser who really only emerged in 83 as a force, and the quirky but not technically sound Schramm there wasnt much to note about this quad.

    10. 2007-2010. Quad started decently with strong skating by Joubert, Takahashi, and at times Lambiel and Buttle, and then gradually melted away into a virtual nothing, culminating with a giant thud that culminated in a quadless Lysacek as World, Grand Prix final, and Olympic Champion.

    11. 2011-2014. What more needs to be said that hasnt already been really.

  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    You're still ignoring context. I'm going to ask this question again: why don't you think that anyone is complaining that Chan soundly beat Max Aaron? Or maybe, why don't you think anyone is complaining that Chan soundly beat Mura? Or the fact that Chan crushed Rogozine?
    Aaron made errors too and didn't skate to his full potential. He only slightly outscored Chan technically in the FS, even with Chan's errors, and Chan's a better skater than Aaron. As with Lambiel/KVDP, I don't disagree that Lambiel should have been ahead of KVDP, but I disagree with anyone saying KVDP didn't outskate Lambiel that night... and even though most would say Aaron shouldn't be placed above Chan, he certainly outskated him tonight. Go back to what I bolded "skated better than him" I deliberately didn't bold "well enough to beat him". Lambiel/Buttle/Chan were outskated by KVDP/Ten/Aaron. But since the formers are better overall skaters then people (and the judges) justify still placing them ahead. Doesn't change the fact that others skated better than them. And by skated better, I mean a performance with less flaws. (Obviously by the general thought of "skated better" Lambiel can have 8 falls, but will always "skate better" than KVDP.) And in the case of Buttle, yes, I do feel that KVDP should have been higher than him in the segment, given Buttle's flaws and KVDP's superior jump content.

    Eventually you have to ask yourself how many mistakes is a top tier skater allowed to make before it's 'suitable' for a clean, less-polished skater to be placed above them? Otherwise what's the point of the latter even competing against them!

    Which brings me back to Aaron, who IMO should have gotten higher marks and beaten Daisuke who he clearly outperformed in both segments of the competition. Obviously Daisuke is light years ahead of Max as a skater, but it's pretty unfair that Max should skate so consistently well in both segments, and Daisuke to be so technically poor and still place behind him. Screw ability... if you make errors, you shouldn't be placing so high... and I say this as a fan of Daisuke's (and a fan of Buttle's/Lambiel's, at that).

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Aaron made errors too and didn't skate to his full potential. He only slightly outscored Chan technically in the FS, even with Chan's errors, and Chan's a better skater than Aaron. As with Lambiel/KVDP, I don't disagree that Lambiel should have been ahead of KVDP, but I disagree with anyone saying KVDP didn't outskate Lambiel that night... and even though most would say Aaron shouldn't be placed above Chan, he certainly outskated him tonight. Go back to what I bolded "skated better than him" I deliberately didn't bold "well enough to beat him". Lambiel/Buttle/Chan were outskated by KVDP/Ten/Aaron. But since the formers are better overall skaters then people (and the judges) justify still placing them ahead. Doesn't change the fact that others skated better than them. And by skated better, I mean a performance with less flaws. (Obviously by the general thought of "skated better" Lambiel can have 8 falls, but will always "skate better" than KVDP.) And in the case of Buttle, yes, I do feel that KVDP should have been higher than him in the segment, given Buttle's flaws and KVDP's superior jump content.

    Eventually you have to ask yourself how many mistakes is a top tier skater allowed to make before it's 'suitable' for a clean, less-polished skater to be placed above them? Otherwise what's the point of the latter even competing against them!

    Which brings me back to Aaron, who IMO should have gotten higher marks and beaten Daisuke who he clearly outperformed in both segments of the competition. Obviously Daisuke is light years ahead of Max as a skater, but it's pretty unfair that Max should skate so consistently well in both segments, and Daisuke to be so technically poor and still place behind him. Screw ability... if you make errors, you shouldn't be placing so high... and I say this as a fan of Daisuke's (and a fan of Buttle's/Lambiel's, at that).
    I have no idea what you're trying to say about KVDP. My post was addressing the fact that you keep decrying the double standard and outrage directed at the Chan-Ten situation and using 2005 Worlds as a counterpoint.

    Moreover, I honestly have no idea how you could think that Aaron should have beaten Takahashi overall and defend Chan's win overall over Ten at the same time. Isn't it "pretty unfair" that Ten should skate so consistently well in both segments, and Chan to be so technically poor in the LP and still place ahead of Ten overall?

    Shouldn't your words "screw ability...if you make errors, you shouldn't be placing so high" apply to Chan as well as Takahashi?

  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    I have no idea what you're trying to say about KVDP. My post was addressing the fact that you keep decrying the double standard and outrage directed at the Chan-Ten situation and using 2005 Worlds as a counterpoint.

    Moreover, I honestly have no idea how you could think that Aaron should have beaten Takahashi overall and defend Chan's win overall over Ten at the same time. Isn't it "pretty unfair" that Ten should skate so consistently well in both segments, and Chan to be so technically poor in the LP and still place ahead of Ten overall?

    Shouldn't your words "screw ability...if you make errors, you shouldn't be placing so high" apply to Chan as well as Takahashi?
    I haven't defended Chan's win over Ten! I have never defended Chan's win over Ten, and have said that I think Ten should have won 2013 Worlds given he was much more consistent and clean over both segments, even if he's an inferior skater to Chan. And I've also agreed that some of Chan's wins in the past were undeserved (particularly Skate Canada 2010 and 2011).

    My point is that if you're a pretty decent skater who goes clean or skates much better than a top tier skater who makes mistakes, you should either place ahead of them in the case of Ten over Chan, and IMO Aaron over Takahashi... or in the case of KVDP, you shouldn't be so grossly behind them. As I said before, how many errors can a top tier skater (with superior general skating) make before it's considered 'suitable' for a 'lesser' skater to be placed ahead of them?

  5. #140
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    That's inconsistent with other posts you've made - you HAVE been defending Chan's win quite vigorously or else your writing style is quite unclear.

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    That's inconsistent with other posts you've made - you HAVE been defending Chan's win quite vigorously or else your writing style is quite unclear.
    Examples? I have defended Chan as a skater, and I've said that I can understand why Chan won over Ten... but I've never said Ten didn't deserve to win over Chan. The opposite, in fact.

    Maybe it's unclear because people seem to think that because I'm Canadian I'll defend any of Chan's wins, or because I acknowledge he's a great skater in spite of his errors I'm suggesting that he should always win. In fact, I'm the opposite. I was outraged when the Germans and Kostner placed higher than others who went clean, as I was when Chan was placed ahead of Ten. But once I looked at the protocols and saw that Ten won the FS handily and given that I agree with the point gap between Chan & Ten from the SP (for which Ten was unable to overcome in the FS), I understood why Chan won. But as an observer taking it all in as a whole, it's hard to dispute that Ten should have won.

  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    Shouldn't your words "screw ability...if you make errors, you shouldn't be placing so high" apply to Chan as well as Takahashi?
    There are so many inconsistencies and uneven standards and logic in his arguments it is hard to take anything he says seriously anymore. It seems most are already onto his tricks.

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    There are so many inconsistencies and uneven standards and logic in his arguments it is hard to take anything he says seriously anymore. It seems most are already onto his tricks.
    Like saying things about 5 falls for Chan and incorrectly saying he completed just 3 of 8 jumping passes in his Worlds FS? You spew the worst generalizations about Chan and they aren't even accurate!

    How are my standards uneven? You will bash Chan and make sweeping, scathing, and absurdly false generalizations no matter how great or poorly he skates. I'm obviously somebody who will laud Chan for good efforts and good skating, and criticise him for errors, while acknowledging when others should place ahead of him. At least I look at the whole picture and consider the rest of the field, too. You just see that he makes errors and immediately say his wins should be discredited. Not that bashing skaters just for the hell of it isn't already typical of you, lol.

    Hey, Mr. Inconsistencies... still waiting on you to provide which 8 of his 14 titles should be disputed by CoP standards, also bearing in mind how others competed in those competitions?

  9. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post

    Although the main point still stands, 2011-2014 is far from the worst, and 1977-1980 is by far the worst of the last 40 years and way worse than the current one.
    I definitely agree with you on these main points.

    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    For the men, I am not sure. Perhaps something like this:

    1. 1995-1998. Stojko, Urmanov, Eldredge, Kulik all at their peaks. Zagorodnuik, young Yagudin, Candelero, as major contenders as well, and also dark horses like Galindo, Millot, Scott Davis.

    2. 1973-1976. Two of the most artistic and revolutionary skaters ever in Cranston and Curry, along with the very strong technical and figures skaters like Hoffmann, Kovalev, and Volkov, and some pretty good American skaters too.

    3. 1977-1980. Hoffmann, Cousins, Tickner, all at their best and mostly figures specialist Kovalev. Also strong skaters like Santee, young Scott Hamilton, Scott Kramer, Brian Pockar, that amazing Japanese skater who blew everyone away with his free skating at the 77 Worlds but then dissapeared.

    4. 1989-1992. Browning and Petrenko ruled this quad but you have a very strong U.S contingent with Eldredge, Bowman, Wylie, and Mitchell, the stylish Petr Barna who could do a quad as well, Filipowski, youngsters who came on strong like Urmanov, Stojko, and Zagorodniuk.

    5. 1999-2002. Yagudin and Plushenko were mostly the highlights of the quad. However at times there was some great skating from Goebel, Weiss, Honda, and even Abt. An old Stojko hung in and was one of the leaders of the first half of the quad.

    6. 1985-1988. This quad was all about the two Brians, and to a lesser degree strong Soviet skater Fadeev who was very inconsistent in free skating. Other strong skaters this quad at times were Savocik, Kotin, figures specialist Fischer, young Bowman and Browning, and Filipowski.

    7. 2003-2006. An erratic quad of skating at time but still reasonably strong all the same. Plushenko at his best still, Joubert in his peak years from 2004-2007, Lambiel at his peak at the end of the quad. Goebel and Honda starting the quad strong as major forces, Weir at his peak from 2004-2006, and Lysacek emerging as a force.

    8. 1993-1994. From this point forward is where the weak quads start. Not even a real quad as it was half a quad, but Stojko was the overall highlight of this quad. Browning at the 93 Worlds was great in winning but already technically on decline, which would acclerate in 94. Urmanov at the 94 Games and 93 Worlds was very good, but not consistent in his performances. Candelero emerged as a big force, Millot and Zagorodniuk also emerged as contenders. Petrenko's comeback was strong until the short program at the Games which likely prevented him from defending his 92 Gold. Boitano's comeback was less than stellar but brought interest nonetheless.

    9. 1981-1984. Overall a pretty weak quad that culminated in Hamilton winning Olympic Gold with sluggish short and long program skates due to a big lead in figures on Orser and the general weakness of the rest of the field. Other than Hamilton, a young Orser who really only emerged in 83 as a force, and the quirky but not technically sound Schramm there wasnt much to note about this quad.

    10. 2007-2010. Quad started decently with strong skating by Joubert, Takahashi, and at times Lambiel and Buttle, and then gradually melted away into a virtual nothing, culminating with a giant thud that culminated in a quadless Lysacek as World, Grand Prix final, and Olympic Champion.

    11. 2011-2014. What more needs to be said that hasnt already been really.
    Interesting points! I agree to a certain extent but:

    Although I do agree that Lysacek being World, GPF and Olympic champion was pretty much a depressing state of affairs, I would actually rank the period of 2007-2010 higher than your high point, 1995-1998. Yes, the men were largely inconsistent during 2007-2010 with four different world champions in four years and some spectacular meltdowns here and there but a lot of the skaters and skating were so memorable and of great quality! Takahashi's Cyber Swan at 2008 4CC, La Strada at 2010 Worlds, Lambiel's Poeta at 2007 Worlds, Buttle's amazing performances at 2008 Worlds, even Verner for certain periods of time like his 2008 Worlds SP, Abbott at the 2008 GPF....plus, there were some very young and promising up-and-coming skaters like Kozuka, Chan, Amodio, etc during this period.

    Whereas 1995-1998 was pretty bleak most of the time for me. Kulik was pretty much a hot mess until 1997-1998, Stojko and his hunchy scratchy skating kept winning things, Candeloro was entertaining but wildly inconsistent and technically atrocious, young Yagudin was immature and awkward to watch, Urmanov was inconsistent and unexpectedly forced out by an injury....I'll give you Galindo, Millot and Davis but they never really were contenders, except Galindo in the early part of the period. Plus this era had such boring programs with choreography that was basically punted aside in favor of landing the quad, simplistic and boring footwork, poor spins as well as some rather poorly skated last-one-standing events as well (e.g. 1997 Worlds LP, 1998 Worlds, etc).

    I'm also not sure if I would agree that 2011-2014 is the worst quadrennial as well...

  10. #145
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    Also it's no surprise that you think this is the worst quadrennial ever, since you have it in for Chan. Let's be honest. If Takahashi and Ten won the past two Worlds -- heck, anyone other than Chan -- you'd totally say men's skating was coming along fine. The moment Chan steps on the ice, you want him to lose.

    I'm curious as to what your reaction was to him winning 2011 Worlds and if you would actually admit that he gave amazing performances and deserved to win... although I'd imagine your head just might explode if you ever paid the guy a compliment. I anticipate you'll be like "well, he stepped out of his 3A in his FS and his skating is boring... but other than that he was alright."

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    I'm also not sure if I would agree that 2011-2014 is the worst quadrennial as well...
    I think 2007-2010 was a pretty awful quadrennial as guys were getting used to CoP and shying away from quads and technically pushing themselves. Once skaters like Chan and Takahashi started landing quads consistently after the 2010 Olympics, the quad became a standard again. You would get men attempting it in the SP as a mandatory and attempting at least one (two or three if you want to push for a win) in the FS. You only have to look at the 2011 FS to see that immediately the standard of men increased.


    In comparison, the ladies are having a really bad quadrennial. From a technical standpoint you get winners like Ando and Kostner winning Worlds with 5 triples. Skaters winning SPs without a 3F or 3Z. Kim was the first time we had a truly competitive showing at Worlds. Skaters like Tuktamysheva and Sotnikova who were expected to push the technical envelope have iffier consistency now. Mao also reworked her skating and jumps... and is a better skater now, but has only just regained her 3A to some level of confidence. Her 3-3's are no more though. I'm hoping Kim's resurgence will turn the tide before Sochi, and the ladies are like "Okay, I need to bring out the big guns if I'm going to beat Kim." It was a very good thing that Kostner or Asada didn't win Worlds as I'd anticipate just a run of the mill Sochi, but in fact, Kim's win is hopefully the catalyst for a more competitive Olympics and hopefully salvages a pretty weak quadrennial.

  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I think 2007-2010 was a pretty awful quadrennial as guys were getting used to CoP and shying away from quads and technically pushing themselves. Once skaters like Chan and Takahashi started landing quads consistently after the 2010 Olympics, the quad became a standard again. You would get men attempting it in the SP as a mandatory and attempting at least one (two or three if you want to push for a win) in the FS. You only have to look at the 2011 FS to see that immediately the standard of men increased.


    In comparison, the ladies are having a really bad quadrennial. From a technical standpoint you get winners like Ando and Kostner winning Worlds with 5 triples. Skaters winning SPs without a 3F or 3Z. Kim was the first time we had a truly competitive showing at Worlds. Skaters like Tuktamysheva and Sotnikova who were expected to push the technical envelope have iffier consistency now. Mao also reworked her skating and jumps... and is a better skater now, but has only just regained her 3A to some level of confidence. Her 3-3's are no more though. I'm hoping Kim's resurgence will turn the tide before Sochi, and the ladies are like "Okay, I need to bring out the big guns if I'm going to beat Kim." It was a very good thing that Kostner or Asada didn't win Worlds as I'd anticipate just a run of the mill Sochi, but in fact, Kim's win is hopefully the catalyst for a more competitive Olympics and hopefully salvages a pretty weak quadrennial.
    The men were used to CoP, it had already been in place for a few years. Actually the reason why some men stopped doing quads was because they understood CoP and knew how to work the system to their advantage without the huge risk of the quad. Buttle, who arguably inaugurated the era of quadless winners during the period with his win in 2008, was a CoP master and knew how to wring out every last point from the system without a quad. But even so, a lot of the men during this period were going for the quad in their programs--Takahashi, Lambiel, Joubert, Verner, Plushenko, Abbott...

    Anyway I also choose to look at the overall skating quality outside of the jumps in evaluating the quadrennials. I don't think a period should necessarily be condemned as weak just because some winners didn't land quads when the quality of skating skills, choreography, footwork, etc., went up noticeably for many skaters compared to the previous quadrennial.


    I also disagree with what you're saying about the current quadrennial. It had been weak but this season has changed everything dramatically such that it's difficult to deem the entire period weak as a result.

  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    The men were used to CoP, it had already been in place for a few years. Actually the reason why some men stopped doing quads was because they understood CoP and knew how to work the system to their advantage without the huge risk of the quad. Buttle, who arguably inaugurated the era of quadless winners during the period with his win in 2008, was a CoP master and knew how to wring out every last point from the system without a quad. But even so, a lot of the men during this period were going for the quad in their programs--Takahashi, Lambiel, Joubert, Verner, Plushenko, Abbott...

    Anyway I choose to look at the overall skating quality outside of the jumps in evaluation of the quadrennials. I don't think a period should necessarily be condemned weak just because some winners didn't land quads when the quality of skating skills, choreography, footwork, etc., went up noticeably for many skaters compared to the previous quadrennial.

    I also disagree with what you're saying about the current quadrennial. It had been weak but this season has changed everything dramatically such that it's difficult to deem the entire period weak as a result.
    But wouldn't you say the overall skating quality is higher for this quadrennial compared to previous ones? I know that in the 2007-2010 quadrennial men were getting used to CoP, but they were also used to the idea that you don't need the jumps to have success. Quadless winners like Buttle, as you said, were very good at maximizing the system. But in the current quadrennial, a Buttle-like skater would still need the quad to be competitive. Buttle would not have done well in this quadrennial which is a testament to how much more competitive it is in this quadrennial. That's why I was really skeptical of a comeback by Lysacek. Plushenko would even have a hard time as the men are now much more consistent. Even with amazing 2010 Olympic performances, many of the guys now - at their best or close to it - would defeat him.

    I think the skating quality is getting progressively better, especially in the junior ranks. More attention is being emphasized on basics and intricacy in choreography and harder spins.

    If your last sentence is refering to the current ladies quadrennial I'd have to disagree. Other than Kim, Kostner and Asada and others are struggling to get clean skates. I will say that the quality of their skating is better and Kostner and Asada's actual skating is better than I've ever seen.

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