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Thread: Yuzuru Hanyu's progress under Orser

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    His stamina looks way worn and weak that doesn't allow him to finish FS without running out of gas.
    Doesn't Hanyu has asthma? Isn't that the cause of him running out of gas at the end of his programs.

    As for the rest of your post, if Hanyu is so much more inferior a skater under Orser, why are his scores going through the roof? One would think his scores would be going down, not up if what you say is true. Cherry picking individual elements of a program from one event to another and saying it was better here or there, proves little. A skater might have a better spin at one event than another, or a better jump, but it's the overall scoring and placements that matter and in that regard, Hanyu has show great improvement over past years.

  2. #47
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    There's also something called REPUTATION, which you always so casually dismiss (except when you want to use it within your own argument).

    Hanyu should have won Cup of China last season and he should have won the GPF last season. He didn't because he was still considered a "newbie". He would have scored at least 15 points higher for those exact same performances this season, solely because he's now actually considered one of the absolute best in the World, instead of "just" being one of the absolute best in the World.

    The scoring system means very little. It's all about how the judges want to perceive someone and/or are TOLD to perceive someone.

  3. #48
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    Yes, what you call "reputation", I call speed, flow and ice coverage, all of which have improved immensely under Orser. All of that work on stroking, extra run-throughs, and more stroking, stroking, stroking to build up strength and stamina.

    When "Chanflation" started, it was the year that Patrick took his speed, flow and ice-coverage to a whole other level, and moment I saw it, I knew his PCS would go through the roof and people would complain he was overmarked. Plushenko used to have that too, effortless speed and power, as did Yagudin.

    I haven't seen Hanyu live to comment as to whether or not he has achieved that level this season or not, but from his scores, I think he has, in the SP at least.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady View Post
    Yes, what you call "reputation", I call speed, flow and ice coverage, all of which have improved immensely under Orser.
    He was just as fast and flowing in his SP last season as he was this season.

    What has improved with Hanyu under Orser is holding his jump landings. His stamina has also improved, which gives him better speed and flow later in the LP, but it doesn't mean his peak abilities in those areas have necessarily improved much (and I don't say that a bad thing because he was already great). As far as the so-called "stamina improvement" goes, though, a lot of that is really just the choreography of his LP this season. He had a much more demanding LP last season, where he output so much raw energy and full-body movement. His program this season is more tame, so of course he's going to have more energy later in the program since he isn't using as much energy earlier in the program!!!

    So, yes, a large amount of Hanyu's higher scores these season are from REPUTATION (along with general scoring inflation).

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    Late about this but the English taught in Japanese schools is usually just taught to pass tests, the tests are all written tests so...

    I was sad when Yuzuru left his old coach and there are a few reasons I don't like Orser but he's really done well this season. I know a lot of people dislike his programs but I love his SP and to me his FS isn't any worse than his ones from the last couple of seasons which I also was not too fond of. So far this coaching change looks like a really good idea, I just hope he keeps improving right up to the Olympics and beyond.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    He was just as fast and flowing in his SP last season as he was this season.
    I just watched his SP from last year back to back with this season's SP and the difference in his performance, his commitment to the program, and yes, his speed and flow are just incredible. He was so stiff in the upper body a year ago, and now his whole body is engaged in the performance. He had speed last year, this year he has effortless speed.

    When I first saw Hanyu's SP score from Skate America, I went and looked at the program to see what he could possible have done to merit a score that high, and when I watched the skate, it was a huge WOW!!! and yes, that would get a score just that high.

    Whenever someone tells me that a skater is scored on "reputation" or lack thereof, it is usually because of basic skating, speed, flow, and what used to be called "ease of movement". Some of this, Hanyu had last year, and some of it is recently acquired. You call it reputation, but I see the improvement in the skating skills and overall level of performance and call it "mastery". Hanyu did not have that last season, and he doesn't have it in the LP, but he sure has got it in the short.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Hanyu has regressed artistically with Orser, a lot. In the Long Program anyway.

    I find that quite typical of Orser. He's very good at giving students technical strength and consistency, and "classy" programs, but he doesn't seem to care that much about truly inspired programs.

    Of course, I do think Javier Fernadez has the best program of the year. So it worked that time.
    a) If I recall, you found Hanyu's LP one of the best ever? So is it true regression or merely not hitting that peak two years running?

    b) Are you referring to Fernandez's Chaplin?

  8. #53
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    For me, speed =/= always good. I think Hanyu's problem wasn't a lack of speed but rather he had too much of it. I always felt that Hanyu in past seasons were too frantic (though I absolutely loved his programs). He tended to go 150 percent when he didn't have to. Combined with his asthma, that's why we saw the end-of-skate meltdowns in the past.

    If you think Hanyu with this year's FS is awful as far as stamina, could you imagine Hanyu circa 2011/2012 trying to do that same program? It's a testament to Orser's training plan that the has been able to not only improve his stamina but improve it to the point where he can do much more difficult programs as the season goes on. I feel Orser has done a good job refining his skating and teaching him how to garner his energy so he doesn't run out of it by the 3 minute mark.

    I think someone pointed above that Orser is more of a polish and build coach. I agree. If you look at those who have been successful under him so far -- Yuna, Javier and Yuzuru -- it's clear that he does a good job building the skills. But I agree he's probably not the coach to build basic skills from.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    For me, speed =/= always good. I think Hanyu's problem wasn't a lack of speed but rather he had too much of it. I always felt that Hanyu in past seasons were too frantic (though I absolutely loved his programs). He tended to go 150 percent when he didn't have to. Combined with his asthma, that's why we saw the end-of-skate meltdowns in the past.

    If you think Hanyu with this year's FS is awful as far as stamina, could you imagine Hanyu circa 2011/2012 trying to do that same program? It's a testament to Orser's training plan that the has been able to not only improve his stamina but improve it to the point where he can do much more difficult programs as the season goes on. I feel Orser has done a good job refining his skating and teaching him how to garner his energy so he doesn't run out of it by the 3 minute mark.

    I think someone pointed above that Orser is more of a polish and build coach. I agree. If you look at those who have been successful under him so far -- Yuna, Javier and Yuzuru -- it's clear that he does a good job building the skills. But I agree he's probably not the coach to build basic skills from.

    Late to the thread, but I really agree with this. And as much as his LP wowed me last year at worlds, I'm really appreciating what he is doing this year with his LP - there is a refinement and kind of control, or maybe controlled calm that I think Mrs. P is pointing to that I too see.

    And I would add that his SP this year is really amazing - there's much to gush about, but that timing of that 3axel and his height and distance on it (most of the time), simply takes my breath away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jjane45 View Post
    I am seriously curious what Orser's team does to improve his strength / endurance. Stamina issue really is a huge roadblock. At practices Yuzuru seems to be wearing this medical device that monitors his heart rates?
    In Cricket Club,yuzu began his off-ice training which he didn't do much when he was in sendai.in 10-11 season,he told reporter that his father helped me with physical fitness training.
    when he was 15,he told the journalist he don't want to do off-ice training bcz he want to grow more inches.I find this web page which summarise the program:
    http://off-ice-training.com/
    Programs include:
    * General strength
    * Dynamic strength (power)
    * Core strength (stabilization)
    * Flexibility
    * Quickness (speed & agility)
    * Fitness/postural assesments
    Mostly are strength and power training which require a lot of muscel exercise.Too much weight training can prevent teenage from growing taller.I think now is a good time to do the training.
    I remember Orser told adam to do more off-ice training but adam didn't agree.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjane45 View Post
    English is not rocket science, and at this young age he can improve fast if prioritized properly. Cute chart with difficulty rating for languages.

    And it's more like concern than amazement. When he trains in Japan it would not be a problem at all. Working with Orser's team however, effective communication is crucial to avoid misunderstanding, save precious training time, reduce homesickness, and get more out of the coaching.

    Too shy to talk? Somehow to me he always came across as the playful kind who fools around with skaters from all countries. And I thought he is close to Javier? Oh wait fooling around does not necessarily involve much talking...
    Japanese and English are such completely different languages that English is NOT easy for a native Japanese speaker. On top of that, English is not taught very well in Japan. They teach reading, writing and grammar, but there are very few native speakers in high schools, so Japanese kids only understand English pronounced by other Japanese who were taught by other Japanese. And on top of that, Japanese culture comes into play here. Japanese people are inherently perfectionist (and especially figure skaters!) as well as shy, and nobody wants to make a mistake. A Japanese person who is not good at foreign languages would never want to have to speak in that foreign language for fear of saying something that comes out wrong or makes him/her look stupid. Let the boy focus on his amazing jumps and gorgeous skating and be interviewed in his own language, just like all the English-speaking skaters are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady View Post
    I just watched his SP from last year back to back with this season's SP and the difference in his performance, his commitment to the program, and yes, his speed and flow are just incredible. He was so stiff in the upper body a year ago, and now his whole body is engaged in the performance. He had speed last year, this year he has effortless speed.

    When I first saw Hanyu's SP score from Skate America, I went and looked at the program to see what he could possible have done to merit a score that high, and when I watched the skate, it was a huge WOW!!! and yes, that would get a score just that high.

    Whenever someone tells me that a skater is scored on "reputation" or lack thereof, it is usually because of basic skating, speed, flow, and what used to be called "ease of movement". Some of this, Hanyu had last year, and some of it is recently acquired. You call it reputation, but I see the improvement in the skating skills and overall level of performance and call it "mastery". Hanyu did not have that last season, and he doesn't have it in the LP, but he sure has got it in the short.
    I absolutely agree. The more you understand about skating, the more you can see how Yuzuru earned that SP score. He did a counter into triple axel, seamlessly transitioning into connecting moves on the landing. I had to watch that at least 3 times just to absorb it! And the whole program was full of difficult details like that, made to look completely effortless. He's a real talent and I can't wait to watch him over the next few years!
    Last edited by vlaurend; 02-06-2013 at 10:55 PM.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady View Post
    I just watched his SP from last year back to back with this season's SP and the difference in his performance, his commitment to the program, and yes, his speed and flow are just incredible.
    I find this all to be wrong. You're just telling yourself something because you have to believe in the scores + Canadian coach, and you refuse to see the reality of the situation.

    Commitment to the program has improved??? Just nonsense. This is wonderful:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WNYadk16U8

    I see more commitment there. The spins in his programs this year feel more like ticking off the boxes, whereas last season he put his heart and soul into them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady View Post
    He was so stiff in the upper body a year ago, and now his whole body is engaged in the performance. He had speed last year, this year he has effortless speed.
    This is just not true. There was SO much full-body movement going on with his performances last year. How was his upper body stiff? And how are you insinuating his speed last year was labored? He wasn't scratching edges across the ice. Perhaps he has improved in that area a bit this year but it's minimal. He had it already and you're just ignoring it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady View Post
    You call it reputation, but I see the improvement in the skating skills and overall level of performance and call it "mastery". Hanyu did not have that last season, and he doesn't have it in the LP, but he sure has got it in the short.
    His LP last season was absolutely masterful. Almost nobody else in the World could bring his combination of fire and sensitivity and command of the ice, along with all of the transitions and huge jumps and spins/footwork. He did twizzles in sit-spin position and out of leaps. He didn't miss a Triple Axel all season long. People were gushing about his level of performance. Everyone remarked on it and pretty much the only people who denied it were Chan ubers. But now the Chan ubers can't deny it without looking stupid, since Hanyu is beating him and breaking records.

    Hanyu certainly had "it" in the SP last season too, but just tended to make silly mistakes in that part of the competition.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    a) If I recall, you found Hanyu's LP one of the best ever? So is it true regression or merely not hitting that peak two years running?
    I think it's a regression because, aside from his LP last year simply being superior, I actively see his coach making him focus less on true performance and more on technicality.

    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    b) Are you referring to Fernandez's Chaplin?
    Of course! His performance at Europeans is all-time best level, both technically and artistically (a couple of the spins and the leveled footwork sequence still have some annoying CoP drawbacks, though).
    Last edited by Blades of Passion; 02-06-2013 at 11:21 PM.

  14. #59
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    I like what Orser brings out of his students, which is enhanced performance that is both precise yet classy, as some have already mentioned. I think Orser has a tendency to "perform" for the cameras during competitions and he clearly loves the attention (especially during Yuna's peak, now perhaps not as much). However, it doesn't change the fact that generally skaters' execution really improves when he starts coaching them.

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    1. What do you mean when you say technicality? After all, this is a skater who had massive early season performance issues.

    2. I love that you say of course as if I can guess your opinion :D

    3. I have to admit I never cared for his programs last season (so yes, this Chan uber is guilty), but I don't think you can argue against his commitment to his programs/what he was selling in the 11/12 season. His last step sequence at Worlds was done on sheer commitment and will.

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