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Thread: Worst Ladies Quadrenial Ever?

  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    The point was to show that you make ridiculously exaggerated and asinine statements like Chan wins with 5 falls. My apologies for pointing out how wrong you are, so much so that it incited you to make some feeble attempt to suggest I proved you right or something.
    Actually, I think Pangtongfan has a point. You are being offended that someone makes a claim that Chan falls five times and still wins. You think it is a huge exaggeration and you went to a real trouble to prove that he never felt five times. Somehow you seem to overlook that falling 'only' four times and still winning is not very much different. Your argument reminded me one film. A criminal arguing "Oh, no, I didn't kill her. I just cut her hand off..." (and she bled to death as a result). Can't you see that it is the same? How would you feel if Alissa Czisny won the worlds last year? (How many times did she fall? Five times? Six times?)

    Furthermore, although I do understand the current system of scoring, I still think that 2 falls and more within one program are far too much for a skater who is going to win. I think falls should be penalised more, and possibly with increasing severity (e.g. first fall 2 points deduction, second fall 3 points, third fall 4 points) because one fall won't spoil the program as much as when the skater is falling all over the place.

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    Actually, I think Pangtongfan has a point. You are being offended that someone makes a claim that Chan falls five times and still wins. You think it is a huge exaggeration and you went to a real trouble to prove that he never felt five times. Somehow you seem to overlook that falling 'only' four times and still winning is not very much different. Your argument reminded me one film. A criminal arguing "Oh, no, I didn't kill her. I just cut her hand off..." (and she bled to death as a result). Can't you see that it is the same? How would you feel if Alissa Czisny won the worlds last year? (How many times did she fall? Five times? Six times?)

    Furthermore, although I do understand the current system of scoring, I still think that 2 falls and more within one program are far too much for a skater who is going to win. I think falls should be penalised more, and possibly with increasing severity (e.g. first fall 2 points deduction, second fall 3 points, third fall 4 points) because one fall won't spoil the program as much as when the skater is falling all over the place.
    I never said that Chan hadn't won without errors, but I didn't make outrageous statements like him winning with 5 falls. He only won with FOUR falls, once. Every other time he's won was 2 falls or less... so this business of saying he will win with 5 falls is absolute ridiculousness and not even close to accurate, nor reflective of past results.

    Also, that's just pointing out HIS error-filled wins. Like I said, Chan isn't the only one to win with so many errors. Recent examples? Takahashi had 4 errors and won the GPF. Hanyu had 4 errors - 2 falls - and won NHK. Oh wait, but they had good short programs, so the win is justified.... doesn't that sound familiar?

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I never said that Chan hadn't won without errors, but I didn't make outrageous statements like him winning with 5 falls. He only won with FOUR falls, once. Every other time he's won was 2 falls or less... so this business of saying he will win with 5 falls is absolute ridiculousness and not even close to accurate, nor reflective of past results.

    Also, that's just pointing out HIS error-filled wins. Like I said, Chan isn't the only one to win with so many errors. Recent examples? Takahashi had 4 errors and won the GPF. Hanyu had 4 errors - 2 falls - and won NHK. Oh wait, but they had good short programs, so the win is justified.... doesn't that sound familiar?

    I know. ONLY four falls. And ONLY once. Don't you think it is once too many? Do we have an example of anyone else who wins with four falls?

    Did Takahashi win GPF with four FALLS? 4 errors is very unspecific, it can be stepping out after successfully landed jump, or double footed jump. But a fall is a fall. Surely you must see that it is a bigger mistake.

  4. #109
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    One more thing: I agree that this year's Worlds, Chan didn't deserve to win. But people seem to think at 2012 Worlds he was also gifted?!

    Last year, Takahashi had a downgraded 3T in his SP, and in his FS he under-rotates his 3F and does only one quad. Hanyu botches his 3Z to a single in his SP, and has a fall (albeit not on an element) in his LP that also has only one quad. Chan has a small turn out on his quad in the SP, and in the FS does only a 2S in his sequence (which isn't really a huge error since even after a deduction it got 7 points) and he fell on his 2A... but landed 2 quads. So why the outrage over the win?

    My point again is that everyone looks at Chan's errors, and whine that he wins, but completely disregard the errors his competitors make or their less difficult content. Everyone is making errors, not just him. You have to cut everyone with the same knife, and not just save the sharp one for one skater.

  5. #110
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    I don't know who should have won last year. I was there, but I don't remember their skating clearly enough that I would want to argue this either way. You may be right that people disregard that other skaters are making mistakes and see only Chan's mistakes, but this is not the first time he won and he shouldn't have, if the scoring system worked as it should. (For example, the Skate Canada with those 4 falls was another competition where he shouldn't have won.) So I am not surprised that people are making the remarks they are making. Quite honestly, watching Worlds this year, I felt exactly the same. Why doesn't he send a DVD with his skating and they can sent him the gold medal by post, if they are going to give it to him anyway, no matter what. They would at least save some money for transport and accommodation.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    One more thing: I agree that this year's Worlds, Chan didn't deserve to win. But people seem to think at 2012 Worlds he was also gifted?!

    Last year, Takahashi had a downgraded 3T in his SP, and in his FS he under-rotates his 3F and does only one quad. Hanyu botches his 3Z to a single in his SP, and has a fall (albeit not on an element) in his LP that also has only one quad. Chan has a small turn out on his quad in the SP, and in the FS does only a 2S in his sequence (which isn't really a huge error since even after a deduction it got 7 points) and he fell on his 2A... but landed 2 quads. So why the outrage over the win?

    My point again is that everyone looks at Chan's errors, and whine that he wins, but completely disregard the errors his competitors make or their less difficult content. Everyone is making errors, not just him. You have to cut everyone with the same knife, and not just save the sharp one for one skater.
    As for 2012 Worlds, I think what most people were angry about was not simply the fact that Chan made those technical errors, but was also visibly behind his music for a significant portion of the second half of his long program (something which he openly admitted to) yet still had the highest PCS in literally every single component of PCS, including Interpretation. And this was a competition where Takahashi had a "clean" to the naked eye LP* with a huge standing ovation. Personally I think there would have been a lot less outrage if Chan won overall, but lost the LP. But he won the LP too, and not by a bare margin like this year.


    *personally I thought the UR call on the 3F was questionable but I will admit that I am biased in this regard

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    I know. ONLY four falls. And ONLY once. Don't you think it is once too many? Do we have an example of anyone else who wins with four falls?

    Did Takahashi win GPF with four FALLS? 4 errors is very unspecific, it can be stepping out after successfully landed jump, or double footed jump. But a fall is a fall. Surely you must see that it is a bigger mistake.
    Chan's 4 fall win was probably the worst to win (bear in mind one of the falls was on footwork, which is such a rareity for him, so it wasn't 4 jumping falls). But Lambiel won the 2005 worlds after a shaky lutz in the SP, and in the FS singling a 3A, doubling a 3Z, and singling a 3F. Of course, for Lambiel's win people argue that the rest of the field performed poorly... and yet some don't feel the need to consider the rest of the field when going after Chan.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Chan's 4 fall win was probably the worst to win (bear in mind one of the falls was on footwork, which is such a rareity for him, so it wasn't 4 jumping falls). But Lambiel won the 2005 worlds after a shaky lutz in the SP, and in the FS singling a 3A, doubling a 3Z, and singling a 3F. Of course, for Lambiel's win people argue that the rest of the field performed poorly... and yet some don't feel the need to consider the rest of the field when going after Chan.
    I think that if there was no Denis Ten at Worlds this year, there would have been a lot less outrage. If almost everyone skated poorly in one way or another (like what happened at 2005 Worlds), it would have been a lot more difficult to point fingers.

    But there was a Denis Ten, and that makes all the difference in the world. Two rather different situations you're trying to conflate here.

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    As for 2012 Worlds, I think what most people were angry about was not simply the fact that Chan made those technical errors, but was also visibly behind his music for a significant portion of the second half of his long program (something which he openly admitted to) yet still had the highest PCS in literally every single component of PCS, including Interpretation. And this was a competition where Takahashi had a "clean" to the naked eye LP* with a huge standing ovation. Personally I think there would have been a lot less outrage if Chan won overall, but lost the LP. But he won the LP too, and not by a bare margin like this year.

    *personally I thought the UR call on the 3F was questionable but I will admit that I am biased in this regard
    Takahashi lost the FS by 3 points. The < on the 3F took care of that (that's essentially 3 points there). And Chan landed 2 quads -- his top two jumping passes (4T, 4T-3T) were worth 5 points more than Takahashi's top two jumping passes (4T, 3A-3T x). Chan also got much higher GOE on the other elements than Takahashi (even though Chan's BV was 5 points lower than Takahashi, his TES with GOE was actually higher overall). I agree that it would have been less outrage if Chan lost the FS, but in the grand scheme of things, it didn't make a big difference in the standings as Chan won by over 6 points and outscored Takahashi technically in both the SP and FS.

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Takahashi lost the FS by 3 points. The < on the 3F took care of that (that's essentially 3 points there). And Chan landed 2 quads -- his top two jumping passes (4T, 4T-3T) were worth 5 points more than Takahashi's top two jumping passes (4T, 3A-3T x). Chan also got much higher GOE on the other elements than Takahashi (even though Chan's BV was 5 points lower than Takahashi, his TES with GOE was actually higher overall). I agree that it would have been less outrage if Chan lost the FS, but in the grand scheme of things, it didn't make a big difference in the standings as Chan won by over 6 points and outscored Takahashi technically in both the SP and FS.
    You still haven't addressed the issue of PCS, which was the main point of controversy at 2012 Worlds. Do you honestly believe that Chan deserved five more points in PCS than Takahashi given how both skaters performed that night?

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    I think that if there was no Denis Ten at Worlds this year, there would have been a lot less outrage. If almost everyone skated poorly in one way or another (like what happened at 2005 Worlds), it would have been a lot more difficult to point fingers.

    But there was a Denis Ten, and that makes all the difference in the world. Two rather different situations you're trying to conflate here.
    Oh, totally. I think people are also upset that it was Chan who ended up being the winner. If it were Takahashi who had a flawed FS but still won over Ten I'm sure many would defend him like "Oh, well Takahashi's a much better skater than Ten." It's like Ten is being used as a scapegoat to bash Chan, simply because Fernandez/Hanyu/Takahashi were all a bust. The margin of victory was close and I'm pretty sure some people didn't care if Denis Ten won so much as they cared if Patrick Chan (with that FS performance) lost.

    Everyone knows Chan (or any skater who skated like he did) shouldn't have won, and were it not for Ten, everyone would just be silent and say his title was a case of a strong SP and being the best-of-the-worst overall.

    It also bears mentioning again that Ten did win the FS.

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Chan's 4 fall win was probably the worst to win (bear in mind one of the falls was on footwork, which is such a rareity for him, so it wasn't 4 jumping falls). But Lambiel won the 2005 worlds after a shaky lutz in the SP, and in the FS singling a 3A, doubling a 3Z, and singling a 3F. Of course, for Lambiel's win people argue that the rest of the field performed poorly... and yet some don't feel the need to consider the rest of the field when going after Chan.
    Shaky Lutz? Landed, it counts.
    Singling a 3A, doubling a 3Z, and singling a 3F - not the most difficult technical content, but as far asd I know, there is nowhere written that all jumps must be triples or quads. I would rather Chan singled or doubled something, but does he have to keep falling?

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post

    Everyone knows Chan (or any skater who skated like he did) shouldn't have won, and were it not for Ten, everyone would just be silent and say his title was a case of a strong SP and being the best-of-the-worst overall.
    Then why do you keep using Lambiel in 2005 as an example to complain about some sort of double standard? It was a different situation so of course people would react differently.

  14. #119
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    Lambiel in 2005 is a stupid example as it is clear nobody skated better than him or well enough to beat him, despite his problems in the LP (and for all his problems he still didnt fall even once). That is not the case at the last 2 Worlds for Chan at all.

    Anyway getting this thread back on track of the ladies quadrennials in the last 40 years I would rank them:

    1. 1989-1992. Ito, Harding, Yamaguchi, Trenary, Kerrigan, tons of amazing skating at various points.
    2. 2007-2010. Asada, Ando, Kim, Rochette all at their career peaks, Kostner's career peak probably the following quad but still very good, Nakano and Meissner also very good at different points.
    2. 1981-1984. Lots of depth that era with 4 great stars- Zayak, Sumners, Witt, Biellmann, and lots of other strong supporting skaters.
    4. 1993-1994. Not one super standout legend but a ton of depth. Kerrigan, Baiul, Sato, Chen, Chouinard, Harding, Szewcenko, Bonaly.
    5. 2011-2014. Kim coming back in the 2nd half of the quad and at her best. Asada very strong at various points although less consistent. Kostner hitting her peak. Ando starting the quad on fire. American girls improving again, and lots of promising younger skaters emerging.
    6. 1985-1988. Witt and Thomas excellent through the whole quad. Manley excellent much of the quad, and other strong Americans like Kadavy, Chin, Trenary, and a great figures specialist Ivanova and young jumping phenom who could already out freeskate everyone in Ito. Maybe this should go above 2011-2014 which would still leave it right in the middle.
    7. 1999-2002- Irina hitting her peak, Michelle close to her best, Maria and Hughes at various points somewhat strong.
    8. 2003-2006- A bit of a schizofrenic quad, Slutskaya coming back to some of her best skating ever in the second half after being largely absent the first. Kwan still a force but nowhere near her best any longer. Arakawa emerging as a major but erratic force. Cohen being at her peak consistency, but consistently falling short of big wins. Suguri a good second tier contender.
    9. 1995-1998. Tara and Michelle held up this whole quad (and in the case of Tara only in 97 and 98, before that she was World #15 and World Junior #5), and Chen in 95 and 96 was very good. The rest of it was meh. Very weak depth, except for to some degree the 95 Worlds.
    10. 1977-1980. Terrible quad. All about Poetzsch and Fratianne, neither who are championship caliber skaters in most eras.

    So far from the worst ladies quad ever, far from the best either. Somewhere in the middle really.

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    Shaky Lutz? Landed, it counts.
    Singling a 3A, doubling a 3Z, and singling a 3F - not the most difficult technical content, but as far asd I know, there is nowhere written that all jumps must be triples or quads. I would rather Chan singled or doubled something, but does he have to keep falling?
    Actually singled jumps are severe, even if they're 'prettier' than falls. I hadn't done the math before, but Lambiel's freeskate in 2005 is technically worse (in terms of deductions) than Chan's FS in 2013.

    Applying the current scale of values to Lambiel's jumps:
    Lambiel's 3A->1A = 7.4 points given up
    Lambiel's 3F->1F = 4.8 points given up
    Lambiel's 3Z->2Z = 3.9 points given up
    Total: 17.1 points given up

    Chan's 3A<(fall) = 6.75 points given up (this takes 70%, -GOE and the -1 deduction into account)
    Chan's 3F-3S error = 1.3 points given up (-GOE deduction)
    Chan's 3Z(fall) = 3.1 points given up (with -GOE and -1 considered)
    Chan's 3Z->2Z = 3.9 points given up
    Total points given up = 15.05 points given up

    So, even though Lambiel never fell, his errors technically amounted to worse than Chan's Worlds 2013 FS.

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