Sochi Olympics will test gay rights

CanadianSkaterGuy · Feb 13, 2013

gmyers said:
Pride houses are Vancouver and London and never existed before then. Now they have to be in every village or it's extreme hate of gays?

There's a difference, Russia isn't having a Pride House because there is an extreme hate of gays... it's not like it's for financial or space reasons. If Canada or London didn't have a Pride House, it wouldn't be because they're homophobic. As menial as this is to many people, this is arguably a direct reflection of how LGBT athletes may be treated in Sochi. People are like "it's just a house", but really it represents a lot more than just a house.

bestskate8 · Feb 13, 2013

Russia is far behind in some aspects. Before anyone start to criticizes Russia, and never been there, they need to travel to Russia and visit small villages far east, may be then you will get clear picture why ALL THIS is not welcomed in Russia right now.
Most Russian population live in a small towns and many of them don’t even have a gas and water in their homes. Some people there don’t even know those movements even exist, many people are religious and have strong cultural rules, orthodox, muslin and buddhism.
So please don’t measure your boots on someone’s feet. Let Russian people to come to understanding on their own, give them some time.
If anyone really cares about rights, why not care about right to have gas, water, sewer, roads in 21 centure

gmyers · Feb 13, 2013

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
There's a difference, Russia isn't having a Pride House because there is an extreme hate of gays... it's not like it's for financial or space reasons. If Canada or London didn't have a Pride House, it wouldn't be because they're homophobic. As menial as this is to many people, this is arguably a direct reflection of how LGBT athletes may be treated in Sochi. People are like "it's just a house", but really it represents a lot more than just a house.

But there are almost always some gay athletes in Russia because they host so many events of so many different kinds of sports! seems like people are saying because there were pride houses in London And Vancouver that those were the only events in history that were truly welcoming to all. Seems like this is becoming the biggest issue of the games aside from the weather and just like pussy riot and invasion of Georgia become he latest tool for the boycott or change location movements. they want the games moved to Vancouver or boycotted

gmyers · Feb 13, 2013

bestskate8 said:
Russia is far behind in some aspects. Before anyone start to criticizes Russia, and never been there, they need to travel to Russia and visit small villages far east, may be then you will get clear picture why ALL THIS is not welcomed in Russia right now.
Most Russian population live in a small towns and many of them don’t even have a gas and water in their homes. Some people there don’t even know those movements even exist, many people are religious and have strong cultural rules, orthodox, muslin and buddhism.
So please don’t measure your boots on someone’s feet. Let Russian people to come to understanding on their own, give them some time.
If anyone really cares about rights, why not care about right to have gas, water, sewer, roads in 21 centure

this really way overstates the number of people who live like it was the 1800's. It's not most at all and hasn't been most in 100 years

CanadianSkaterGuy · Feb 13, 2013

gmyers said:
But there are almost always some gay athletes in Russia because they host so many events of so many different kinds of sports! seems like people are saying because there were pride houses in London And Vancouver that those were the only events in history that were truly welcoming to all. Seems like this is becoming the biggest issue of the games aside from the weather and just like pussy riot and invasion of Georgia become he latest tool for the boycott or change location movements. they want the games moved to Vancouver or boycotted

I disagree. If Netherlands or Spain had an Olympics and they decided not to have a Pride House, it wouldn't be as much of an issue, since those places aren't comparatively homophobic. The lack of a Pride House is due to homophobia in Russia. That there are gay athletes in Russian sports is negligible (since obviously there are LGBT people everywhere). I don't think it should merit a change of location, but it is a problem that LGBT individuals are being treated this way in something that's supposed to be as inclusive as the Olympics. If an athlete wins a gold and decides to publicly kiss their partner in celebration, it can be considered an offense. Whereas if a straight athlete does the same, it won't be an issue. It's not a reason to boycott the Games, a lack of a Pride House, but imagine being told that "keep that gay stuff under wraps".

Could you imagine the backlash if they decided not to incorporate religious facilities like mosques in the Olympic village and then told Muslim athletes, "oh, mosques were more of a Canada/London thing... we're all orthodox christians here and we don't want any public displays of that Islamic stuff, so go worship in your hotel room... now, it's okay if you're Muslim, as long as you keep it under wraps".

The good thing, of course, is that stuff like this draws attention to the issue of how LGBT people are treated in Russia, which opens itself to discussion and hopefully greater understanding of how discrimination disenfranchises LGBT people.

There's nothing wrong with not having a Pride House... there is something wrong with not having a Pride House in order to uphold an anti-gay sentiment.

Mathman · Feb 13, 2013

Here is an explanation by the head of the Duma's committee on family, women, and children, explaining why the legislation currently before the Duma is not really anti-gay. (The first reading of the bill passed 388 to 1).

http://english.ruvr.ru/radio_broadcast/25950828/103558747.html

Riemann · Feb 14, 2013

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
There's a difference, Russia isn't having a Pride House because there is an extreme hate of gays... it's not like it's for financial or space reasons. If Canada or London didn't have a Pride House, it wouldn't be because they're homophobic. As menial as this is to many people, this is arguably a direct reflection of how LGBT athletes may be treated in Sochi. People are like "it's just a house", but really it represents a lot more than just a house.

Well said.

Riemann · Feb 14, 2013

TonyaHardlyEver said:
For the love of God! I am gay as a goose but I am sooo sick of hearing about Equality and Gay Rights in every aspect of our day to day lives! Can we not even enjoy The Olympics without making it a platform for politics? It's ok to be ourselves and express ourselves freely but one doesn't have to act like a complete clown 24/7 like Weir. It seems he is an attention seeker that worries more about his image than his skating skills. Rudy Galindo was eccentric and flamboyant but he knew when to behave. Gay or not people who act like court jesters will get on anyone's nerves after a while.

When the discrimination ends, then we can stop talking about it.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Feb 14, 2013

Mathman said:
Here is an explanation by the head of the Duma's committee on family, women, and children, explaining why the legislation currently before the Duma is not really anti-gay. (The first reading of the bill passed 388 to 1).

http://english.ruvr.ru/radio_broadcast/25950828/103558747.html

This is really just polishing a turd, excuse my French. Many kids are LGBT and this law says that justifying and reasoning homosexuality will be prohibited. So telling a kid it's okay if they're gay or have gay tendencies, or telling a kid it's okay if an adult is gay, or okay if an adult has a same-sex partner is prohibited. I'm so sick of this "It's meant to protect the children" shtick. If anything it's laws like these that drive kids to suicide and depression, because not only are they ostracized but it's illegal for anyone to offer them support and reassurance that there's nothing wrong with them.

Mathman · Feb 14, 2013

As I understand the justification for the legislation, it is to protect children from roving bands of gay people who want to propagandize them into becoming gay. Sort of like those roving bands of gypsies who kidnap children and make them live in brightly painted wagons.

IndieBoi · Feb 14, 2013

Mathman said:
As I understand the justification for the legislation, it is to protect children from roving bands of gay people who want to propagandize them into becoming gay. Sort of like those roving bands of gypsies who kidnap children and make them live in brightly painted wagons.

Are you for real??

If only somebody would've propagandized me into becoming straight... oh wait, there was church (among others).

Mathman · Feb 14, 2013

^ Of course I am not "for real." Gypsies kidnapping children and making them live in painted wagons?

Satire, parody. Deliberately exaggerating the bad guys' position in order to hold up to the light how ridiculous it is.

Edited to add: Although in this case I didn't have to exaggerate too much to make the sponsors of this bill look ridiculous.

The workgroup (that Duma committee chairman Mizulina) is heading is currently refining the bill which aims to ban gay propaganda...

IndieBoi · Feb 14, 2013

My bad... it's just that some people would actually raise ridiculous arguments around this topic from polygamy, incest to bestiality etc. (for real!) that such gypsy reference would actually be considered mild.

let`s talk · Feb 15, 2013

bestskate8 said:
Russia is far behind in some aspects. Before anyone start to criticizes Russia, and never been there, they need to travel to Russia and visit small villages far east, may be then you will get clear picture why ALL THIS is not welcomed in Russia right now.
Most Russian population live in a small towns and many of them don’t even have a gas and water in their homes. Some people there don’t even know those movements even exist, many people are religious and have strong cultural rules, orthodox, muslin and buddhism.
So please don’t measure your boots on someone’s feet. Let Russian people to come to understanding on their own, give them some time.
If anyone really cares about rights, why not care about right to have gas, water, sewer, roads in 21 centure

Charming! I could understand if someone who they call "white trash" would be ranting such stuff in his trailer park. But I don't get when it comes from people who have Google. Or maybe I expect too much from them and I should give them some time to learn how to use it. 75% of the R-population is urban who get bills for gas and water. No gas in a gas empire? Oh well. :laugh:

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
The lack of a Pride House is due to homophobia in Russia.

How do you know? Have you been there or made some research? Clearly not. The lack of a pride house is due to the constitutional demand that sets equal rights for all sex groups. If they allow to open such house for gays, they will have to allow it for straight people, transgenders, etc. The Olympic village would be too 'colorful' in this case and less focused on sport. Why do you even need Pride House in the first place? Why not to live in comfort with yourself and enjoy what you are without the necessity to shout about your sex preferences on each corner. Any explanations? FYI after decriminalization of homosexual acts in 1993 there were no laws on banning whatever gay stuff, nothing at all. Care to ask yourself why did they show up almost 15-20 years later after decriminalization of homosexuality? What provoke the society to introduce such laws? Try again.

Pepe Nero · Feb 15, 2013

Mathman said:
As I understand the justification for the legislation, it is to protect children from roving bands of gay people who want to propagandize them into becoming gay. Sort of like those roving bands of gypsies who kidnap children and make them live in brightly painted wagons.

Thanks, Mathman, for injecting some humor into this discussion. It genuinely made me laugh, in the midst of deliberating whether or not to attempt a rational response to some of the homophobic or willfully ignorant nationalist comments some have made in defense of the Russian decision on this thread.

(I decided it wasn't worth the time or effort.)

Mathman · Feb 15, 2013

let`s talk said:
FYI after decriminalization of homosexual acts in 1993 there were no laws on banning whatever gay stuff, nothing at all.

Interesting. When they passed this act in 1993, did they let the people out of jail who had been arrested back in the "criminal" days?

Care to ask yourself why did they show up almost 15-20 years later after decriminalization of homosexuality? What provoke the society to introduce such laws?

If parades and demonstrations "provoke society" into passing repressive laws, does that say something about the paraders or about society?

Speaking of the Olympics, here is the response of the Russian wrestling coach to the announcement that wrestling might be omitted from future Olympic games.

If they expel wrestling now, that means that gays will soon run the whole world...It turns out this committee is headed by a [gay]. It is necessary for millions around the world who understand that this is a man’s sport and who understand the need to continue the human race to go out and explain their position to the Olympic Committee. We should prove and explain that in any other case there is no future.”

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...h-goes-on-homophobic-rant-hurts-his-own-cause

There is a certain amount of irony going on here. If you Google "Is wrestling a gay sport?" you will get 48,000,000 hits. Only 3.6 million for "Is figure skating a gay sport?"

let`s talk · Feb 15, 2013

Mathman said:
Interesting. When they passed this act in 1993, did they let the people out of jail who had been arrested back in the "criminal" days?

The Criminal Code Of The Russian Federation

Article 10. The Retroactive Force of a Criminal Law

1. A criminal law which removes the criminality of a deed, mitigates punishment, or in any other way improves the position of a person who has committed a crime shall have retroactive force, that is, extend to the persons who have committed the respective deeds before the entry of such law into force, including to persons who are serving or have served the sentence. A criminal law that establishes the criminality of a deed and increases punishment or in any other way worsens the position of a person shall have no retroactive force.

If parades and demonstrations "provoke society" into passing repressive laws, does that say something about the paraders or about society?

Both. Alekseev said they will organize gay demonstrations in front of kindergartens and schools after the law had passed (says about demonstraters). It didn't work (says about society).

If you Google "Is wrestling a gay sport?" you will get 48,000,000 hits. Only 3.6 million for "Is figure skating a gay sport?"

Knowing how search system works if really doesn't mean anything, except that wrestling is more popular in the internet than figure skating.

Mathman · Feb 15, 2013

let`s talk said:
The Criminal Code Of The Russian Federation

Article 10. The Retroactive Force of a Criminal Law

1. A criminal law which removes the criminality of a deed, mitigates punishment, or in any other way improves the position of a person who has committed a crime shall have retroactive force, that is, extend to the persons who have committed the respective deeds before the entry of such law into force, including to persons who are serving or have served the sentence. A criminal law that establishes the criminality of a deed and increases punishment or in any other way worsens the position of a person shall have no retroactive force.

The United States lags behind inthis area of law. (It is one of the few countries in the world that does so.) I am pretty sure (I am not a lawyer) that there is no guarantee of reduction of sentence if the law is later changed to the benefit of the law-breaker. This is currently in the news because two states, Colorado and Washington, just voted to legalize marijuana. But the language of the law does not convey "legislative intent" to let people out of jail who were previously convicted under the old law.

This is complicated by the fact that marijuana possession is still a federal crime, so state law is now in conflict with federal law. Plus, there is a significant number of drug dealers and crooks that are guilty of major criminal activity, but the only thing the prosecutor could prove in court is that they were in possession of marijuana when they were arrested.

On the other side of the coin, about imposing stricter punishment retroactively, this has come up with respect to fairly recent laws requiring convicted sex offenders to register with the government, which then makes lists of such offenders available to the public. The courts have ruled that this is OK because it is not actually a punishment -- well, not a punishment punishment, just a sort-of punishment. Plus, the rights of convicted criminals must be weighed against concerns for public safety.

U.S. politicians and judges are extremely reluctant to tackle issues of this sort because they don't want to be accused of being "soft on crime" when they run for reelection.

About wrestling, I guess the question I have is what would this Olympic wrestling coach do if he found out that one of his prize wrestlers is gay?

Violet Bliss · Feb 15, 2013

Jailing homosexual men as criminals or immoral influences is the most ridiculous thing logistically. Jail them with other men? Or in a special facilities just for gay men? :laugh:

Put them with women? Then most criminals would claim to be gay!

I've predicted legalization of marijuana and more state will follow, because it is an economic issue, not about justice. Marijuana is too easy to grow and offers little profit opportunities for tobacco companies so it has been deemed illegal. But now the financially strapped states want to be able to tax the products, not to mention saving on legal and jail cost.

In the US the privatization of prisons has put many kids and minor offenders in jail because they are preferred clients. Judges have been bribed to sent these easy "criminals" into the system where they harden and get damaged. Major criminals are tough to keep and not desired by these private prisons.

It is seldom about justice or rehabilitation.

Maybe wrestling is no more a core Olympic sport because it's so gay.

Bobsleds too.

Olympia · Feb 15, 2013

SF, your first paragraph made me smile. What images it conjures up.

Your point about the privatization of prisons is very apt and extremely saddening. It's now called the Corrections Industry, and it is the chief source of employment in some areas, so there isn't much motivation to change it. Unlike many "industries," it depends not on consumers but upon products. The people inside are the products. They are probably measured by the head. It has frequently been said in this country that keeping someone in prison for a year costs as much as, or more than, paying a year's college tuition. It not only hardens many previously nonviolent prisoners, but I'm sure it coarsens the corrections officers as well.

As for the possibility of Russian gay people organizing demonstrations in front of schools...what would be the goal of such a demonstration? The demonstrators are more likely to get pelted by flying objects from the general public (including the schoolchildren, possibly) than they are to make "converts." No one looks out at a group of gay marchers and says, "Wow, that's what I want to be when I grow up."

In fact, I was once in a large city here when a gay pride parade was going on. I was running an errand the next block over, so I could hear some of the cheering and bands, and several costumed participants drifted over to the block I was on. Meanwhile, coming up the street were a pair of Orthodox Jewish women with a baby stroller. Nearby, also on foot, was a Muslim woman in a headscarf. None of these people made any comment, gesture, or move toward any of the others. They just went about their business. Most people do, when left alone in a society in which they feel moderately safe.

Sochi Olympics will test gay rights

CanadianSkaterGuy

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gmyers

gmyers

CanadianSkaterGuy

Mathman

Riemann

Riemann

CanadianSkaterGuy

Mathman

IndieBoi

Mathman

IndieBoi

let`s talk

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Pepe Nero

Mathman

let`s talk

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Mathman

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