Here's the Finnstep | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Here's the Finnstep

WeakAnkles

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
OTOH, I think what COP has done is bring the sport back into ice dance. I remember watching ice dancing the year before T/D's Bolero, and my sister saying it was so boring because it was like "Lawrence Welk on ice." Then after Bolero, it turned into so much traumadrama, what I used to call "Ingmar Bergman On Blades!" I mean, it got to the point where it seemed like every single program ended with a dramatic flop to the ice--so much so that they had to institute a rule to stop it. And of all of the four disciplines, ice dance was the MOST notorious for 'fixed scoring.' And not without reason.

I think there is some validity to what you do say about the problems with COP. I think the biggest problem is there is no place for what I think of as elegant simplicity, a move that in itself is not technically difficult but packs an emotional wallop. And yes, some of the lifts are obviously there for point-gathering rather than choreographic integrity. But to say that ice dance has turned into "pairs skating with dance elements" is something I simply cannot agree with at all. Apples and oranges. They may both be fruits but still...apples and oranges.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
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Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
http://www.ice-dance.com/main/images/stories/pdf/compulsory/Finnstep.pdf
Theses are just guesses, but as good as anyone else's (no good :laugh:)

There's 3 key points per sequence, unless the change the rules. However, a key point may be several steps, or just the man's step or the lady's step, from one single step.

In the first sequence:


The dance has 70 steps, so perhaps it breaks at step 35 into two halves?

I think the first sequence might have 2 key points in this area (steps 32 & 33)


During the leg swing, in preparation for the swing closed choctaw (step 32), the lady moves ahead under the man’s left arm to hand in hand, with arms bent. On step 33a the man skates an open RBI mohawk, while the lady starts her step 33 on an RBI followed by her change of edge in preparation for their second set of simultaneous twizzles (his step 33c while she continues her step 33). The couple passes through waltz hold, then the lady’s left arm briefly touches the man’s back. The man’s left hand holds the lady’s right during the twizzle. After turning their twizzles (1 rotation for the man; 1! for the lady), the couple slides into a stop in Kilian with both of their arms extended to the side and their hands clasped in a “butterfly” hold, and with their free legs extended to the side.

And perhaps a keypoint to emphasize timing, perhaps from the beginning promenade section:

The lady’s twizzle of 1 ! rotations (her step 12) needs to be very fast. At the conclusion of her twizzle, the couple skates steps 13-18 in partial outside hold (like the Viennese opening steps), before moving to outside hold on step 19.

In the second sequence, I wouldn't be surprised if the key points came from these areas, and step 64:

The cross behind closed Choctaw (step 64) must be skated with clean and deep edges to enable tight, simultaneous Twizzles just before the re-start. A poor execution of the Choctaw and Twizzle will lead to difficulties for the re-start and poor character of the 1st part of the
dance.

Perhaps something with the Hopped Open Mohawk in step 59, since that is unique to the Finnstep, AFAIR.

And this is an interesting item. Teams that aren't good at looking like they're having a ball on the ice will be at a disadvantage:

Summary
Dance is a means of expression. If the execution of this dance does not evoke feelings in the audience, even if it were technically correct and clean, it would not be a successful performance. The dance must be as much fun to watch as it is to dance. Otherwise the performers should not be rewarded with good marks.
 
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vera01

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 6, 2013
I think Finnstep would give some dancers trouble-especially if they have few problems with their knees.

It would be interesting to see how top dancers like V/M, D/W, W/P, P/B +B/S, I/K would be doing especially since it's an Olympic season.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
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Country
United-States
I think the Finnstep will disadvantage I&K, of that group, D&W, V&M, P&B, and C&L, all competed the Finnstep at either 4CC's or Europeans during the 2008/2009 season. I&K were not yet seniors and so have to learn it from scratch; much more difficult.

B&S were seniors, but did not do Europeans because they were 4th at Russian Nationals. They probably learned the dance, but I don't know whether they ever competed it; I don't know what the CD was at Russian Nationals that year.

This article suggests that the Finnstep was used for Russian Nationals. If so, B&S were beaten by Rubleva & Shefer for the spot at Europeans, mostly because of a relatively poor 4th place showing in the CD
http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/archive/features/Finnstep.htm

V&M and P&B have already been posted.
Here's C/L & D/W

C/L
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIISlu62Mw4

D/W
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypFuIG1Bb48
 
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WeakAnkles

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
I think Finnstep would give some dancers trouble-especially if they have few problems with their knees.

It would be interesting to see how top dancers like V/M, D/W, W/P, P/B +B/S, I/K would be doing especially since it's an Olympic season.

That combination of technically demanding (thank you Doris for explaining just how technically demanding this dance is) and a bubbly, effervescent performance makes it a really good choice for an Olympic year, doncha think? It will also complement what will no doubt be a SLEW of heavy, dramatic free dances (it will be an Olympic year after all, and that always seems to bring out the UberDrama!).
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
That combination of technically demanding (thank you Doris for explaining just how technically demanding this dance is) and a bubbly, effervescent performance makes it a really good choice for an Olympic year, doncha think? It will also complement what will no doubt be a SLEW of heavy, dramatic free dances (it will be an Olympic year after all, and that always seems to bring out the UberDrama!).
If you look at the quote by Petri Kokko that I posted upthread, it seems that he doesn't consider it a particularly difficult dance technically - it's the timing that makes it difficult.

I think there aren't that many lighter free dances even outside of Olympic years.

Doris - IIRC, one of the European teams was involved in making the training/instructional video for the Finnstep prior to 2008-9. Am I right? I think it would have been either C/L or Carron/Jones. Do you remember anything like that?
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
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I know that Kati Winkler & René Lohse of Germany did a demonstration version of the Finnstep when it was called "The Sunshine Quickstep." They were a very elegant dance team, and favorites of mine, but they had many injuries. In their final season, they won the bronze medal at Worlds in 2004.

On the Finnstep documentation, Winkler & Lohse are given credit for assisting Rahkamo & Kokko with developing the ISU Finnstep from their Quickstep OD.

As to the difficulty, there are 70 steps, done at a rapid tempo, which must be done on the correct beats of the music, and the correct edges.

During the one season it was competed, it was not uncommon to see lower ranked teams leaving out steps to get back on the beat. So as pattern dances go, I'd say it was difficult.
 
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KKonas

Medalist
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Winkler & Lohse and Rahkamo & Kokko were both coached by Martin Skotnicky. Skotnicky was known for creating interesting and unusual programs and still does to this day. The Finnstep, besides being quick with a lot of steps, also must have a light, bouncy feel to its presentation. Zoueva didn't think it was difficult enough for the Olympic year, but Gordon-Poltorak insisted it was. At least the Finnstep will be a fun dance to watch.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
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Zoueva.."too easy" ....that's one way to put it.

My guess is that she thinks at least one of her 3 teams will have trouble with it :laugh:

It's certainly harder than the rhumba.

It was hard enought that B&A declined to learn it in 2009.

And as we saw with both Blues in juniors, and Rhumba, and Yankee Polka in seniors, you can pick the key points so that some very good teams will have troubles getting them, at least at first.

The choctaw into the twizzle turn is quite tricky. The Golden Waltz is, IMO, harder, but they've had a Golden SD already.
 
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gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Hahaha, just took a good look at the pattern linked in the first post -- I hadn't really seen it before. The markings for the toepick steps/hops are new symbols and make sense. But what really amuses me is the stop sign to mark the stationary hoppy steps. :D
 

clairecloutier

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 27, 2003
This looks like a really fun dance!! Definitely fast-paced, with lots of steps. I like it.

At first glance, I think this CD gives a definite advantage to Davis/White over V/M and other teams. No one does "joyous, light, and quick" better than Meryl & Charlie. Their 2009 CD version was quite good. And they've improved so much since then, I can only imagine how much better their interpretation will be next year. The dance may be good for the Shibutanis too, as it's light and doesn't call for sexiness or sensuality (unlike the rhumba). It may be tough for taller, more dramatic teams like Bobrova/Soloviev and Hubbell/Donohue. And, yeah, I wouldn't see it being a standout number for I/K either.

It was hard enough that B&A declined to learn it in 2009.

As to B&A, didn't they need it to compete at Worlds in 2009?
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
At first glance, I think this CD gives a definite advantage to Davis/White over V/M and other teams. No one does "joyous, light, and quick" better than Meryl & Charlie. Their 2009 CD version was quite good. And they've improved so much since then, I can only imagine how much better their interpretation will be next year. The dance may be good for the Shibutanis too, as it's light and doesn't call for sexiness or sensuality (unlike the rhumba). It may be tough for taller, more dramatic teams like Bobrova/Soloviev and Hubbell/Donohue. And, yeah, I wouldn't see it being a standout number for I/K either.
I disagree. For me, D/W are at their best with more dramatic/powerful material. I don't think a light touch is their forte at all. Leaving aside the technical side of it, in terms of character I think that Cappellini and Lanotte would well suited to the Finnstep. It could work for the Shibs, assuming they aren't dropped even more in the standings next season.

As to B&A, didn't they need it to compete at Worlds in 2009?
The CD for 2009 Worlds was the Paso Doble, and I think that was either known or a foregone conclusion as soon as the Finnstep was picked for the continental championships.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
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Especially in SD's, CD's, & OD's

I haven't seen any evidence that D&W have a hard time with quick footwork or showing a happy happy joy joy mood.

D&W's YP Giselle SD for this year is certainly light, quick & joyous.

So was their Charleston Happy Feet OD, but they had problems with it, but with the tech content, not the character. It was a bit over their heads back then, but they had the character of the dance spot on, as they did with the Finnstep-they weren't accurate enough back then, but they had the character.

For that matter, Bollywood was a light, happy flirty thing, and so was last year's FD, Die Fledermaus, and many people think those are 2 of their best programs ever.

So I don't agree at all that they have any particular problem doing a happy, joyous dance.
 

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
Anstasia Cannuscio twweted this, with the comment "I'm scared!"

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BCRsK-_CYAA3X69.jpg:large

Update from Anastasia Cannuscio ‏@StasiaRose ;):
Dreamt about the Finnstep last night... Apparently, I can't even get the timing right in my dreams. #DancerProbs #Day3
5:42 AM - 7 Feb 13

For the ice dancers whose season ended at Nationals, I guess the good news is that they are getting a head start on next season's SD ...
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
I haven't seen any evidence that D&W have a hard time with quick footwork or showing a happy happy joy joy mood.

D&W's YP Giselle SD for this year is certainly light, quick & joyous.

So was their Charleston Happy Feet OD, but they had problems with it, but with the tech content, not the character. It was a bit over their heads back then, but they had the character of the dance spot on, as they did with the Finnstep-they weren't accurate enough back then, but they had the character.

For that matter, Bollywood was a light, happy flirty thing, and so was last year's FD, Die Fledermaus, and many people think those are 2 of their best programs ever.

So I don't agree at all that they have any particular problem doing a happy, joyous dance.
I've heard that so many of D/W's programs are their "best ever" that I suspect this is an individual thing. For me, the lighter programs are not their best, and the expression, to me, seems more forced. However - I did not suggest they would have a problem; only that "joyous, light and quick" is not something that I believe that D/W excel at above and beyond the rest of the ice dance field. Being able to skate fast does not necessarily carry over into the feeling that the Finnstep should have, and there are teams that I feel are better suited to the character of the Finnstep (I am not trying to predict who will be the best team technically).

None of them will be as good at it as R/K anyway.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
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ITA that none of them will be as good at it as R&K :love:

The point I was making is that I don't think D&W will be particularly deficient & behind compared to the rest of the teams at light and joyous, not that they would necessarily be miles ahead of them either.

IMO, the worst choice for D&W would have been Tango Romantica, which would be the best choice for I&K and V&M, not the Finnstep.
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
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IMO, the worst choice for D&W would have been Tango Romantica, which would be the best choice for I&K and V&M, not the Finnstep.

Interesting... I recall reading that Marina lobbied for the Tango Romantica... on the justification that it was more difficult. In any event, I think it will be more uplifting and entertaining to watch than the tango, and I don't expect any of the upper tier teams to have any real problem with it.

I'm much more interested in the remainder of the dance they'll all be doing... how will they incorporte "light-hearted" twizzles, lifts, spins, and footwork? Who'll do something completely out of the box... like dancing the polka to ballet? I can't wait to see the inventiveness!
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
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I can't either :love:

I loved the original of the Finnstep, and I liked the CD in 2009. I'm looking forward to it!
 
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