Yuzuru Hanyu's progress under Orser | Golden Skate

Yuzuru Hanyu's progress under Orser

jjane45

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 23, 2009
Heading into 4CC and Worlds, how do you view Yuzuru Hanyu's coaching change to Brian Orser? What are the good changes and what are not so good? Any surprises? (Technically? Artistically? Skating skills? Posture? Stamina? Choreography? Costumes? Coach-skater relationship? Training environment? Political influence?...)
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
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Well, I can't say I like his LP costume with the big cross on it, but I have no idea whether his coach or choreographer had anything to do with that? Does anyone else know?

I don't think it is that flattering.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Heading into 4CC and Worlds, how do you view Yuzuru Hanyu's coaching change to Brian Orser? What are the good changes and what are not so good? Any surprises? (Technically? Artistically? Skating skills? Posture? Stamina? Choreography? Costumes? Coach-skater relationship? Training environment? Political influence?...)

Orser considers Javier the favourite for the OGM, for which he is certainly a contender, as things stand... but I think Hanyu will win Worlds this year. I think technically Orser has helped Hanyu develop speed, consistency, etc. and skating with Javier probably pushes Hanyu to maximize his jump content and continually go for 4S. I'm interested in seeing if Hanyu lands his 4S at 4CC... he's been so close.
 

Kalina

On the Ice
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Jul 30, 2012
Well, I can't say I like his LP costume with the big cross on it, but I have no idea whether his coach or choreographer had anything to do with that? Does anyone else know?

I don't think it is that flattering.

I doubt Orser had any say in his costumes :biggrin:
His mom has always made them for him, and for a few of them (this one, and a couple from when he was little at least) she appears to have gotten inspiration from Johnny Weir's costumes. In particular, this season's FS costume looks very similar to Weir's Ave Maria costume. I don't know if it was her idea or if he asked her to make it like that.
Johnny also designed his free skate costume for his first senior season (2010-2011).
 

Icey

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 28, 2012
he landed a 4s at Finlandia Trophy with a + goe
 
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figureskate

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 7, 2011
I think that Orser did a great job in defining Yuzuru's strategy. He focused on the short program that always gives him a huge advantage on other skaters, so that he can approach the free skate in a more relaxed way. I don't consider his free as good in terms as his short for transitions and interpretation (or maybe it's just me loving anything Buttle does as a choreographer) but he can really collect technical points even if the quads are not perfect with his amazing triple axels both in the second half of the program
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
I'm glad to hear that Orser is doing so well in refining the skills of two of the world's best men. Now no one can say that YuNa was a fluke. Obviously Orser is bringing a lot to the table. Does anyone know what his approach is? He sounds like a great strategist. What kind of a technical teacher is he?

Golly, if he ends up with one or two medalists in the next Olympics, skaters will be beating down the doors of Canada to work with him.

I'm not sure I ever knew this, but what was his effect on Christina Gao? I know she left to go to Harvard, but what was her progress while she trained with Brian?
 
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MaiKatze

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Joined
Feb 4, 2012
Orser considers Javier the favourite for the OGM, for which he is certainly a contender, as things stand...

Did he really say this? In an interview? I also consider Javier a likely candidate, but I wonder if this was the wisest thing to say as Yuzurus coach. :confused:
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
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Country
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I'm not sure I ever knew this, but what was his effect on Christina Gao? I know she left to go to Harvard, but what was her progress while she trained with Brian?

Not super amazing. She seems to be doing much better with Mark Mitchell & PeterJohansson at Skating Club of Boston. Her axel takeoff has improved, and she skated very well at 3 out of her 4 outings this year, and made the GPF in the 6th place. Considering this is a girl who was sent to Jr. Worlds and didn't medal, that's quite a step.

Like Adam Rippon left Orser and has occasionally landed a 3A with Arutunian and seems happier.

All coaches are more successful with some skaters than others. Brian may be a better shine & polish guy than a basic skills improver, something Rippon & Gao needed, and Yuna Kim didn't need. Or they may just not have gotten along with each other.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Jan 25, 2013
Did he really say this? In an interview? I also consider Javier a likely candidate, but I wonder if this was the wisest thing to say as Yuzurus coach. :confused:

This was said in person, actually (some time this past fall). I'd mentioned that Yuzuru's a fantastic talent and I think he'll win the Olympics, and he then said that's true but he actually thinks Javier will win. I was expecting him to be diplomatic about it so it was a bit surprising, seeing as how he still coaches both of them, but he was praiseworthy of both and was probably just saying who he thought would win as a general statement. And Javier's technical showings have certainly put weight behind those assertions. I don't think Brian meant it to take sides or create tension... everyone already knows that he coaches two OGM contenders and I'm sure if there was legitimate infighting, one of them would have switched by now. In fact, I think it is helping them push each other, a la V/M and D/W. It also helps that I'd consider Yuzu as more of an artist and Javier to be a strong jumper, and he's very fortunate to coach two wonderful talents (as they are fortunate to have him coaching them).
 

Serious Business

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Jan 7, 2011
Well, one thing's for sure: anybody who's worried Yuzuru may have regressed this season from having to train abroad with a new coach can rest easy for now. Yuzuru's had a great season. He kept up the upward trajectory his World bronze promised, broke the short program scoring record, and won the Japanese senior nationals for the first time. Things seem to be working great with this new coaching arrangement!

And a special shoutout to the very fruitful team-up of Yuzuru and Jeffrey Buttle. The short program Buttle crafted for Yuzuru broke all those scoring records and is a stylistic breakthrough for the skater as well. Yuzuru is also the only skater I know of who's doing two jumping passes after the halfway mark in the short program, taking advantage of the new bonus multiplier that's been introduced this season. He earns more points on his jumps in the SP than any other skater this season when he executes, and Yuzuru executes almost every time. Buttle is an ISU judge and probably one of the best COP strategists in the sport. I can't imagine a better client for Buttle's expertise than Yuzuru. Yuzuru is capable of landing those jumps at any point in a program (after all, this is a skater who regularly lands a quad toe/3axel sequence in exhibitions), the flexibility to do a variety of spin positions, and a decent grasp of footwork. In the free skate, where stamina may be more of a problem, especially for the asthmatic Yuzuru, such ambitions may have to be dialed back a bit. But in the SP, Buttle and Yuzuru have free rein to pump out every last point from the COP, and they have.
 

Elsa G

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 24, 2010
Thank you jjane45 for this thread!
Now we can talk rationally about the yuzu's achievement this season.I thought it would be more interesting if we have a thread talk about both Hanyu's and Javier's progress under Orser.
Anyway,since I already talked about the good changes on uber thread.Here are some negative thoughts.
Yuzu cann't communicate well with his coach team since he couldn't speak english fluently.He should learn to get over the language barrier asap before sochi.
I want so badly to see his posture improve under wilson's help,it failed me completely:cry:.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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Sep 14, 2008
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Hanyu has regressed artistically with Orser, a lot. In the Long Program anyway.

I find that quite typical of Orser. He's very good at giving students technical strength and consistency, and "classy" programs, but he doesn't seem to care that much about truly inspired programs.

Of course, I do think Javier Fernadez has the best program of the year. So it worked that time. :laugh:
 

jjane45

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 23, 2009
I think this season is a huge step forward for Yuzuru. While the bronze medal at 2012 Worlds was kind of a surprise, at this moment he really is a top contender.

There is no doubt that he is getting much better training facilities. As a private club without hockey, Cricket provides nearly unlimited ice time (huge contrast to his old rink) and many off-ice choices. Orser arguably also has stronger political influence.

In a recent TV documentary it was mentioned that Yuzuru believes multiple types of quads are needed for him to win, hence the decision to train with Orser. Once in Canada, it turned out Orser pushed for his skating skills the most. (17:25 in the movie) I thought it's very wise as Yuzuru is competing against top PCS guys like Dai and Patrick. Quite curious how much he'll improve in this area going into Sochi.

I am not sure what to say about his stamina. Guess 4CC and Worlds will tell how well Orser's team is managing it. Plus a newly reworked FS.


I doubt Orser had any say in his costumes :biggrin:

That's what I hear too. I liked the SP costume, wonder who picked that one :)


Yuzu can't communicate well with his coach team since he couldn't speak english fluently.He should learn to get over the language barrier asap before sochi.

I don't understand why his English is still that bad :( Yes he is physically exhausted all the time but he is so young!!
 
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Elsa G

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 24, 2010
I don't understand why his English is still that bad :( Yes he is physically exhausted all the time but he is so young!!
He said when he was about 15 that he is good at math,bad at grammer and English.I guess that explain why he can only spitting out disconnected words but no complete sentence so far:unsure:.
 

jjane45

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 23, 2009
Hanyu has regressed artistically with Orser, a lot. In the Long Program anyway.

In the same TV documentary mentioned above, at 20:30 Orser said the following:

He is going from a young man to a man, and his skating will mature, and I think that's we need to work on the most, just the maturity of his skating, and that has to be natural.

Maybe it's an experiment to bring out the subtle side of him by controlling his emotions.

Although it's a huge change, if not a let down, from the dramatic Romeo & Juliet last season.


He said when he was about 15 that he is good at math,bad at grammer and English.I guess that explain why he can only spitting out disconnected words but no complete sentence so far:unsure:.

He is still a kid! Kids learn languages lightning fast!
 
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Li'Kitsu

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
jjane45 said:
He is still a kid! Kids learn languages lightning fast!

He's 18 :unsure:

This kind of learning, where you pretty much absorp everything you hear like nothing, ends way earlier than 18. Little children can do that. I'm not too sure when exactly that ends, but I think it was more in the 12-years-old range.
Besides that, some people just don't have it with languages that much (I like how he's rather good in math! :laugh: )

Hanyu already has a pretty tough schedule, so maybe learning English will still take some time. He seems to be fine comunicating with Fernandez though.

I like how Orser focused on Hanyu's basic skating skills. I don't see any artistical regression at all, it's just that his FS this year doesn't really convince me... but if you look at his SP, it's not as if the boy wasn't capable anymore. With Kozuka not on the team, I'd say Hanyu has the best SP for worlds this year - with Fernandez having the best FS. So Team Borser is doing pretty well, obviously.

Besides, I really like the relationship between Orser and Hanyus one and only true coach, Winnieh the Pooh! :biggrin: Before, Orser was laughing about the Pooh bear, now he has to hold it while Yuzuru skates.
And Fernandez has a Mickey Mouse tissue box now. It's really lovely to see how Fernandez and Hanyu get along.
 

Kalina

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 30, 2012
He's 18 :unsure:

This kind of learning, where you pretty much absorp everything you hear like nothing, ends way earlier than 18. Little children can do that. I'm not too sure when exactly that ends, but I think it was more in the 12-years-old range.
Besides that, some people just don't have it with languages that much (I like how he's rather good in math! :laugh: )

Yes, we are much more receptive to learning new languages when we are prepubertal.
And it is much more difficult for Japanese people to learn English than it would be for someone who comes from one of the main Indoeuropean languages. There are no similarities in the lexicon, and from a linguistic typology point of view, there are many differences -- most notably, English is a SVO language, Japanese a SOV language. German, for example, being a SOV language as well is much closer to how Japanese constructs sentences.
He'll learn eventually, but it will take time. If he'd gone to school in Canada it would have been much easier, I don't think there are too many chances of practicing English at the rink. Having someone teaching him, even if just for one hour a week, would be helpful, imo.
 

let`s talk

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
Now we can talk rationally about the yuzu's achievement this season.
Lol! The title of this thread is sooo biased that can suggest nothing rational apriori. Because everyone who is not singing arias to Orser for the kid's progress technically will be posting offtopic. So, by the title it's supposed to be one more Cricket Club ubers thread, pretty much the same as Yuzu fan thread has become. Perhaps it's precisely the idea of "rational" for Orser ubers. But I am not the one. With Orser Hanyu regressed in all skating aspects and grossly progressed only in one- Politics/Corruption/Scum (PCS). Actually Hanyu is not the first Orser guy in it but that's beside the point. His stamina looks way worn and weak that doesn't allow him to finish FS without running out of gas. As for jumps I am not buying that it's Orser's work. Yuzu already had 4T when he came to Toronto and nobody knows if he could become the same way more consistent in it under Abe. The 4S that Orser presumably gave him goes from two feet and therefore looks quite ugly. Hanyu still doesn't have any quad combo while all top skaters actually have. His lines and postures, that used to be of a young tree, I mean not super "fixed" but alive and vibrating, got turned into a teen Quasimodo hunchbacked in spins (those got slower too) and round-shouldered in exits, steps, etc. I already posted these links on another thread, here is his sitspin in R&J: www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFECk7AFMRo&t=5m17s and here in the current FP: www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHXt4d6itcY&t=5m12s Is it progressed? Where? How about the exit from 3A here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYkGYMYW69c&t=2m24s and this young-eagle-like: www.youtube.com/watch?v=wICH1Jpsq8M&t=0m06s . His SP is a Comic Blues and FS is skating elements. About private life, Yuzu had about 40 shows in summer before Orser, last season Orser allowed him to do less than.. 20? And therefore Yuzu earned twice less. In the recent interview with Orser to Russian media he sounded that Hanyu is homesick. And I actually tend to believe it. But the worst and the most serious damage that was done to Hanyu is his PR image of a grossly overscored skater. Someone here mentioned his records in SP and win at JN? His records in SP made people speak about giving two separate medals for these two segments and calculate a 3-fall cusion in FS after such wins in SP. If these record scores would be considered as fair by public, such negativity wouldn't come up. JN? Then how did it happen that the winner of JN has more than twice less views on the same youtube channel than dejure a silver guy? Because that is not how a JN champion greeted in K&C, don't listen to Orser's noise, listen to the public: www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpB5jaiA27s&t=8m56s Yeah, that's better than this: www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuJfGH4bFTM&t=7m55s but J-audience don't boo. You want to know how the true winners are treated? Try here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtoUoiorSQ8&t=8m45s or here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBJtNXvyWbg&t=6m10s

Hanyu should get free and independent, get his own agent, earn fair medals and have a long outstanding career like Dai or Plu. Otherwise he will end up in Evan/Chan/Sarah/Sale "Hall of Fame".
Orser considers Javier the favourite for the OGM...
This was said in person, actually (some time this past fall).
Seriously? Oh.. You should make a phone call to JSF. They are wearing their butts in promoting the guy left and right: Fuji One with starting the series of progs right on Feb 11, i.e. when 4CC are over, about JN but under the title "Hanyu, 13-17yo" as if Mura and Dai were not even there. Number Feb issue (announced already) with Hanyu on the cover. As if they all know in advance who 4CC winner is. What kind of true athlete would want to get such favors? The most hillarious part is there are fans who actually wish the kid such fate. You are saying that Orser is betting on another guy. That's funny. I hope Hashimoto is reading this. :laugh:
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Yes, we are much more receptive to learning new languages when we are prepubertal.
And it is much more difficult for Japanese people to learn English than it would be for someone who comes from one of the main Indoeuropean languages. There are no similarities in the lexicon, and from a linguistic typology point of view, there are many differences -- most notably, English is a SVO language, Japanese a SOV language. German, for example, being a SOV language as well is much closer to how Japanese constructs sentences.
He'll learn eventually, but it will take time. If he'd gone to school in Canada it would have been much easier, I don't think there are too many chances of practicing English at the rink. Having someone teaching him, even if just for one hour a week, would be helpful, imo.

I imagine that it's far more of a challenge to learn a language outside of one's linguistic family--even a different writing system. I've always stayed inside the group of Indo-European languages and never even ventured outside the Roman alphabet. A friend of mine was learning Japanese (she's over forty) and enjoying it, but I don't know how conversational she got.

The Japanese skater who amazes me in this regard is Yuka Sato, who I think started learning English when she was older than Hanyu. (I don't get the impression she studied it as a child, but I could be wrong.) She says she learned a lot of it from watching movies, as I recall. I'm sure her guy, Jason Dunjen, was a bit of help as well, of course. I wonder whether he's learned any Japanese. Yuka's English was gorgeous from the first time I heard her speak it: slow and deliberate cadence but well constructed sentences, nicely chosen wording.

I get the impression that both Katia Gordeyeva and Ilia Kulik have a facility for learning languages. Katia spoke just a few words during the 1988 Calgary Olympics, during the Soviet era, but she became pretty fluent once she and Sergei moved to the U.S., and in interviews, she always spoke for the pair; I never heard Sergei open his mouth on camera. In contrast to Sergei, Ilia was fluent from the first interview I ever heard with him.
 
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