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Thread: Worst Ladies Quadrenial Ever?

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    You still haven't addressed the issue of PCS, which was the main point of controversy at 2012 Worlds. Do you honestly believe that Chan deserved five more points in PCS than Takahashi given how both skaters performed that night?
    Takahashi unquestionably deserved higher PCS than Chan in the LP, and should have outscored him in every COP category except skating skills that night. That alone would have been enough to switch the result to Takahashi winning as Takahashi ending up just a couple points higher in PCS (rather than closer to Amodio than Chan, a true joke and embarassment) would give him the winning overall score, which is more than sufficient for most people to think that should have been the end result.

  2. #122
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    Very interesting analysis. Thanks, pangtongfan. I'd add that in 1999–2002, Sasha was becoming very promising, at least in the last two years of that quad. She had all her strengths in place, though her weaknesses (mostly inconsistency in the long program and her edges) were also apparent. Remember, though, that she came in fourth in the 2002 Olympics and was in a medal position after that wonderful short program to "Sentimental Waltz." (Perhaps my favorite of her programs.) Not too bad for a headcase.

  3. #123
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    Sasha in addition to consistency, needed to build up her reputation at that point (which she would have gotten more of had she done better at Junior Worlds and gone to the 2000 Worlds, or not been injured and maybe gone to the 2001 Worlds), and her choreography and basic skating were nowhere near as strong then as they would become. Her Carmen LP at the Olympics for instance, while nice in many respects, had tons of just basic stroking between elements, which is something in later years you would never see from her, as she developed very strong choreography minus the blip she was with Wagner. Her edges, flow, and speed while never her forte, also improved greatly in future years. Her greatest strengths were mostly already in evidence though, and that would make her a huge force over the next quad. Cohen really should have been the skater of the 03-06 quad as she should have won Nationals 2-4 times, rather than just 1, and probably about 2 of the Worlds that quad, but she unfortunately couldnt peak at the right times.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Lambiel in 2005 is a stupid example as it is clear nobody skated better than him or well enough to beat him, despite his problems in the LP (and for all his problems he still didnt fall even once). That is not the case at the last 2 Worlds for Chan at all.

    Anyway getting this thread back on track of the ladies quadrennials in the last 40 years I would rank them:

    1. 1989-1992. Ito, Harding, Yamaguchi, Trenary, Kerrigan, tons of amazing skating at various points.
    2. 2007-2010. Asada, Ando, Kim, Rochette all at their career peaks, Kostner's career peak probably the following quad but still very good, Nakano and Meissner also very good at different points.
    2. 1981-1984. Lots of depth that era with 4 great stars- Zayak, Sumners, Witt, Biellmann, and lots of other strong supporting skaters.
    4. 1993-1994. Not one super standout legend but a ton of depth. Kerrigan, Baiul, Sato, Chen, Chouinard, Harding, Szewcenko, Bonaly.
    5. 2011-2014. Kim coming back in the 2nd half of the quad and at her best. Asada very strong at various points although less consistent. Kostner hitting her peak. Ando starting the quad on fire. American girls improving again, and lots of promising younger skaters emerging.
    6. 1985-1988. Witt and Thomas excellent through the whole quad. Manley excellent much of the quad, and other strong Americans like Kadavy, Chin, Trenary, and a great figures specialist Ivanova and young jumping phenom who could already out freeskate everyone in Ito. Maybe this should go above 2011-2014 which would still leave it right in the middle.
    7. 1999-2002- Irina hitting her peak, Michelle close to her best, Maria and Hughes at various points somewhat strong.
    8. 2003-2006- A bit of a schizofrenic quad, Slutskaya coming back to some of her best skating ever in the second half after being largely absent the first. Kwan still a force but nowhere near her best any longer. Arakawa emerging as a major but erratic force. Cohen being at her peak consistency, but consistently falling short of big wins. Suguri a good second tier contender.
    9. 1995-1998. Tara and Michelle held up this whole quad (and in the case of Tara only in 97 and 98, before that she was World #15 and World Junior #5), and Chen in 95 and 96 was very good. The rest of it was meh. Very weak depth, except for to some degree the 95 Worlds.
    10. 1977-1980. Terrible quad. All about Poetzsch and Fratianne, neither who are championship caliber skaters in most eras.

    So far from the worst ladies quad ever, far from the best either. Somewhere in the middle really.

    I agree with a lot of what you wrote but I think we should take into account the quality of the skating more, and not just the depth of the field which is what you appear to emphasize. For example, I would not have ranked 1993-1994 so high, as I found the quality of skating rather lacking in that era even if the field was deep. Chen and Szewczenko were relatively immature, Kerrigan was a lackluster and stiff skater, Bonaly was seriously lacking in so many ways, Harding was not at her peak, etc.

    The skating of Chen, Kwan, and Lipinski in the 1995-1998 period from a quality perspective was just so much better than 1993-4 in so many ways. The programs and performances from this period--Salome, Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto No. 2, Lyra Angelica, etc...these are all classic programs and are still considered to be some of the best ever.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Lambiel in 2005 is a stupid example as it is clear nobody skated better than him or well enough to beat him, despite his problems in the LP (and for all his problems he still didnt fall even once). .
    Wrong. Kevin Van Der Perren had a similar scenario to Chan/Ten. He skated a practically clean FS with 8 triples including two triple axels and a 3-3-3... similar to Ten, he was a "lesser tier skater" with an easier jump layout than Lambiel but skated wayyy cleaner. Nobody seemed to bat an eyelid that he didn't win the FS (or at least place above Buttle with 2 falls). He also skated a practically clean SP too but was in 12th (over skaters who had falls or popped, like Weir/Plushenko/Sandhu). And Ten actually won the FS by 5.5 points... but a clean Van Der Perren doesn't even come close to Lambiel (11 points lower than him the FS) who singles 2 major triples, doubles one of them, and has no 3A?

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Wrong. Kevin Van Der Perren had a similar scenario to Chan/Ten. He skated a practically clean FS with 8 triples including two triple axels and a 3-3-3... similar to Ten, he was a "lesser tier skater" with an easier jump layout than Lambiel but skated wayyy cleaner. Nobody seemed to bat an eyelid that he didn't win the FS (or at least place above Buttle with 2 falls). He also skated a practically clean SP too but was in 12th (over skaters who had falls or popped, like Weir/Plushenko/Sandhu). And Ten actually won the FS by 5.5 points... but a clean Van Der Perren doesn't even come close to Lambiel (11 points lower than him the FS) who singles 2 major triples, doubles one of them, and has no 3A?
    Come on. You're not even trying anymore, right? The gap between KVDP and Lambiel in skating skills, spinning, choreography, interpretation, etc (basically everything except jumps) is far, far, far larger than the gap between Ten and Chan. And KVDP couldn't even beat Lambiel in TES that night because his other elements aside from the jumps were so weak! Note that KVDP had all level 1s on his non-jump elements except for one level 2 spin.

    Plus, KVDP's layout was much easier than Lambiel's, much more so than Ten's layout was easier than Chan. KVPD was doing three 2As in his LP and no quad while Lambiel was going for 2 quads, including one in the second half. Chan may have been doing two quads, but he also only had one 3A while Ten had one quad but 2 3As.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    Come on. You're not even trying anymore, right? The gap between KVDP and Lambiel in skating skills, spinning, choreographic, interpretation, etc (basically everything except jumps) is far, far, far larger than the gap between Ten and Chan. And KVDP couldn't even beat Lambiel in TES that night because his other elements aside from the jumps were so weak!
    Actually, KVDP did beat Lambiel in TES scores that night. Come on. You're not even fact-checking anymore, right?

    I'm aware of Lambiel's superior PCS and spins. But I'm pointing out simply that KVDP in the FS thoroughly outjumped Lambiel which should have counted for more. 8 triples, including two 3A, and a 3-3-3, places 11 points back of 2 quads and 4 triples? And KVDP arguably should have placed higher in the FS than Buttle who had 5 triples and two falls. But if that's supposedly okay with people, then why is Ten beating Chan by 5 points in the FS such an outrage when the errors Lambiel/Chan committed (as I've pointed out) were of similar severity (more severe, in Lambiel's case)?

  8. #128
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    I disagree. Yes, in places the quad has been weak but overall its been exciting to watch and has unleashed some great talent!

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    I agree with a lot of what you wrote but I think we should take into account the quality of the skating more, and not just the depth of the field which is what you appear to emphasize. For example, I would not have ranked 1993-1994 so high, as I found the quality of skating rather lacking in that era even if the field was deep. Chen and Szewczenko were relatively immature, Kerrigan was a lackluster and stiff skater, Bonaly was seriously lacking in so many ways, Harding was not at her peak, etc.

    The skating of Chen, Kwan, and Lipinski in the 1995-1998 period from a quality perspective was just so much better than 1993-4 in so many ways. The programs and performances from this period--Salome, Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto No. 2, Lyra Angelica, etc...these are all classic programs and are still considered to be some of the best ever.
    Fair point. I dont just consider depth but also quality. However the quality of the 1995-1998 wasnt often that high, even if just looking at a few individual skaters IMO. Kwan and Chen at the 1996 Worlds were outstanding yes. The 1996-1997 season was a mess, with nearly everyone from the top 10 in 1996 slumping, retiring, dissapearing, etc....which is how a really immature, tiny jumping, and no artisty yet Lipinski rose from 15th to 1st, and how Kwan who was skating so poorly she called it her coma finished 1st or 2nd in every event. The 1994-1995 season was completely unremarkable too, although the 95 World was a nice surprise and produced some decent and surprisingly good skating. The high point of the 1997-1998 season was Kwan and at times Tara, ending with a very weak Lipinski/many others absent Worlds in 1998 where even Kwan was unremarkable. Maybe I overrated 1993-1994 too much based on depth, when you are right there wasnt any solo amazing skaters, but I wouldnt raise 1995-1998 much above where I ranked it.

    Many skaters who in theory should have been strong forces the whole 1995-1998 quad also evaporated:

    Chen- fell off the map after 96 Worlds, and even her Olympic bronze skate was technically low quality, and a sign of an overall weakish field.
    Bonaly- fell out as a contender after 95 Worlds, totally lost her jumping abilty and she never had much else.
    Bobek- fell off as a contender after 95 Worlds, proved to be a one off season which was dissapointing considering her huge talent.
    Sato- Surprisingly went pro after 94 Worlds.
    Bauil- Surprisingly went pro after 94 Olympics.
    Slutskaya- fell off in huge way after 96 Worlds, even though she remained near the top while jumping very inconsistently, and artistically not developing at all.

    Mostly only 1 or 2 strong skaters at the top at a given time.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Actually, KVDP did beat Lambiel in TES scores that night. Come on. You're not even source-checking before throwing out incorrect statements, right?

    I'm aware of Lambiel's superior PCS and spins. But I'm pointing out simply that KVDP in the FS outskated Lambiel, at least from a jumping standpoint. 8 triples, including two 3A, and a 3-3-3, and that places 11 points back of 2 quads and 4 triples? And KVDP certainly should have placed higher than than Buttle who had 5 triples and two falls. But if that's supposedly okay with people, then why is Ten beating Chan by 5 points in the FS such an outrage when the errors Lambiel/Chan committed (as I've pointed out) were of similar severity (more severe, in Lambiel's case)?
    KVDP beat Lambiel by one point despite appearing to skate cleanly while Lambiel had a bunch of major errors. I think that's pretty indicative of something. And I absolutely do not think that KVDP should have beaten Buttle. KVPD's skating quality is much too lacking to even be compared to Buttle. Buttle like Lambiel is superior in absolutely every single category except for jumps, and by a long mile. His floor and ceiling is just that much higher than KVDP....

    Anyway for me, it's not just about skating clean--it's also about the calibre of the skater who skates cleanly. If KVDP skated at Worlds this year with his performances in 2005, I doubt anyone would have complained if Chan beat him. Note that nobody's complaining that Chan soundly beat someone like Max Aaron, though Aaron clearly outskated Chan in terms of jumps and beat him on TES. Doesn't that tell you something?

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Wrong. Kevin Van Der Perren had a similar scenario to Chan/Ten. He skated a practically clean FS with 8 triples including two triple axels and a 3-3-3... similar to Ten, he was a "lesser tier skater" with an easier jump layout than Lambiel but skated wayyy cleaner. Nobody seemed to bat an eyelid that he didn't win the FS (or at least place above Buttle with 2 falls). He also skated a practically clean SP too but was in 12th (over skaters who had falls or popped, like Weir/Plushenko/Sandhu). And Ten actually won the FS by 5.5 points... but a clean Van Der Perren doesn't even come close to Lambiel (11 points lower than him the FS) who singles 2 major triples, doubles one of them, and has no 3A?
    Your examples are getting more and more desperate and delusional. Van Der Perren is an awful skater (aside from his jumping abilities) who can do nothing but jump, is incredibly slow, cant spin. To suggest that is comparable scenario to Chan/Ten is embarassing, and you should literally hide your hand in the sand now and stop talking, as you are just digging yourself deeper and deeper with each new thing you say now. One thing I should point out to you btw that you seem oblivious to is not everyone concedes Chan is miles ahead of everyone else each non jumping aspect of the sport, and aside from his mistakes is the best thing to ever hit ice skates. That is not the consensus, that is only your (quite biased) opinion.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Fair point. I dont just consider depth but also quality. However the quality of the 1995-1998 wasnt often that high, even if just looking at a few individual skaters IMO. Kwan and Chen at the 1996 Worlds were outstanding yes. The 1996-1997 season was a mess, with nearly everyone from the top 10 in 1996 slumping, retiring, dissapearing, etc....which is how a really immature, tiny jumping, and no artisty yet Lipinski rose from 15th to 1st, and how Kwan who was skating so poorly she called it her coma finished 1st or 2nd in every event. The 1994-1995 season was completely unremarkable too, although the 95 World was a nice surprise and produced some decent and surprisingly good skating. The high point of the 1997-1998 season was Kwan and at times Tara, ending with a very weak Lipinski/many others absent Worlds in 1998 where even Kwan was unremarkable. Maybe I overrated 1993-1994 too much based on depth, when you are right there wasnt any solo amazing skaters, but I wouldnt raise 1995-1998 much above where I ranked it.

    Many skaters who in theory should have been strong forces the whole 1995-1998 quad also evaporated:

    Chen- fell off the map after 96 Worlds, and even her Olympic bronze skate was technically low quality, and a sign of an overall weakish field.
    Bonaly- fell out as a contender after 95 Worlds, totally lost her jumping abilty and she never had much else.
    Bobek- fell off as a contender after 95 Worlds, proved to be a one off season which was dissapointing considering her huge talent.
    Sato- Surprisingly went pro after 94 Worlds.
    Bauil- Surprisingly went pro after 94 Olympics.
    Slutskaya- fell off in huge way after 96 Worlds, even though she remained near the top while jumping very inconsistently, and artistically not developing at all.

    Mostly only 1 or 2 strong skaters at the top at a given time.
    Fair enough. I guess to me, the outstanding skating displayed by the topmost skaters (even if there were only 2) counts for a lot and elevates the entire period. Look at this way--in some ways the 1998-2002 Olympic cycle for men was a really poor cycle. Outside of Yags and Plush, there were the aging Stojko and Eldredge, wildly inconsistent Abt, Goebel who could only jump, and journeymen like Li and Weiss. But so many people cite 1998-2002 as a strong period for the men because the skating of the top 2 was so high in quality and so exciting.

    How would you rank the men BTW?

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    KVDP beat Lambiel by one point despite appearing to skate cleanly while Lambiel had a bunch of major errors. I think that's pretty indicative of something. And I absolutely do not think that KVDP should have beaten Buttle. KVPD's skating quality is much too lacking to even be compared to Buttle. Buttle like Lambiel is superior in absolutely every single category except for jumps, and by a long mile. His floor and ceiling is just that much higher than KVDP....

    Anyway for me, it's not just about skating clean--it's also about the calibre of the skater who skates cleanly. If KVDP skated at Worlds this year with his performances in 2005, I doubt anyone would have complained if Chan beat him. Note that nobody's complaining that Chan soundly beat someone like Max Aaron, though Aaron clearly outskated Chan in terms of jumps and beat him on TES. Doesn't that tell you something?
    Yes, but he still beat him in TES. And yes, it's due to superior spins and footwork that it was close. Not to mention two quads that made up for the errors -- similar to the two quads that made up for Chan's errors.

    It's a sport that should hold errors accountable, and for the same reason people are outraged that Chan with 2 falls and 2 other errors places ahead of somebody who goes almost clean, should really be applied to a scenario where a skater like Buttle falls twice with easy content and still gets the PCS that keeps him miles ahead of a clean skater who lands 8 triples. And clearly I'm being unbiased given Buttle's nationality. To all of a sudden be like, oh well Lambiel/Buttle/Chan are far better skaters so they should win even if they bomb is pretty lame and frankly unfair to those guys who skate technically brilliant performances that deserve higher rewards but will never have the same level of footwork/artistry so are putatively held back.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    One thing I should point out to you btw that you seem oblivious to is not everyone concedes Chan is miles ahead of everyone else each non jumping aspect of the sport, and aside from his mistakes is the best thing to ever hit ice skates. That is not the consensus, that is only your (quite biased) opinion.
    Well to the judges he is. And aside from his mistakes he is one of the best skaters to hit the ice. You won't ever concede that Chan's choreography, transitions, performance and interpretation deserve the marks that they get because his skating is apparently blank and soulless in your eyes... and that is not the consensus and is only your quite biased opinion.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Yes, but he still beat him in TES. And yes, it's due to superior spins and footwork. Not to mention two quads that made up for the errors -- similar to the two quads that made up for Chan's errors.

    It's a sport that should hold errors accountable, and for the same reason people are outraged that Chan with 2 falls and 2 other errors places ahead of somebody who goes almost clean, should really be applied to a scenario where a skater like Buttle falls twice with easy content and still gets the PCS that keeps them miles ahead of a clean skater who lands 8 triples. And clearly I'm being unbiased.
    You're still ignoring context. I'm going to ask this question again: why don't you think that anyone is complaining that Chan soundly beat Max Aaron? Or maybe, why don't you think anyone is complaining that Chan soundly beat Mura? Or the fact that Chan crushed Rogozine?


    After all, Aaron, Mura and Rogozine were easily much cleaner than Chan in the LP.

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