2013 4CC's Ice Dance SD

[Mrs. P]

I will say that I had higher hopes for this SD, though (we've discussed this already). It's interesting that Marina so nailed the SD for D/W and struggled to find the right fit for V/M and the Shibs, both who have conceptual short dances that might have been better suited to free dances. V/M made the right choice to simplify the emotional tenor (it was a mysterious, ethereal piece before) of the program and fit it more closely to the standard polka theme (it's very playful now); I don't think the Shibs really explored making a choice. But I love how expressive Maia is with her arms and body, and Alex is right up there with her. I really do hope they aren't dumped like everyone seems to want them to be, but the breadth of American ice dance right now is phenomenal.

Absolutely. Definitely the bright spot of U.S. Figure Skating.

I think the Shibutanis have not been 100 percent for quite a while, which has made it a challenge to get a lot of mileage out of these programs. If I was going to guess, I'd say they are at about 80 percent. I don't think it's because they don't want to train -- their work ethic is well-known -- but rather they have been able to unable to train the programs at the intensity that they would like.

To their credit they have not made any excuses. In fact, they didn't reveal Alex's injury at the end of the season until Champs Camp (and I feel it was a response to a question, not something they had disclosed voluntarily). I get the sense they're just doing the best they can through whatever struggles they are dealing with. I guess that's why I'm a fan, they seem willing to just work it out even if they're not always successful.

Of course Flattfan is right that sometimes you can work as hard as you can and you still won't get results, but I seriously hope that this is not a case of that, especially given their strong basics.

[herios]

I will say that I had higher hopes for this SD, though (we've discussed this already). It's interesting that Marina so nailed the SD for D/W and struggled to find the right fit for V/M and the Shibs, both who have conceptual short dances that might have been better suited to free dances. V/M made the right choice to simplify the emotional tenor (it was a mysterious, ethereal piece before) of the program and fit it more closely to the standard polka theme (it's very playful now); I don't think the Shibs really explored making a choice. But I love how expressive Maia is with her arms and body, and Alex is right up there with her. I really do hope they aren't dumped like everyone seems to want them to be, but the breadth of American ice dance right now is phenomenal.

I do not agree with the fact that the Shibutani's are dumped. Not at all. Those who say that think in the POV of the old system, pre-COP, when if a team awas passed, it was for good. That is not the case anymore.
The Shibs jumped litelly on the scene with some great programs and skills to boot.
Last year, their style didn't fit very well with the SD requirements (sorry, but they are not as great in latin as they were in classic ballroom and also marina picked a predictable music for their LP).
Also P/B made sure they do not make the same mistake twice, as they did in Moscow, where they actually facilitated the Shib's bronze.
And also is another thing happening, new teams with great potential like C/B and H/D, who's progress was faster in catching up with the Shibs, as it is normal for new teams.
Marina again this year, gave them an odd SD music, which I think does not do them any favor (if I would sit on the panel for example, i would definitely marke them down for the lack of originality). I am lately underwhelmed by Marina to be honest.
All the other teams which went by the Shibs made coaching changes. Perhaps that is what they need to do as well.

[ImaginaryPogue]

Oh, I sorta agree. The fact is the Shibs slumped when several other teams experienced growth (W/P, I/K, C/L, arguably B/S)/

[Blades of Passion]

Last year, their style didn't fit very well with the SD requirements (sorry, but they are not as great in latin as they were in classic ballroom).

They had the best SD program of the whole season at Nationals and 4CC last year (for me)!

[golden411]

In general, I feel like V/M should always win the SD. Music notwithstanding, V/M are the best when it comes to the compulsory dances and unless their program (or music) is a dud or there's a major mistake, it's safe to say V/M should always win the SD. But also in general, it's the other way around in the free dance and unless the program is a dud or there's a major mistake, it's safe to say D/W should always win the FD. So, after all that, if D/W can stay close to V/M after the short, they are in great position to run away with it overall in the FD. I'm looking forward to it!

I'm glad that you are not a judge. Always? Always?
Why bother holding competitions if "it's safe to say" that the results are (or "should" be) preordained?

I do still miss having Emily around though.

I miss Samuelson too.

Thank you Mao88. Great skating from the top teams!

Many thanks to Mao88 for compiling so many video links throughout the season.

If Alex was unhealthy he should have just pulled a "Tessa 4Continents 2011".

Virtue withdrew from Four Continents 2011 because of an acute hamstring injury - unrelated to her recovery from surgery. Don't understand the apparent snarkiness from blackswan (unless I have misinterpreted him/her).
If Virtue had any early intention/expectation of withdrawing, why would V/M have bothered to travel halfway around the world to Taipei?
When Moir had a minor neck injury, V/M decided to withdraw from Finlandia 2012 before leaving home. Just sayin'.

I will say that I had higher hopes for this SD, though (we've discussed this already). It's interesting that Marina so nailed the SD for D/W and struggled to find the right fit for V/M and the Shibs, both who have conceptual short dances that might have been better suited to free dances. V/M made the right choice to simplify the emotional tenor (it was a mysterious, ethereal piece before) of the program and fit it more closely to the standard polka theme (it's very playful now); I don't think the Shibs really explored making a choice. But I love how expressive Maia is with her arms and body, and Alex is right up there with her. I really do hope they aren't dumped like everyone seems to want them to be, but the breadth of American ice dance right now is phenomenal.

Hoping for the best for the Shibutanis with their FD in Osaka - and with both programs in London.

Re V/M's SD, I believe that they have said that at first they wanted to use the Hopkins waltz for their FD (and to use Carmen for their SD). Ultimately they switched their music around because feedback from ISU judges indicated that the Carmen SD was not going over well.

Also: This season V/M turned to choreographer Jennifer Swan to play a major role in their FD starting from its very origination -- and in the evolution of their SD.
The Shibs have been known to bring in outside specialists to work on choreo on an ad hoc basis, but maybe ongoing strong input from a single trusted outside source would be better than putting all their eggs in Zoueva's basket, so to speak.

[herios]

They had the best SD program of the whole season at Nationals and 4CC last year (for me)!

Are you serious?

[dorispulaski]

I will say that I had higher hopes for this SD, though (we've discussed this already). It's interesting that Marina so nailed the SD for D/W and struggled to find the right fit for V/M and the Shibs, both who have conceptual short dances that might have been better suited to free dances. V/M made the right choice to simplify the emotional tenor (it was a mysterious, ethereal piece before) of the program and fit it more closely to the standard polka theme (it's very playful now); I don't think the Shibs really explored making a choice. But I love how expressive Maia is with her arms and body, and Alex is right up there with her. I really do hope they aren't dumped like everyone seems to want them to be, but the breadth of American ice dance right now is phenomenal.

It is a mystery to me why Marina did not give "Giselle" to V&M; I would have thought that Tessa would have jumped at doing a ballet-based piece, and I'm sure she would have been perfect in it. I wonder whether that toe-dancing posing section (which is a big part of what gives Meryl & Charlie's SD an authenthic feel) might have been thought a bit too hard on Tessa's legs? I say this because of Tanith's commentary, when watching that section of the SD at Skate America. She said something like, "That's so much harder than it looks. My shins are burning just watching it. And then to do 2 sequences of the Yankee Polka, immediately afterward..."

I find Marina's SD choices for both Tessa & Scott and Alex & Maia rather problematic this season. The excellence in these dances is due to the dancers, not to the choreographer. I can understand V&M's issues, since the original plan was a Carmen Sd & Hopkins Waltz FD; nothing wrong with either of those concepts, although I find Polka Carmen an odd thought, as did the judges they consulted. However, it is no odder than Polka Giselle.

By the way, turning every other kind of music to Polka is quite in American polka tradition. Check out "polka masses" on youtube, not to mention the whole Weird Al Yankovic playlist.

Alex & Maia list Oleg Epstein & Mauricio Margaglio as well as Marina on their list of choreographers, so who is to blame?However, I would not be surprised whether Alex's back problems have something to do with the relatively unadventurous nature of their lifts this season. Who wants to go into the Olympic season with a damaged back?

I like Igor's Polka Cirque choreo for Madison & Evan better.

[fairly4]

good luck to davis/white i am pulling for you.
chock & bates, and especially the shibutania, good luck
keep up the great job virtue and moir.

[Tinymavy15]

Virtue and Moir's SD is beautiful. Elegant, romantic, beautiful--it plays to their strengths and let's Carmen be the experimental, "push the envelope" piece.

[uncchristine99]

I'm glad that you are not a judge. Always? Always?
Why bother holding competitions if "it's safe to say" that the results are (or "should" be) preordained?

I didn't say it was or should be pre-ordained. I just said VM are stronger on the compulsory patterns so unless they make a major mistake, they will very likely come out on top after the SD whereas DW tend to take in the FD and if there are no major mistakes from either team and DW keeps it close to VM after the SD, DW call pull off the overall victory by skating away with the FD.

Nothing wrong or preordained about that... it's actually happened that way several times. VM win the SD, DW win the FD... the overall winner depends on how big of margin there was after the SD.

[golden411]

it's actually happened that way several times. VM win the SD, DW win the FD... the overall winner depends on how big of margin there was after the SD.

Your memory is inaccurate ... unless you consider twice to be "several times."
- Virtue/Moir and Davis/White have faced off in both SD and FD at seven competitions.
- The combination of V/M SD win + D/W FD win happened at only two of them: Four Continents 2013 and Worlds 2011.

In reverse chronological order, the facts are:

(1) Four Continents 2013:

V/M won SD. D/W won FD. D/W won overall.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/fc2013/SEG007.HTM
http://www.isuresults.com/results/fc2013/SEG008.HTM
http://www.isuresults.com/results/fc2013/CAT004RS.HTM

(2) GPF 2012:

D/W won SD. D/W won FD. D/W won overall.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf1213/SEG007.HTM
http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf1213/SEG008.HTM
http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf1213/CAT004RS.HTM

(3) World Team Trophy 2012:

D/W won SD. D/W won FD. D/W won overall.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/wtt2012/SEG007.HTM
http://www.isuresults.com/results/wtt2012/SEG008.HTM
http://www.isuresults.com/results/wtt2012/CAT004RS.HTM

(4) Worlds 2012:

V/M won SD. V/M won FD. V/M won overall.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2012/SEG011.HTM
http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2012/SEG012.HTM
http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2012/CAT008RS.HTM

(5) Four Continents 2012:

D/W won SD. V/M won FD. V/M won overall.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/fc2012/SEG007.HTM
http://www.isuresults.com/results/fc2012/SEG008.HTM
http://www.isuresults.com/results/fc2012/CAT004RS.HTM

(6) GPF 2011:

D/W won SD. V/M should have placed first in the FD, according to the ISU's corrected ranking. D/W won overall.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf1112/SEG007.HTM
http://www.isu.org/vsite/vnavsite/pa...00.html?id=985
http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf1112/CAT004RS.HTM

(7) Worlds 2011

V/M won SD. D/W won FD. D/W won overall.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2011/SEG010.HTM
http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2011/SEG011.HTM
http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2011/CAT007RS.HTM

[dorispulaski]

golden411, There was definitely a scoring error in the software at the 2011 GPF that underscored V&M by 0.5 points. However, because neither the coaches nor the skaters complained about it in the time alloted by the rules, the scores still stand on the database, similar to not changing the outcome of a football game due to a bad call by the referee, if the team does not protest at the time.

In fact, D&W's FD was the top of Progression of Scores List for "world records, until this 4CC's, when D&W earned a slightly higher score for their FD than their 2011 GPF score. Consequently, their FD score at 4CC's is now the current "world record." However, nobody has said anything about this, as they did when Yu Na, Patrick, and Yuzuru broke "world records" for two reasons:

1. Nobody ever talks about ice dance world records no matter who has them, which, of course, is not very fair to the dancers.
2. D&W's new record of 112.68 is still very slightly below the score V&M would have had if they had complained about it in the alloted time, 112.84. It would be embarrassing for the ISU (again) if anyone were to bring up this up in the media, which is what might happen if someone were to actually report a World Record Dance score, even supposing anyone were interested in reading about it.

[golden411]

golden411, There was definitely a scoring error in the software at the 2011 GPF that underscored V&M by 0.5 points. However, because neither the coaches nor the skaters complained about it in the time alloted by the rules, the scores still stand on the database, similar to not changing the outcome of a football game due to a bad call by the referee, if the team does not protest at the time.

In fact, D&W's FD was the top of Progression of Scores List for "world records, until this 4CC's, when D&W earned a slightly higher score for their FD than their 2011 GPF score. Consequently, their FD score at 4CC's is now the current "world record." However, nobody has said anything about this, as they did when Yu Na, Patrick, and Yuzuru broke "world records" for two reasons:

1. Nobody ever talks about ice dance world records no matter who has them, which, of course, is not very fair to the dancers.
2. D&W's new record of 112.68 is still very slightly below the score V&M would have had if they had complained about it in the alloted time, 112.84. It would be embarrassing for the ISU (again) if anyone were to bring up this up in the media, which is what might happen if someone were to actually report a World Record Dance score, even supposing anyone were interested in reading about it.

Thanks, Doris. I was aware that at the time the ISU had said that the incorrect FD score and rankings would remain as the official results (for the reason you say above) -- and indeed the ISU GPF 2011 results page does not even have an asterisk or anything at all to indicate that the ISU later announced that the official results (although purposely unchanged per the rules) were known to have an error.

But I was not aware of the interesting repercussions in terms of the FD world record (or lack thereof, one might say).
Wonder how long it will take for V/M or D/W or another couple(?!) to set a new unimpeachable world record (and whether the new stat will get any attention ...).

[For the purposes of the discussion about a supposed pattern of SD/FD wins for V/M and D/W, I thought it made more sense to list what the FD rankings should have been -- although the official results are otherwise. But even the official results (D/W SD win + D/W FD win) do not fit the trend that unchristine claimed.]

[uncchristine99]

Your memory is inaccurate... unless you consider twice to be "several times."

Man, I'm not feeling the love this thread. If it makes you feel better to read "several" as "a couple," then please do so. I didn't say it was an emerging pattern or trend--just that there's precedent for these teams to flip flop between segments of the competition so if the scores are close, it's anybody's game in terms of the final placements. And if you really want to know, I specifically thought of 2010 Worlds and 2011 Worlds, where the former had too big of a deficit after the CD/OD for DW to overcome despite winning the free dance and then the latter being an example of when scores are closer together after the SD, the FD winner can win overall.

[golden411]

Man, I'm not feeling the love this thread. If it makes you feel better to read "several" as "a couple," then please do so. I didn't say it was an emerging pattern or trend--just that there's precedent for these teams to flip flop between segments of the competition so if the scores are close, it's anybody's game in terms of the final placements. And if you really want to know, I specifically thought of 2010 Worlds and 2011 Worlds, where the former had too big of a deficit after the CD/OD for DW to overcome despite winning the free dance and then the latter being an example of when scores are closer together after the SD, the FD winner can win overall.

Agree with your point here that losing the SD does not prevent winning the overall competition with a strong FD. I hope that I am paraphrasing you correctly.

(If that was your point all along, it was not clear from your preceding posts. Your previous comments instead seemed to emphasize other generalizations that are not consistent with the facts of the matters.
In any case, I'm relieved that we're on the same page this time. )