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Thread: Worst Ladies Quadrenial Ever?

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Well by your logic the mens field must be the worst in history by an enormous margin considering Chan can do a free program with about 3 clean jumps (out of 8) and still win any event he enters if he does a clean short. Womens skating is not known for all the top skaters skating cleanly, never has been. I could go over all the last 40 years and prove that easily. You are expecting something unrealistic.
    It was one of the worst men's fields in the past quadrennial, and not JUST due to Chan's (freeskate) performance. All of the men save for Ten had multiple errors in their SP and FS combined. Hanyu/Fernandez/Chan/Takahashi all underwhelmed. The number of cleanly rotated and landed quads was down from previous years in this quadrennial.

    Also, FYI, Chan landed the 4T-3T, 4T, 3F, 3L, 2A cleanly, which is more than three clean jumps (4 out of 8 clean jumping passes)... but I forgot that you can't seem to count when it comes to errors Chan makes and he does 20 errors a competition as far as you're concerned, and you seem to conveniently disregard the fact that almost everyone else made errors too.

    And what do you mean women's skating has never had all the top skaters skating cleanly? Yeah, of course, it's rare for all skaters to skate cleanly, but if you talk about relatively clean, there were plenty of clean performances (with 7 triples at that) in the 90s and the 2010 Olympics saw several clean performances, particularly in the short program. Now that women can win without 6 or 7 triple performances, you don't see many of those, plus you'll obviously get more URs in ladies and those were never checked in the past.

  2. #92
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    The mens field from 2009 (maybe 2008) to date is bar none the worst in the last 30 years possibly, maybe in history. Not just the event at Worlds. The fact a skater like Evan Lysacek can win Worlds, Grand Prix final, and Olympics all in a row (without a quad to boot, it would be one thing if a guy who was actually great at something won without a jump that had been a must for medalists for a a dozen years by then, but Evan, LOL!!!), and that Chan since then can win practically every event even with 4 or more major errors at many of them (I will be more than happy to make a list), even taking into account possible poor judging (which certainly is true in favor of Chan, and to a lesser degree was true in favor of Evan) reflects a historically abysmal field to a level lower than ever seen before. In the context of that it is silly to be discussing a supposably weak womens field, when the mens field of the last 5 year makes the womens field look like skating version of royalty.

    Putting the pitiful mens event of the last 5 years aside though, the current womens field boasts possibly the greatest female skater ever (Kim), a multi World Champion and Olympic medalist (Asada), a many time European Champion and World medalist and recent World Champion (Kostner), and a two time World Champion taking a break now but still not officaly retired (Asada). All skaters besides perhaps Ando at or near the the peak of their careers. It also has a slew of likely future World medalists/Champions who are already very good today- Gold, Osmond, Murakami, Li, Sotnikova, Tuktamysheva. Hardly sounds like a weak field to me. If you want to see a weak womens field or the worst ever quadrennial look at the 77-80 where Poetzsch and Fratianne were by far the 2 dominant skaters. Puke city, the only womens field so weak it could compare to the current mens field.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Most of that is ridiculously skewed. Also missing is how a lot of those "technically lacking" performances in the past had exquisite artistry. Lu Chen's 5-Triple performance from 1995 Worlds blows away Kostner's from 2012 Worlds, for example.
    What?
    Here's Chen Lu LP in 1995
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzUzMOdtqNg

    Here's Kostner LP in 2012
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOf6-8lT9t0

    Lutz. Chen's lutz is barely rotated. But sure, let her have it.
    Flip. Kostner's flip >>> Chen's.
    Loop. Kostner's loop >>> Chen's barely rotated loop.
    Salchow. Kostner's >> Chen's
    Toe. Kostner's 2A-3T made it harder.

    Skating skills, Kostner is so superior. Chen Lu did so many cross overs to gain speed. It was just not in the same league at all.

    Program, I like Chen Lu program a bit more, but Kostner's program is pure figure skating.

    Technically, Kostner should blow Chen Lu out of the water with her 2012.
    Artistically, Chen is fun to watch, but Kostner is figure skating. No judges would put Chen above Kostner. Don't get it twisted.

  4. #94
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    Comparing Chen and Kostner is hard as one is clearly a 6.0 skater trained for 6.0 who would translate poorly to COP (Chen) and another is mostly a COP skater (although would translate pretty well to 6.0 too).

    Under COP Kostner from the 2012 Worlds beats Chen from the 95 Worlds very easily. Under 6.0 it would be closer, and maybe with Chen coming out ahead as the judges under 6.0 valued cleanliness very highly, even though both did 5 triples and had beautiful programs, and even though Kostner has alot more spins, better spins, bigger jumps, etc..

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Under 6.0 it would be closer, and maybe with Chen coming out ahead as the judges under 6.0 valued cleanliness very highly, even though both did 5 triples and had beautiful programs, and even though Kostner has alot more spins, better spins, bigger jumps, etc..
    Even though Kostner had more spins, better spins, bigger jumps, did 5 clean triples, Chen would come out ahead?
    I think kostner's 2012 is a perfect example of a 6.0 program CoPifed. It was just right. And her skating is pure. It would stand up very well in any system. The artistic maturity from Kostner is just so above Chen Lu. I don't think it would be close at all.

    Under 6.0 system, Chen Lu got one 5.6 mostly 5.7 and 5.8 for TES and a lot of 5.8 and a few 5.9 for PCS.
    Kostner would have gotten 5.8 for TES and 5.9 to 6.0 for PCS.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Even though Kostner had more spins, better spins, bigger jumps, did 5 clean triples, Chen would come out ahead?
    Well it would have been very close under 6.0, I dont know for sure who would have come out ahead. The thing about 6.0 was that falls and mistakes were a big deal to the judges, much moreso than COP. It wouldnt have just been Chen and Kostner did 5 triples, and everything else, it would be Chen skated cleanly and Kostner had a fall and another big mistake. Remember at those Worlds Nicole Bobek landed only 1 less triple (4), but more than made up for that by doing a triple lutz-triple toe combo which was way harder than anything Chen did. She had way better spins (better than Kostner's too), way better spirals (better than Kostner's too), way bigger jumps than Chen, much more speed than Chen, also had beautiful lines and extensions, and also had a well choreographed program (although less so than Chen and Kostner). She had also very easily beaten Chen in the SP with the exact same jumps. However because she fell twice Chen beat her easily, in fact she was 1st in the LP to Bobek's 4th (I am not questioning Chen beating Bobek in the LP btw, just illustrating how the judges marked mistakes then). Cleanliness was much more important under 6.0 than COP.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Well it would have been very close under 6.0, I dont know for sure who would have come out ahead. The thing about 6.0 was that falls and mistakes were a big deal to the judges, much moreso than COP. It wouldnt have just been Chen and Kostner did 5 triples, and everything else, it would be Chen skated cleanly and Kostner had a fall and another big mistake. P.
    I think you got FlattFan's point incorrectly. She talks about Kostner LP in 2012wc but you take 2013wc. Kostner LP in 2012wc is an almost clean skate. She just doubled 3F2T but before that she had already managed a perfect 3F.

  8. #98
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    Oh sorry my bad. Even then I am not sure since not doing a triple lutz under 6.0 would be a big stickler for the judges.

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    I feel like it is shaping up to be one of the most exciting seasons ever - you have the triumvirat of Yuna, Caro and Mao - imo three of the all-time bests - competing against each other. That alone is amazing! For me, they embody what I love about this sport and they bring something special to the ice. I am excited about the young talents too but imo it is the mixture of the current ladies' field that makes everything so exciting. If the top 3 retire next year, at least for me there will be something missing and I feel like the youngsters might take a while to fill up that gap.

  10. #100
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    I don't think those three are great at all compared to the skaters of the past. YuNa is by far the best of the three, but I find many of her programs to be very cookie cutter (the two at the Olympics being the exception). Mao is great that she lands the axel (and is the only woman who does with any consistency), but she doesn't always skate clean and some of her programs are just meh. Carolina is the closest thing to a female Patrick Chan. She wins without doing lutzes or flips, she wins without skating clean. She did do that nice "Italian talking with her hands" thing in her short program this year, that was different, but in previous years her wins haven't seemed fair.

    Compare this to the years between, say, 98 and 02 when you had the innovative Michelle (who invented that soft, tasteful type of skating that everyone tries to emulate now), the gutsy and peppy Irina, and Sarah, Sasha and Maria Butyrskya. Now that was a quadrennial.

    And as for the men--dear lord, they're awful. Say what you want about Evan, at least he never won and fell. This quadrennial, dominated by Patrick Chan (never skates clean), Daisuke (he usually doesn't either) and a revolving door of other contenders getting the bronze (Hanyu, Javier, Alexander Gachinski, etc.). It's just terrible. Maybe Dennis Ten can save it, but I wouldn't be surprised if he weren't just another one stuck in the door.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Twin practically every event even with 4 or more major errors at many of them (I will be more than happy to make a list)
    Ok, this has got to be put to rest. Here's a list of Chan's 14 wins, and the number of major errors such as falls, popped jumps or ones that got bad GOE (I don't consider mainly -1's a major error) over the course of the SP & FS. I've also included the number of fall in each competition that he won.

    2013 Worlds - 4 (in FS, doubled his lutz, stepped out of his sequence, 3Z fall, 3A< fall -- overall between SP & FS, 2 falls)
    2012 Worlds - 1 (the 3Z-1L<-2S I don't consider a major error but even still, that would be just 2 errors -- 1 fall)
    2011 Worlds - 0 (stepout on the 3A in his FS, but not a major error -- no falls)
    2011 Grand Prix Final - 4 (while neither were falls he stepped out of his first 4T and hands down on his 4T-2T in the FS -- 2 falls)
    2010 Grand Prix Final - 2 (if we consider his < on his 4T in the SP, and his 2nd 3A in the FS -- no falls)
    2011 Four Continents - 1 (though it wasn't counted as a fall, his SP quad was a major error -- no falls)
    2009 Four Continents - 1 (singled his 2A in the FS -- no falls)
    2012 Cup of Russia - 3 (4T-1T in SP, 2L, 3A->2A in FS -- no falls)
    2011 Trophee Eric Bompard - 5 (UR/fall on his SP quad... in FS: lutz(fall), 2Z, botched footwork, 3A turned to double -- 2 falls)
    2008 Trophee Eric Bompard - 2 (made two errors in his FS, but neither was a fall -- no falls)
    2007 Trophee Eric Bompard - 3 (singled his lutz in the SP, 2S-1T and fell on a botched final spin in the FS, 1 fall)
    2011 Skate Canada - 5 (SP shaky 4T, 2A; fall on his first quad in the FS, turning his 3F-1L-3S into a 3F is a major error but not a fall -- 2 falls)
    2010 Skate Canada - 4 (while it cost him points I don't consider his freeskate's 3F-1L-2S sequence or 3L-3T< as major errors -- 4 falls)
    2008 Skate Canada - 3 (had minor errors on his 3A/footwork in the SP, and his first 3A in his FS; major errors on his FS second 3A, he won neither segment but was the best overall -- 1 fall)

    The times he's had 4 or more major errors (SP+FS) and won is Worlds 2013, Skate Canada 2011, Skate Canada 2010, Trophee Eric Bompard 2011, and Grand Prix Final 2011. Of these competitions, his nearest competitors respectively made 1 major error (Ten), 2 major errors including 1 fall (Fernandez), 1 major error being a fall (Oda), 1 major error (Song), 4 major errors (Takahashi). Ten deserved to win, Fernandez possibly deserved to win, Oda deserved to win, Song was cleaner but his programs were very much lacking so 2nd was appropriate, and Takahashi didn't deserve to win (especially after a disastrous SP where he UR'ed his quad and didn't do a combo after missing his lutz).


    To clear things up:
    - Chan has NEVER fallen 5 times in a competition that he's won
    - Chan has only ONCE fallen 4 times within a competition that he's won (and I've said that Oda - even if he also fell in the FS - deserved to win)
    - In 13 out of 14 victories, he's had 2 falls or less. In 9 out of 14 he's had only 1 fall or less. In 5 of them, he's had no falls over the SP and FS.
    - He's had 3 questionable victories where he's made 4+ errors - over Ten at Worlds 2013, over Oda at Skate Canada, over Fernandez at Skate Canada -- and I'm sure it's no coincidence that all three took place in Canada.
    - In most of the victories where he's had major errors (such as the ones I just mentioned), his nearest competitor has, like him, fallen or made at least one major error between the SP & FS... or they've been a competitor like Song or Ten (essentially clean but a subpar skater in comparison to Chan/Takahashi/etc.).

    So, Chan haters can stop spewing ridiculous things like he wins with 5 falls, that he falls and wins all the time, and that he wins with consistently 4+ major errors. Even if he's not a clean skater by any stretch, he's also not the only post-CoP skater to win competitions even with multiple major errors, so stop acting like he is.

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    To clear things up:
    - Chan has NEVER fallen 5 times in a competition that he's won
    - Chan has only ONCE fallen 4 times within a competition that he's won (and I've said that Oda - even if he also fell in the FS - deserved to win)
    What people meant was Chan could fall one more time and still beat Oda.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poodlepal View Post
    Compare this to the years between, say, 98 and 02 when you had the innovative Michelle (who invented that soft, tasteful type of skating that everyone tries to emulate now), the gutsy and peppy Irina, and Sarah, Sasha and Maria Butyrskya. Now that was a quadrennial.
    Oh please what was so great about that group:

    Michelle Kwan- great skater, an all time great of course.
    Irina Slutskaya- sloppy skater who rarely ever delivered her best in big events. Still Michelle's only rival at all this quad.
    Maria Butyrskaya- much weaker skater than anyone in the top 10 today IMO.
    Sarah Hughes- flaws galore, under COP she would be irrelevant.
    Sasha Cohen- this was not her quadrennial, 2003-2006. She only emerged the final season, and wasnt even good enough to beat Fumie Suguri yet (well except once at the Olympics aided by home cooked scoring).

    Kwan and Slutskaya are the only ones of that group who would even be in the top 6 or 7 today IMO (Cohen of 2003-2006 would of course, but this isnt the Cohen we are discussing).

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    2013 Worlds - 4 (in FS, doubled his lutz, stepped out of his sequence, 3Z fall, 3A< fall -- overall between SP & FS, 2 falls)
    2012 Worlds - 1 (the 3Z-1L<-2S I don't consider a major error but even still, that would be just 2 errors -- 1 fall)
    2011 Worlds - 0 (stepout on the 3A in his FS, but not a major error -- no falls)
    2011 Grand Prix Final - 4 (while neither were falls he stepped out of his first 4T and hands down on his 4T-2T in the FS -- 2 falls)
    2010 Grand Prix Final - 2 (if we consider his < on his 4T in the SP, and his 2nd 3A in the FS -- no falls)
    2011 Four Continents - 1 (though it wasn't counted as a fall, his SP quad was a major error -- no falls)
    2009 Four Continents - 1 (singled his 2A in the FS -- no falls)
    2012 Cup of Russia - 3 (4T-1T in SP, 2L, 3A->2A in FS -- no falls)
    2011 Trophee Eric Bompard - 5 (UR/fall on his SP quad... in FS: lutz(fall), 2Z, botched footwork, 3A turned to double -- 2 falls)
    2008 Trophee Eric Bompard - 2 (made two errors in his FS, but neither was a fall -- no falls)
    2007 Trophee Eric Bompard - 3 (singled his lutz in the SP, 2S-1T and fell on a botched final spin in the FS, 1 fall)
    2011 Skate Canada - 5 (SP shaky 4T, 2A; fall on his first quad in the FS, turning his 3F-1L-3S into a 3F is a major error but not a fall -- 2 falls)
    2010 Skate Canada - 4 (while it cost him points I don't consider his freeskate's 3F-1L-2S sequence or 3L-3T< as major errors -- 4 falls)
    2008 Skate Canada - 3 (had minor errors on his 3A/footwork in the SP, and his first 3A in his FS; major errors on his FS second 3A, he won neither segment but was the best overall -- 1 fall)
    All that proves is Chan gets away making WAY more mistakes than anyone in history in any discipline who wins as much as he does. So either he is the most held up skater in history, the mens field since 2008 or 2009 is the worst in history as I said, or (most likely) BOTH. Thanks for saving me the time making a list that proved my point though, you saved me all the work, even if you are seemingly oblivious to it, lol! Anyway now that we have all but confirmed the mens field since Lysacek's World title win is the worst ever, no point even discussing the supposed poor ladies who atleast are much stronger than the men. End of thread.

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    All that proves is Chan gets away making WAY more mistakes than anyone in history in any discipline who wins as much as he does. So either he is the most held up skater in history, the mens field since 2008 or 2009 is the worst in history as I said, or (most likely) BOTH. Thanks for saving me the time making a list that proved my point though, you saved me all the work, even if you are seemingly oblivious to it, lol! Anyway now that we have all but confirmed the mens field since Lysacek's World title win is the worst ever, no point even discussing the supposed poor ladies who atleast are much stronger than the men. End of thread.
    The point of it wasn't to show that he makes mistakes, as I mentioned that he does make mistakes and wins (and conceded that some of his wins weren't merited). So I haven't proved any point of yours that I don't already agree with. I also didn't include all the errors that Chan's competitors made for many of his wins. Tell me your favourite post-CoP skaters and I'm sure I could point out competitions they've won with major errors. Who is your favourite male skater? Hanyu who won NHK with two falls, including a botched spin, a quad stepout, and tacking a single toe on his 3A? Takahashi who won the GPF with a fall on his quad, an underrotated quad-triple, and two shaky 3As?

    Also your point about the men's field being the worst is completely disregarding the fact that men have to do way more content. Seriously, the worst field in 30 years? Did they have to do even half the difficulty 30 years ago? Look at the 2011 World's results... you wouldn't dream of this technical content being executed 30 years ago. Look at all the quads! http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc..._FS_Scores.pdf

    The point was to show that you (and other Chan bashers) make ridiculously exaggerated and asinine statements like Chan wins with 5 falls. Kinda like when you make inaccurate, absurd and misleading statements like Chan only completed 3 out of 8 passes in his Worlds 2013 FS or that 60% of his wins under CoP need review. My sincere apologies for pointing out how wrong and inaccurate you are... so much so that it apparently incited you to make some feeble attempt to play it off as though I proved you right or something?!

    I pity you -- it must really eat you up inside to know that no matter how much you whine and complain that Chan's skating is emotionless and no matter how many false numbers you throw out there about how many times he falls and how many errors he makes, he will STILL end up getting good results because he's a much better skater than a deluded person like you would ever give him credit for. You take any and every opportunity to bash him... and I would consider your obsessiveness to be really pathetic were it not so wonderfully amusing to see how incensed you get about his success, lol!

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