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Thread: 2013 4CC Men-Short Program

  1. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Some skaters handled that well (doing both Junior and Senior Worlds) in the past. I guess it all depends on whether him and his coaches feel he is up for it.

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    Junior and Senior worlds are only two weeks apart this year though and in two different continents from where he trains.
    Anyway whoever goes Song or Yan I really hope gets into the top 10 and secure two spots.

  2. #227
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    I agree that there isn't that much consistency in U.S. disciplines except dance so in this case I would choose the one that has the pcs...but that's just me.

  3. #228
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Thanx for videos, I was now able to see the ones I missed.
    Han is still young, posture is the first that needs to improve, plus presentation and choreo. 'But his jumps are so huge. And lovely flow.

  4. #229
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    Oy. US Men are 9th and 10th without Chan, Fernandez, and the rest of the Europeans?? I'll wait until the FS to pass judgment, but this competition does not bode well for Aaron and Miner's quest to get 3 spots for Sochi. Yikes.

  5. #230
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    [QUOTE Anyway whoever goes Song or Yan I really hope gets into the top 10 and secure two spots.[/QUOTE]

    You are thinking exactly what I am thinking:-) but I think Song is more likely to be sent to Worlds. Overall, this competition is far more exciting than I expected.

  6. #231
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    Kevin Reynolds URd both his quads and his 3a was messy; he got -GOE on all three jumps.

    He's had that same SP for about 3 years now. He should be performing it better and better.

  7. #232
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    Aaron and Minor are not getting that 3rd spot back. I don't see any combination that would get it back right now. They are all to inconsistent.

  8. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    Aaron and Minor are not getting that 3rd spot back. I don't see any combination that would get it back right now. They are all to inconsistent.
    To be fair, Nationals was just two weeks ago, so they haven't had a lot of time to recover and peak back. You saw that with D/W as well.

    I think it will be a challenge to get 3 spots, but not absolutely impossible.

  9. #234
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    Can we initiate a Save Takahashi campaign yet? His rock n rock SP had much more interesting moves and always got the crowd going. If he had skated it like at the GPF, he would be contending for the top SP spot in any competition. Besides the combination spin and the footwork sequence, this Moonlight Sonata SP is a dud.

    I hope his PCS here makes him rethink using Morosov for choreography. Please go back to Camerlengo and Miyamoto next year!

  10. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    The USFS selection system is not the problem when it comes to the men. Nobody is stepping up and showing they are competitive with the top men and except for Minor no one is consistent either. If we had someone who had the skills and wasn't a headcase and was consistent it would work its way out.
    ^^ Well, that's also what I said, several times already and consistently. Step up to the plate guys, and bust those quad moves every time out. Skate steady and carry a big stick!

    And sure, the selection process is a rusty conundrum, d***ed if they do and f*ed if they don't.

    However, Jammers, you don't seem to be looking at the genesis of the current cycle or transition or what have you re U.S. men and the rest of the World. Quite a lot of factors are involved. Yes, Jeremy hasn't managed to bust all the way through internationally when he's had a few opportunities, but IMHO, the U.S. would not have lost 3 spots had they rewarded Jeremy even with mistakes in 2011 (just as they rewarded Ashley with mistakes this year). Jeremy had done well on the GP circuit in 2010-2011 season, and he was 5th in the World. At least give him the opportunity to redeem himself after Nats, and then if a third spot was still lost that year, it would have been lost with the best team on the field. As consistent as Ross is, by .19 ahead of Jeremy, Ross could have better waited by .19 behind for the following season and still been steady and competitive.

    Momentum is irretrievably lost when a country's top skater has stop and start opportunities at Worlds. In what universe did USFS think RyanB was going to be considered a top five threat internationally? And even though Richard and Ross were exceptionally good and clean at 2011 Worlds, they did not have quads and were otherwise completely dissed as newbies. Furthermore, when you leave your best skater home as the USFS did in 2011, you are telling the rest of the World that you don't trust that skater which lowers the skater's confidence, and lowers the respect in which he is regarded by ISU judges.

    The following season Jeremy built back up a modicum of respect at least PCS-wise, but still time, momentum and confidence had been lost. Now Jeremy's struggling with physical problems which made it difficult for him to train the quad this season. And the quad has become even more important. Jeremy still might have been sent to Worlds this year (as his artistry is more respected than in 2011), but sure he alone killed his chances by doubling several triples, and so it is completely understandable why he's not currently on the team. Unfortunately, without a steady heavyweight go-to-guy leading this transitional phase, the confidence of the entire U.S. men's field is kind of shaky, and they are not really looked upon with a great deal of respect -- they are often dissed by fans and by ISU judges -- they have NO margin for error, whilst some of the top established guys always do!

    Actually, Max and Ross did not have totally bad skates. So yes, it's quite possible for them to do better and pull up a bit, depending upon how well those now ahead of them perform. The thing is to always get out there and lay down clean programs until you've gained a good reputation, and the judges feel they can trust you.
    Last edited by Art&Sport; 02-08-2013 at 04:15 PM.

  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Art&Sport View Post

    Hanyu! Despite his mistake, I'd say he deserves first place. But I think the scores are a bit inflated among the top four guys in view of the mistakes (and in view of Han Yan's relative immaturity, despite his fantastic jumping ability). Han Yan, IMO, was over-scored on PCS, especially SS, CH, and IN -- way over-scored. Han Yan does not have very good spins at the moment either, but he's the real deal as far as talent, and he will do extremely well in his career. It's just this tendency among ISU judges to push up guys who have great jumping ability and latent artistry but who are just not there yet artistically. Even Hanyu has precocious abilities technically, but he's still maturing artistically. The emphasis on quads has skewed the judging of this sport, IMHO.

    Judges ran out of room and judging ability, it looks like to me. Richard is fortunate to be in third place, since he had the slight hand down, but he was very good on everything else and his PCS is better than everyone he's in front of except Takahashi and Ten (on a good day). Apparently Dai did not have enough mileage on his new sp to pull out a better performance. I wouldn't bet against Dai doing a better job in the lp. Nan Song might have deserved to be a bit higher, but he still needs to improve his presentation skills as well. Seems like if you are a way out of sight jumper as Han Yan is, and you go clean, the judges overlook minor weak areas and go haywire with the scoring.

    Denis Ten is exquisite but very inconsistent technically. He's someone who's had the opportunity to go to Worlds year after year, and it's still taking him time to manage his nerves under pressure. Yet, the judges love him and will give him the marks. Reynolds has got the quads working for him (especially at his Nats), but he's still not the complete package.

    Ross is an all-around very pleasing skater to watch. He's got excellent technical skills, good spins, straight back and great posture and lines. His carriage is good too (altho' a bit stiff). He definitely can improve on presentation, but he's no slouch there either even tho' he's often harshly judged in that area. I don't think Song, Mura, Han or Reynolds are better than Ross in terms of PCS. Denis is definitely better than Ross artistically, but Denis' downfall is his technical inconsistencies because he has beautiful jumps if he can land them cleanly. This season, Ross' programs are great vehicles for him with wonderful choreography. Despite skating early, had Ross not popped his quad, he should IMO, be in front of Song, Reynolds, Ten and Mura.

    Max is new on the scene internationally, but he's also a great jumper. Neither Han, Mura, Reynolds, Ten or Song have got anything on Max in the jumping department, but Max needs to go clean, because it looks like he's gonna be a whipping boy re PCS. But, we shall see what happens in the long program.

    Lots of guys loaded for bear, and out to push each other and themselves.
    Oh, I absolutely agree that Hanyu should be in first- I wrote that comment before Hanyu had skated! Do you really think Han Yan has poor SS? I think he has great flow and good edges. I do agree that his IN and CH marks were a little inflated (the CH isn't really lhis fault, I don't think)- but I was just wondering whether you'd have had Dornbush ahead, with his mistake, or Song.

    Certainly Hanyu was the class of the field, even with the mistake! (I say this as an enormous Daisuke girl. Not sure why he felt the need to change his SP; his last one was fine, and this one is nice, but not significantly better?).

  12. #237
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    How Dai could get 8+ for PE/EX is beyond me. I know this is done all the time for the top tier skaters, but it makes no sense at all imo.

  13. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Cat View Post
    Oh, I absolutely agree that Hanyu should be in first- I wrote that comment before Hanyu had skated! Do you really think Han Yan has poor SS? I think he has great flow and good edges. I do agree that his IN and CH marks were a little inflated (the CH isn't really lhis fault, I don't think)- but I was just wondering whether you'd have had Dornbush ahead, with his mistake, or Song.

    Certainly Hanyu was the class of the field, even with the mistake! (I say this as an enormous Daisuke girl. Not sure why he felt the need to change his SP; his last one was fine, and this one is nice, but not significantly better?).
    No, I amended that. Han has good blade work and wonderful flow over the ice, but as someone already mentioned, he needs to work on his posture and presentation skills. Plus he also needs better choreographed programs (which I'm sure will come). Right now, though, his spins need work and he did not deserve the high CH and IN scores. Judges are overly mesmerized by great jumping ability when it's combined with a young face and groovy artistic potential (e.g., Han Yan and Hanyu).

    Kind of interesting that Hanyu's greatest inspiration in the sport is Johnny Weir, and Han Yan's is Patrick Chan. Will the biggest star of the next generation be you, Han, or Hanyu? Probably both. But why must they be so heavily rewarded now when they still are yet lacking in artistic maturity? Certainly Max Aaron can't get away with lacking artistic maturity even though he too has fantastic jumping ability.

    Oh well, I'll lead the cheering section for U.S. guys since they get scant most of the time: Go Ross, Go Richard, Go Max -- forget about the pressure and lay it down! Hit it out of the arena!

  14. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Cat View Post
    Oh, I absolutely agree that Hanyu should be in first- I wrote that comment before Hanyu had skated! Do you really think Han Yan has poor SS? I think he has great flow and good edges. I do agree that his IN and CH marks were a little inflated (the CH isn't really lhis fault, I don't think)- but I was just wondering whether you'd have had Dornbush ahead, with his mistake, or Song.

    Certainly Hanyu was the class of the field, even with the mistake! (I say this as an enormous Daisuke girl. Not sure why he felt the need to change his SP; his last one was fine, and this one is nice, but not significantly better?).

  15. #240
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    As far as I know Hanyu used to look upon Weir + Plushenko, a great combo of insiration in my opinion.

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