2013 4CC's Mens FS

[Icey]

Pushing the envelope with regard to jumps has always been a part of the sport beginning in the 1800's. And that will continue until human limitation puts an end to it. In all sports, there is this tendency to want to do something that hasn't been done: run faster, jump further or higher, break records etc. There is nothing inherently wrong with that. Appreciate it for what it is. Figure skating is foremost an athletic activity; otherwise, we wouldn't see it at the Olympics (one could make an argument that ballet be an Olympic sport). When a skater is able to bring an artistic temperament to his performance, that is wonderful. Figure skating, certainly as compared to other sports, is over analyzed. This over analyzation (judging) is in fact asking too much of a human being. The judges do it, but I question how well they do it. The process attempts to appear objective with all the numbers assigned, but there is no way that one's taste, etc don't interfere.

Could someone link me to the judging criteria for Skating Skills. Thanks.

[lavender]

I agree that lavender could have been more specific re what she means by "prevent what happened," because honestly I don't think anyone has said they think Kevin Reynolds didn't deserve to win.

Thanks Art&Sports...you would be correct and I do think Kevin had to be the winner out of what took place but eek.

I don't argue over the internet so thanks for clearing that up for me.

[ImaginaryPogue]

Well, if you do bring back figures, keep that stuff away from my TV screen for fear of inducing narcolepsy.

As for CDs, there is a compulsory pattern incorporated into the SD. I actually thought it was a great solution to preserving compulsory techniques and seeing how teams stack up against each other, but still managing to keep the audience awake.

Heh. I like that you think I have that much power.

The frankendance is really not a great solution at all, actually. Levelling the CD step sequences means that a tonne of skaters focus more on key points than on the whole dance, and only doing each sequence once really doesn't convey the depth of skate-language required to do them well.

Icey, An explanation of all the components, starting with Skating Skills

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

The frankendance is really not a great solution at all, actually. Levelling the CD step sequences means that a tonne of skaters focus more on key points than on the whole dance, and only doing each sequence once really doesn't convey the depth of skate-language required to do them well.

I agree that it's not as precise as the prior CoP scoring of the CD, but it's a happy medium -- as in a watchable medium. Compulsory dances are boring as hell, and it must be incredibly monotonous and tedious to watch 24 of the same dance.

If anything, the Compulsory Dances made it easier for judges to prop up favourites. Domnina/Shabalin and F-P/M were the two recent Olympic beneficiaries of having compulsory dances that all looked the same. With such subtleties and not much differentiating couples (because of a lack of elements), judges could easily place teams however they wanted.

The same goes with figures. Skaters like Orser and Ito were two unfortunate casualties of this, and they're arguably two of the best skaters of all time... yeah yeah, I know, but could they do a rocker and a paragraph 3s pattern better than everyone else? Yawn.

[ImaginaryPogue]

I agree that it's not as precise as the prior CoP scoring of the CD, but it's a happy medium -- as in a watchable medium. Compulsory dances are boring as hell, and it must be incredibly monotonous and tedious to watch 24 of the same dance.

If anything, the Compulsory Dances made it easier for judges to prop up favourites. Domnina/Shabalin and F-P/M were the two recent Olympic beneficiaries of having compulsory dances that all looked the same. With such subtleties and not much differentiating couples (because of a lack of elements), judges could easily place teams however they wanted.

The same goes with figures. Skaters like Orser and Ito were two unfortunate casualties of this, and they're arguably two of the best skaters of all time... yeah yeah, I know, but could they do a rocker and a paragraph 3s pattern better than everyone else? Yawn.

a) I love watching great compulsory dancers, like Usova/Zhulin or Virtue/Moir. They still manage terrific interpretation and the little differences fascinate.

b) While that argument (propping up favourites) feels meritable, I think it's worth pointing out that Domnina/Shabalin still win Worlds 2009 and the Olympic bronze if you remove compulsory dances. F-P/M still win Olympic bronze in 2002 and Worlds in 2001.

c) Your figures argument, of course, is strongest.

[Coriana]

I see that a print version has been posted, but there are ISU judges' training videos on line as well. SEQUINS ON ICE posted "skating skills" and "choreo" back awhile. I'm not sure if you can still access those through the site. Right now "transitions" is still there. I'd post you the link, but I don't know how- as I'm not all that computer literate. Someone wrote in another forum that all of the vids are on you tube. They are longish, but extremely interesting with many examples from both current and older skaters.
Sequins on Ice is European blog -but the translation to English is included.

[Art&Sport]

I was alluding to how in the 80's, many of the men would have a distinctive upright posture and stiff arms and more mechanical way of stroking about the ice. I wasn't alluding to edge control.

That's more to do with individual style or lack thereof, and in that case stiff style of skating, is a better descriptor than controlled style of skating.

...As far as your prior assertion, there are plenty of skaters with bad skating skills who are still capable of producing quads, so I don't think technique is the main variable. I think adding more revolutions is simply a physics thing and the body can only take so much. A quad is an extremely risky element to begin with. Many are barely capable of the rotation of a quad and triple axel. I can't imagine the torque, height, tightness of rotation, and force on the checkout that higher level quads and even quints would require.

Which skaters are you referring to? Are you a figure skating coach? There are some interesting perspectives offered regarding training the quad in this Ice Network article from March 2012. Personally, I would trust more what coaches and skaters who are actually involved in the process of training quads have to say:

http://web.icenetwork.com/news/artic...&vkey=ice_news


And this from former skater and current coach and choreographer, Tom Dickson, in his interview with manleywoman, February 2010: http://www.manleywoman.com/episode-36-tom-dickson/

Tom Dickson, on whether skaters’ skills have changed after the end of compulsory figures:

I’ve worked with both [skaters with and without figures experience]. People like Matt Savoie and Ryan Jahnke did figures all the way up to about novice, and there is a difference. If you’ve learned [figures] loops you know how to pull a tight edge, whereas now, I train people daily who need to know how to do that. I make them do paragraph loop pulls, back change loop pulls, because those are skills [these people] haven’t learned, and it’s incredibly useful as a movement tool to be able to do tight loops. Jeremy Abbott, my first lesson with him was an outside eight. He’s done some figures, I think he passed his second test, but he didn’t remember how difficult an outside eight was [laughs]. He had a great run of his blade, but he had some issues like — I call it balancing your head on your spine, and we went back to the outside eight as a way of learning that. And he was like, wow, I didn’t realize how difficult this is. And he still does stuff like that. In the past I’d given him some very simple exercises to do very slowly, like doing a forward inside choctaw to a back outside counter, and he still does those. Often he’ll pick one and do it before they call his name to go out and skate. He likes the calming balancing influence on his skating. And I think that’s an element that skaters don’t have in their repertoire these days, is that calming sort of concentrated feeling that figures give you. I call it yoga on ice, it’s how to get into difficult positions and relax and sustain it, which is what you do in yoga [laughs].

We have a figures session at our rink once a week. And people like Ryan Bradley, I’ve made them do it [laughs]. He also passed his third test, but it’s been years since he did figures. But he says when he gets on the ice after doing figures, he actually jumps better. And I’m like, that’s because everything you’re doing in a jump is based on compulsory figures. Every position you take, the way you rotate with a curve or against a curve, all those are the foundation for shifting your weight off the ice and jumping. And that part’s been forgotten...

[Coriana]

The vids I referred to have now been posted from You Tube on the FSU Forum towards the of page 24 of the Patrick Uber Thread in Trash Can. they come up as 5.1.2. ISU Components if that helps.

[Art&Sport]

...

If anything, the Compulsory Dances made it easier for judges to prop up favourites. Domnina/Shabalin and F-P/M were the two recent Olympic beneficiaries of having compulsory dances that all looked the same. With such subtleties and not much differentiating couples (because of a lack of elements), judges could easily place teams however they wanted.

The same goes with figures. Skaters like Orser and Ito were two unfortunate casualties of this, and they're arguably two of the best skaters of all time... yeah yeah, I know, but could they do a rocker and a paragraph 3s pattern better than everyone else? Yawn.

Yeah, but the point is, not to bring back figures for competition, but to bring it back to help skaters with the basic technical foundations of figure skating. In any case, under IJS, the PCS scores are often used to manipulate placements, in a similar way that figures competition scores were used. Again, there's no need for top level skaters to compete figures, but it would help for them to practice figures as part of their training.

As far as compulsory figures in dance, I don't have a problem with how they have combined the CD with the OD. But ice dancers too would benefit from practicing figure eights.

[Art&Sport]

Pushing the envelope with regard to jumps has always been a part of the sport beginning in the 1800's. And that will continue until human limitation puts an end to it. In all sports, there is this tendency to want to do something that hasn't been done: run faster, jump further or higher, break records etc. There is nothing inherently wrong with that. Appreciate it for what it is. Figure skating is foremost an athletic activity; otherwise, we wouldn't see it at the Olympics (one could make an argument that ballet be an Olympic sport). When a skater is able to bring an artistic temperament to his performance, that is wonderful. Figure skating, certainly as compared to other sports, is over analyzed. This over analyzation (judging) is in fact asking too much of a human being. The judges do it, but I question how well they do it. The process attempts to appear objective with all the numbers assigned, but there is no way that one's taste, etc don't interfere.

Could someone link me to the judging criteria for Skating Skills. Thanks.

I don't disagree in general, but specifically, no, in figure skating the figures came before the jumps. And the jumps developed over a very long period of time. You might be interested in reading, Figure Skating: A History, by James R. Hines.

http://books.google.com/books/about/...d=Sa5dhmpSbbIC

[Icey]

Yes, I realize figures came first and that it was not until the end of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th century that figure skating tended toward a more athletic character, beginning through the developments of Ulrich Salchow.

Thanks for the book reference. I have been wanting to find and read a good history of FS and I am sure this one will be a good one if you recommend it.

Maybe a birthday gift for my approaching birthday.

[Mathman]

^ Happy Birthday!

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

a) I love watching great compulsory dancers, like Usova/Zhulin or Virtue/Moir. They still manage terrific interpretation and the little differences fascinate.

b) While that argument (propping up favourites) feels meritable, I think it's worth pointing out that Domnina/Shabalin still win Worlds 2009 and the Olympic bronze if you remove compulsory dances. F-P/M still win Olympic bronze in 2002 and Worlds in 2001.

c) Your figures argument, of course, is strongest.

I guess what I'm trying to ask is, what would be the point of having compulsories? They seem to be about mastery of a particular pattern rather than a showcase of true skating skills and difficulty. While it's safe to say that better teams will skate better compulsories due to generally stronger skating skills, stronger edges, etc. one can still see this in the short dance. What I like about the SD is that it allows teams to put their own spin and interpretation to a compulsory pattern and integrate it into something larger.

The issue I do have with a SD is that it can be disruptive in that it restricts the character of the dance by what is in the compulsory pattern. I doubt V/M's Olympic tango OD would have been able to incorporate a CD pattern without losing the character of the dance unless it was a Tango Romantica or Paso... and certainly can't think of a pattern that would have fit into D/W's indian OD or D/S's aboriginal OD!

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Yeah, but the point is, not to bring back figures for competition, but to bring it back to help skaters with the basic technical foundations of figure skating. In any case, under IJS, the PCS scores are often used to manipulate placements, in a similar way that figures competition scores were used. Again, there's no need for top level skaters to compete figures, but it would help for them to practice figures as part of their training.

As far as compulsory figures in dance, I don't have a problem with how they have combined the CD with the OD. But ice dancers too would benefit from practicing figure eights.

I would imagine top skaters still practice edge work and figures, and if they don't then they're compromising their edge control. It would be like skaters who don't practice spins or footwork and just focus on the jumps... they're really just shortchanging themselves in the long run.

[Mathman]

Every once in a while the question comes up as to what constitutes manly skating versus girly skating.

Figures = macho skating. Man imposing his will on nature, carving his initials into the virgin ice.

Free skating = girly skating. Displaying your body to secure the favor of the rich and powerful audience.

(I read that in Culture on Ice by Ellen Kestnbaum, my favorite figure skating book.)