2013 4CC's Ice Dance SD | Page 8 | Golden Skate

2013 4CC's Ice Dance SD

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
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United-States
I will say that I had higher hopes for this SD, though (we've discussed this already). It's interesting that Marina so nailed the SD for D/W and struggled to find the right fit for V/M and the Shibs, both who have conceptual short dances that might have been better suited to free dances. V/M made the right choice to simplify the emotional tenor (it was a mysterious, ethereal piece before) of the program and fit it more closely to the standard polka theme (it's very playful now); I don't think the Shibs really explored making a choice. But I love how expressive Maia is with her arms and body, and Alex is right up there with her. I really do hope they aren't dumped like everyone seems to want them to be, but the breadth of American ice dance right now is phenomenal.

It is a mystery to me why Marina did not give "Giselle" to V&M; I would have thought that Tessa would have jumped at doing a ballet-based piece, and I'm sure she would have been perfect in it. I wonder whether that toe-dancing posing section (which is a big part of what gives Meryl & Charlie's SD an authenthic feel) might have been thought a bit too hard on Tessa's legs? I say this because of Tanith's commentary, when watching that section of the SD at Skate America. She said something like, "That's so much harder than it looks. My shins are burning just watching it. And then to do 2 sequences of the Yankee Polka, immediately afterward..."

I find Marina's SD choices for both Tessa & Scott and Alex & Maia rather problematic this season. The excellence in these dances is due to the dancers, not to the choreographer. I can understand V&M's issues, since the original plan was a Carmen Sd & Hopkins Waltz FD; nothing wrong with either of those concepts, although I find Polka Carmen an odd thought, as did the judges they consulted. However, it is no odder than Polka Giselle.

By the way, turning every other kind of music to Polka is quite in American polka tradition. Check out "polka masses" on youtube, not to mention the whole Weird Al Yankovic playlist.

Alex & Maia list Oleg Epstein & Mauricio Margaglio as well as Marina on their list of choreographers, so who is to blame?However, I would not be surprised whether Alex's back problems have something to do with the relatively unadventurous nature of their lifts this season. Who wants to go into the Olympic season with a damaged back?

I like Igor's Polka Cirque choreo for Madison & Evan better.
 

fairly4

Medalist
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
good luck to davis/white i am pulling for you.
chock & bates, and especially the shibutania, good luck
keep up the great job virtue and moir.
 

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 28, 2006
Virtue and Moir's SD is beautiful. Elegant, romantic, beautiful--it plays to their strengths and let's Carmen be the experimental, "push the envelope" piece.
 

uncchristine99

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 29, 2012
:disagree: I'm glad that you are not a judge. Always? Always?
Why bother holding competitions if "it's safe to say" that the results are (or "should" be) preordained?

I didn't say it was or should be pre-ordained. I just said VM are stronger on the compulsory patterns so unless they make a major mistake, they will very likely come out on top after the SD whereas DW tend to take in the FD and if there are no major mistakes from either team and DW keeps it close to VM after the SD, DW call pull off the overall victory by skating away with the FD.

Nothing wrong or preordained about that... it's actually happened that way several times. VM win the SD, DW win the FD... the overall winner depends on how big of margin there was after the SD.
 

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avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
it's actually happened that way several times. VM win the SD, DW win the FD... the overall winner depends on how big of margin there was after the SD.

Your memory is inaccurate ... unless you consider twice to be "several times." :laugh:
- Virtue/Moir and Davis/White have faced off in both SD and FD at seven competitions.
- The combination of V/M SD win + D/W FD win happened at only two of them: Four Continents 2013 and Worlds 2011.

In reverse chronological order, the facts are:

(1) Four Continents 2013:

(2) GPF 2012:

(3) World Team Trophy 2012:

(4) Worlds 2012:

(5) Four Continents 2012:

(6) GPF 2011:

(7) Worlds 2011
 
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dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
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golden411, There was definitely a scoring error in the software at the 2011 GPF that underscored V&M by 0.5 points. However, because neither the coaches nor the skaters complained about it in the time alloted by the rules, the scores still stand on the database, similar to not changing the outcome of a football game due to a bad call by the referee, if the team does not protest at the time.

In fact, D&W's FD was the top of Progression of Scores List for "world records, until this 4CC's, when D&W earned a slightly higher score for their FD than their 2011 GPF score. Consequently, their FD score at 4CC's is now the current "world record." However, nobody has said anything about this, as they did when Yu Na, Patrick, and Yuzuru broke "world records" for two reasons:

1. Nobody ever talks about ice dance world records :rofl: :confused: no matter who has them, which, of course, is not very fair to the dancers.
2. D&W's new record of 112.68 is still very slightly below the score V&M would have had if they had complained about it in the alloted time, 112.84. It would be embarrassing for the ISU (again) if anyone were to bring up this up in the media, which is what might happen if someone were to actually report a World Record Dance score, even supposing anyone were interested in reading about it.
 

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avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
golden411, There was definitely a scoring error in the software at the 2011 GPF that underscored V&M by 0.5 points. However, because neither the coaches nor the skaters complained about it in the time alloted by the rules, the scores still stand on the database, similar to not changing the outcome of a football game due to a bad call by the referee, if the team does not protest at the time.

In fact, D&W's FD was the top of Progression of Scores List for "world records, until this 4CC's, when D&W earned a slightly higher score for their FD than their 2011 GPF score. Consequently, their FD score at 4CC's is now the current "world record." However, nobody has said anything about this, as they did when Yu Na, Patrick, and Yuzuru broke "world records" for two reasons:

1. Nobody ever talks about ice dance world records :rofl: :confused: no matter who has them, which, of course, is not very fair to the dancers.
2. D&W's new record of 112.68 is still very slightly below the score V&M would have had if they had complained about it in the alloted time, 112.84. It would be embarrassing for the ISU (again) if anyone were to bring up this up in the media, which is what might happen if someone were to actually report a World Record Dance score, even supposing anyone were interested in reading about it.

Thanks, Doris. I was aware that at the time the ISU had said that the incorrect FD score and rankings would remain as the official results (for the reason you say above) -- and indeed the ISU GPF 2011 results page does not even have an asterisk or anything at all to indicate that the ISU later announced that the official results (although purposely unchanged per the rules) were known to have an error.

But I was not aware of the interesting repercussions in terms of the FD world record (or lack thereof, one might say).
Wonder how long it will take for V/M or D/W or another couple(?!) to set a new unimpeachable world record (and whether the new stat will get any attention ...).

[For the purposes of the discussion about a supposed pattern of SD/FD wins for V/M and D/W, I thought it made more sense to list what the FD rankings should have been -- although the official results are otherwise. But even the official results (D/W SD win + D/W FD win) do not fit the trend that unchristine claimed.]
 

uncchristine99

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 29, 2012
Your memory is inaccurate... unless you consider twice to be "several times." :laugh:

Man, I'm not feeling the love this thread. If it makes you feel better to read "several" as "a couple," then please do so. I didn't say it was an emerging pattern or trend--just that there's precedent for these teams to flip flop between segments of the competition so if the scores are close, it's anybody's game in terms of the final placements. And if you really want to know, I specifically thought of 2010 Worlds and 2011 Worlds, where the former had too big of a deficit after the CD/OD for DW to overcome despite winning the free dance and then the latter being an example of when scores are closer together after the SD, the FD winner can win overall.
 

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avatar credit: @miyan5605
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Man, I'm not feeling the love this thread. If it makes you feel better to read "several" as "a couple," then please do so. I didn't say it was an emerging pattern or trend--just that there's precedent for these teams to flip flop between segments of the competition so if the scores are close, it's anybody's game in terms of the final placements. And if you really want to know, I specifically thought of 2010 Worlds and 2011 Worlds, where the former had too big of a deficit after the CD/OD for DW to overcome despite winning the free dance and then the latter being an example of when scores are closer together after the SD, the FD winner can win overall.

:agree: Agree with your point here that losing the SD does not prevent winning the overall competition with a strong FD. I hope that I am paraphrasing you correctly.

(If that was your point all along, it was not clear from your preceding posts. :confused2: Your previous comments instead seemed to emphasize other generalizations that are not consistent with the facts of the matters.
In any case, I'm relieved that we're on the same page this time. :cool:)
 

tulosai

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 21, 2011
I think you're right--I really do miss Bates/Samuelson. And along those lines, I have a feeling I won't like the new pairs partnership of Narumi Takahashi with her new partner because I really loved her pairing with Mervin Tran.

I miss Bates/Samuelson and can't get into C/B so I agree there is some truth to this idea. That said for me, he just really left a bad tast in my mouth with how he split up with Samuelson and I frankly think he is a bad person who doesn't deserve success. This prevents me from enjoying him like I should. I realize this is not fair (at least not entirely) but it is what it is.
 

blancanieves

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 3, 2012
I miss Bates/Samuelson and can't get into C/B so I agree there is some truth to this idea. That said for me, he just really left a bad tast in my mouth with how he split up with Samuelson and I frankly think he is a bad person who doesn't deserve success. This prevents me from enjoying him like I should. I realize this is not fair (at least not entirely) but it is what it is.

For the sake of argument, what do we know about how teams get together/split, right? Just saying, maybe things are not the way they seem. But anyway, my main issue with this pairing is that I don't like having dance teams that look like pairs teams. Regardless of chemistry, etc. I love to watch two people "fit together" as they dance, and that's directly linked to proportion and lines. Of course, if the approach is lift focused as opposed to dance geared...
 

uncchristine99

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 29, 2012
In any case, I'm relieved that we're on the same page this time. :cool:)

Thanks! I really appreciate that! No hard feelings!

I miss Bates/Samuelson and can't get into C/B

I like Chock but I don't think Bates is up to snuff with her. The skill and maturity level seems disproportionate between them. I liked C/B's free dance last year but I don't really like either of their programs this year. I think they're solid enough to be the #2 US team but it's a very large gap from them to D/W.
 

Ilvskating

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 30, 2010
I miss Bates/Samuelson and can't get into C/B so I agree there is some truth to this idea. That said for me, he just really left a bad tast in my mouth with how he split up with Samuelson and I frankly think he is a bad person who doesn't deserve success. This prevents me from enjoying him like I should. I realize this is not fair (at least not entirely) but it is what it is.

I don't blame you---I'm the same. If I feel someone is bad/mean off ice, it has a direct impact on my appreciation for his/her skating. I know I know it should not be that way, but we're all human:)
 

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avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
Thanks! I really appreciate that! No hard feelings!

Happy Valentine's Day to you, unchristine -- and to all!

I don't blame you---I'm the same. If I feel someone is bad/mean off ice, it has a direct impact on my appreciation for his/her skating. I know I know it should not be that way, but we're all human:)

I have had this reaction too, and I agree that it is only human nature.

A happier perspective on these feelings is that if someone seems to be a good person off the ice, then I am predisposed to become a supporter of his/her skating.

I sometimes am completely unfamiliar with someone's skating, but start getting the sense from social media, interviews, etc., that he/she has a warm personality, a great sense of humor, and strong friendships with other skaters whom I "know" and like. Positive characteristics like those can motivate me to take an interest in the unfamiliar person's skating. :)
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
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Yes, but Greg choose to retire. There is no evidence whatsoever that he was in any way shuffled off to Buffalo.

After Greg retired, I am told that Madison had her pick of several partners. She reported at the time that she picked Evan because he was kind.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
IIRC Evan was one of the four musketeers that roomed together at th University if Michigan, along with Charlie White, Alex Shibutani, and pairs skater (with Andrea Best :love: ) Trevor Young :rock:
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
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He was. And they must still be good friends, because it was obvious that Charlie was thrilled when Evan and Madison made the podium at U.S. Nationals this year.
 
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