2013 4CC's Mens FS | Page 16 | Golden Skate

2013 4CC's Mens FS

MaiKatze

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 4, 2012
Like I said, I really like them. They are very positive, but often too excited. "Mind-blowing stuff", "An absolute cracker" "The skate of a life-time" etc. You hear these lines in every competition. They describe programs with superlatives a bit too often. What I like about them is that they don't play favourites, at least not as obviously as, for example, their german counterparts on German Eurosport. I prefer these ecstatic comments, to putting down skaters you just personally don't like.
 
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pitterpatter

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 25, 2012
Like I said, I really like them. They are very positive, but often too excited. "Mind-blowing stuff", "An absolute cracker" "The skate of a life-time" etc. You hear these lines in every competition. They describe programs with superlatives a bit too often. What I like about them is that they don't play favourites, at least not as obviously as, for example, their german counterparts on German Eurosport. I prefer these ecstatic comments, to putting down skaters you just personally don't like.

:laugh: In their defense there are only so many lines in the English language to express 'Great!'
 

MaiKatze

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 4, 2012
:laugh: In their defense there are only so many lines in the English language to express 'Great!'

They are really optimistic and always focus on the positive of a performance. They sometimes critizise the judges but not so much the skater.

@jamie
I think, no matter how unfair this seems right now, that the days of Nobunari Oda are over. In any other country they would probably kiss his very feet, but in Japan his time is up. Imho, we will never see him at Worlds or the Olympics again. This is sad for a skater of his caliber, you're right.
 

jamie

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 3, 2006
@jamie
I think, no matter how unfair this seems right now, that the days of Nobunari Oda are over. In any other country they would probably kiss his very feet, but in Japan his time is up. Imho, we will never see him at Worlds or the Olympics again. This is sad for a skater of his caliber, you're right.

Completely agree, Kirsten. The multiple Zayak violations have marked him a headcase and the fed have given up on him. It is a shame, and his still so young. I wonder if Hanyu wins Sochi (and thus retires along with Takahashi) if they'll see fit to give him one more shot?! But it does seem unlikely, still I do feel like your past exploits should not condemn you to the bargain basement. He DID manage a Junior world title, a 4CC gold and 4th in the worlds, so not THAT shabby ;)

Having said that, Kozuka is a world junior champ and world senior silver medalist - he's not going either :/
 

rosacotton

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 2, 2012
Wow, I didn't think it was possible to top the wild, unexpected results of the Grand Prix Final but I stand corrected. What a crazy free skate. Congratulations to all the medalists! Men's Worlds looks like it is becoming more and more interesting. Can't wait!
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
They're showing a couple of men again on British Eurosport and the announcer just said Kevin Reynolds is a contender for the GOLD medal at worlds. A medal, maybe, but the GOLD? That's a stretch, and I like the guy..

If he performs like this, then maybe he is. That's one of the highest scores this season, and his short could have hit low-mid-80's if not for the errors. Let's keep in mind he beat who many consider to be the gold medal favourite.

Good for Reynolds! I didn't expect that result, but great to see the system rewarding technical content. I don't care how great an artist people say Dai is, with his two programs here, he did not deserve to make the podium. Like I said, it's a sport, and if you don't bring the jumps you shouldn't be winning anything. Also, Reynolds' artistry has improved. He's not as good as Fernandez, but I think his spins are better and they have similar jump content. He's certainly been consistent in his last two competitions. It's good to know that if he brings on the technical content, he'll get credit for it.
 

MasterB

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 18, 2004
Now that everyone has belly-ached about the results. I want to take a minute to congratulate Kevin. He deserved this win. Lets get over the fact that the favorites did not skate well and move on.

BEST OF LUCK TO ALL THE SKATERS AT WORLDS......
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
They are really optimistic and always focus on the positive of a performance. They sometimes critizise the judges but not so much the skater.

@jamie
I think, no matter how unfair this seems right now, that the days of Nobunari Oda are over. In any other country they would probably kiss his very feet, but in Japan his time is up. Imho, we will never see him at Worlds or the Olympics again. This is sad for a skater of his caliber, you're right.

Yep, sadly him and Fumie are probably over for japan.
 

Art&Sport

Medalist
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
Now that everyone has belly-ached about the results. I want to take a minute to congratulate Kevin. He deserved this win. Lets get over the fact that the favorites did not skate well and move on.

BEST OF LUCK TO ALL THE SKATERS AT WORLDS......

^^
I think a good number of posters have been congratulating and praising Kevin throughout this and other threads for what he accomplished at 4CC, so you're not unique in that respect.

Personally, I don't have an issue with the so-called "favorites" not skating well. It's too bad for them, and they'll probably do better next time, or not. As I said earlier, Kevin deserved his win for being the most consistent along with landing a lot of quads. But that doesn't negate the fact that the scores were humongous on tech and PCS for Kevin, particularly in his lp, as well as scores generally being inconsistent in sp vs lp for many of the competitors. If simply landing quads is the standard that can grab those kind of tech and PCS scores when there's other areas of a competitor's skating that still need work, then this sport will continue to stagnate.

I'm equally critical when the so-called "top" skaters get humongous scores when they skate a clean program with quads. They deserve a lot of credit, but the scores are simply being thrown out piecemeal, and end up being all over the place. Patrick Chan has in the past achieved similarly overly high scores when his programs have been loaded with errors. And, e.g., earlier in the season when Hanyu was breaking records with his clean and well skated sp, I thought it was ridiculous for his scores to be that high. He skated well, but he's still a maturing skater and IMO, he did not deserve such high tech and PCS scores simply because he has gorgeous quads when he's on and budding artistry.

The runaway scores for mistake-laden programs from top skaters, as well as for skaters who can land quads but need to work on maturing and becoming more well-rounded are perfect examples of the fact that the sport has no measurable standard by which to judge what skaters do on the ice. The rules change every season and the scores fluctuate from competition to competition, and even from short program to long program at the same event. The craziness of the scores sends confusing messages to the skaters and to the fans. But I guess the clearest message for the men is, "Land those quads fellows, the more the merrier the judges will be, and therefore you will be, whether or not your overall skating is all that great."

Wonder whether or not there will be a significant "course correction" at Worlds. Certainly with a larger field of "top skaters," the judges will have their work cut out for them. It would be so wonderful to see all the skaters skating their absolute best and landing quads right and left. In that scenario and at the rate the judges have been scoring, they're gonna run out of numbers and have to start slashing guys on PCS even more than usual. That would only serve to hurt less established skaters even should they skate well (especially if everyone else skates well too). I guess it's more likely that at every event some competitors will falter, particularly when the quad stakes are so high.

If nothing else, Kevin Reynolds has certainly set himself apart from the middle tier guys by landing three quads in his lp. He needs to keep working on other aspects of his skating, but the question is, "Where's the incentive for working on becoming a more complete skater when you can CoP those kinda quad/quad/quad scores?" The judges apparently, seemingly are telling Kevin that he has arrived. For Max, maybe the judges are saying, "You need to get a good later draw to skate, and maybe you'll be consistently rewarded on your tech scores and your PCS scores might average out, especially if you add a third quad to your lp. :p Most of all, don't fall, even though falling with completed revolutions isn't supposed to be that big a deal under the rules, you don't have any margin for error." Apparently, Dai and Hanyu do have more margin for error, and Hanyu was on the podium mainly because he's a known quad quantity who is the current boy prince of figure skating. Although Kevin may have been the newly crowned quad king at 4CC, he'll likely have to share that moniker at Worlds with Fernandez (and there's sure to be plenty of guys landing or attempting one or two quads in their lp.


I agree that the British Eurosport commentators are great at color commentary and knowledgeable aesthetic analysis. They also know better than some other commentators when to quiet down a bit and just watch the skating. Still, they should strive for accuracy even on statistical and fluff matters, otherwise they are not really doing their job.
 
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Art&Sport

Medalist
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
Yep, sadly him and Fumie are probably over for japan.

Hasn't Fumie been "over" in the eyes of Japanese fed for quite some time now. I know she's been still trying fruitlessly. Maybe like Midori, Fumie should try competing as an adult skater or join a synchro team, especially since she seems to love skating so much. And, I can't imagine why Fumie wouldn't be welcome at many of the shows taking place in Asia.

As far as Oda, and also Kozuka, they are still both relatively young and I feel that both of them are competitive with Mura. I doubt Hanyu will be retiring after Sochi (unless he wins gold, and/or experiences physical health problems). But Dai surely will decide to rest his weary body, which means Oda and Kozuka still have opportunities to try and make their National team.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Fumie is still skating because she wants to skate. Obviously she's not making the national team any time soon (or likely ever) but she's remaining a competitor and we have to respect her for that. Just like you can't hold it against 20th ranked skaters in the world for being unable to win but still wanting to compete, you can't hold it against her. She is one of Japan's most decorated figure skaters, and has nothing to prove, and she should finish her amateur career on her own terms. And she's 32! That's so commendable and brave of a female skater to still be in competitive shape at that age.

As for Oda, that recent competition in Bavaria shows that he can still rack up huge scores and skate clean. Plus I can't recall the last time (or if ever!) he landed two quads in an LP. I don't think he's going anywhere and will be a threat for the 3rd spot at Japanese nationals. He's still hungry to get to Worlds and the Olympics, and IMO is still capable of it.
 
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CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Can't please everyone including myself. Poor judges. If they reward clean hard great jumps over PCs, some complain. If they reward PCs over unclean jumps or falls, some complain. I feel for the judges.:p

I don't see why people are complaining. I know there are diehard Yuzu fans (myself included) but he was undeniably outjumped by Reynolds and made two major mistakes. Had Yuzu done the lutz, he would have won. Had he done the lutz in the SP, he would have won. Reynold's PCS in the FS was less than Yuzuru's, but for people to suggest that the judges should have spared Yuzuru's win by inflating his PCS or holding down Reynolds' PCS are just being sore losers. He skated clean with 3 quads, which to me, merits good PCS marks. Also, Kevin's skating is much improved... it's not like he's a Goebel or Stojko who is all jumps but lacking in artistry.

I think the worst complaints are those who are mad that Daisuke was scored "so low". He's a lovely skater to watch and one of my favourites artistically -- and I'm really hoping he recovers by Worlds after this disastrous competition -- but I thought he should have been scored even lower. He landed just 3 clean triples (and his spins were lacking). He placed higher than skaters like Mura who did a quad and 6 decent triples! (Even Misha Ge landed 7 triples, and I thought he should have been placed ahead of Daisuke. Certainly not the better skater, but he landed 4 more clean triples than him.) Between the SP after 2 major errors and the FS after 5 errors, I would have had Daisuke 9th or 10th and not 7th. It's outrageous that in the FS he was given the highest PCS scores when he had the 18th best TES scores -- heck, even Asada/Suzuki had higher TES scores in their FS. :confused:
 

Art&Sport

Medalist
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
^^
I certainly respect Fumie a great deal, and I wish she had been able to do better at Olympics and Worlds at her peak when the opportunity was there for her. Probably her best chance to win gold at Worlds was in 2006 (when she came up short with silver), and she came in 4th just off the podium at the Olympics that year. But overall, Fumie has had a very good career and has won a lot of medals at different events. I was just responding to Skater Boy's post.

ITA, it's not kind to "dis" skaters for still wanting to skate. Suzuki kept trying when she wasn't a favorite and in her late 20s, she's been able to break through and bring such joy and lovely programs to the ice (despite still having to play second fiddle to Mao). Even Mao deserves much admiration for her determination and courage in completely reworking her technique and coming back to be a strong competitive force at the top. Every competitive skater has to decide for themselves when their body has had enough. But to me, it seems a bit sad at the age of 32 to keep trying to get back into a level of singles competition that has passed you by. There should be other avenues and other opportunities for her continuing to skate. Certainly, Fumie is demonstrating great passion and desire. She's not done as a skater, but barring a miracle she is done as a competitive skater for the Japanese senior National team. Tech skills recede but true skaters who maintain their passion can continue skating well into their 40s, and more rarely into their 50s and beyond (e.g., Dorothy Hamill, Peggy Fleming, The Protopopovs, Kurt Browning, Brian Boitano, Scott Hamilton, etc.)
 
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lavender

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Any contender like Max or Reynolds could win worlds gold if all the top skaters skate bad like they did here unfortunately. It's happened at the Olympics and worlds for the ladies so it can happen with the men.
 

Art&Sport

Medalist
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
I don't see why people are complaining. I know there are diehard Yuzu fans (myself included) but he was undeniably outjumped by Reynolds and made two major mistakes. Had Yuzu done the lutz, he would have won. Had he done the lutz in the SP, he would have won. Reynold's PCS in the FS was less than Yuzuru's, but for people to suggest that the judges should have spared Yuzuru's win by inflating his PCS or holding down Reynolds' PCS are just being sore losers. He skated clean with 3 quads, which to me, merits good PCS marks. Also, Kevin's skating is much improved... it's not like he's a Goebel or Stojko who is all jumps but lacking in artistry.

I think the worst complaints are those who are mad that Daisuke was scored "so low". He's a lovely skater to watch and one of my favourites artistically -- and I'm really hoping he recovers by Worlds after this disastrous competition -- but I thought he should have been scored even lower. He landed just 3 clean triples (and his spins were lacking). He placed higher than skaters like Mura who did a quad and 6 decent triples! (Even Misha Ge landed 7 triples, and I thought he should have been placed ahead of Daisuke. Certainly not the better skater, but he landed 4 more clean triples than him.) Between the SP after 2 major errors and the FS after 5 errors, I would have had Daisuke 9th or 10th and not 7th. It's outrageous that in the FS he was given the highest PCS scores when he had the 18th best TES scores -- heck, even Asada/Suzuki had higher TES scores in their FS. :confused:


Well, I'm not the one complaining about either Hanyu or Dai being marked down. If anything, they should probably have been marked down more heavily in the short program, but weren't because of their rep with the judges, and also perhaps because they are seen to have better skating skills overall than some of the other competitors. And politics can't be ruled out either. It was probably assumed by judges that Dai and Hanyu would make a comeback in the lp, so they were essentially held up in the sp. Again there is not a consistent measurable standard because figure skating is historically a sport with politics-based and rep-based scoring. The IJS has not solved that problem, it's only further complicated the judging and added to the confusion and dissatisfaction among fans.

My beef really has less to do with the placements here and more to do with the fluctuations and inconsistencies of the scoring system, which muddies up a competition like this one. Kevin was the most consistent and he landed the all important quads, so the judges rewarded him and he deserved to win based on the fact he did better than everyone else in terms of skating fairly clean and athletically superior. That doesn't change the fact there needs to be a better measurable standard in place. Quads deserve more points but landing them should not necessarily mean that one's PCS scores should go up, or that tech scores should go through the roof. I've argued the same as I've said in situations where top skaters get high scores with mistakes, or get record-breaking or overly high scores skating clean, when they are still maturing skaters (i.e., Chan and Dai in the first instance, and Hanyu and Han in the latter instance).
 
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evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
He skated clean with 3 quads, which to me, merits good PCS marks.

This statement is so wrong and is indicative of nearly everything that is wrong about judging right now. Where in the rules for PCS does it say that quads = good PCS? Nowhere.

I think the worst complaints are those who are mad that Daisuke was scored "so low".

Uh....only a single poster in this entire 22-page thread said that Daisuke was underscored and he/she quickly retracted the statement a couple pages later. Being upset that a skater skated poorly does not necessarily mean that one is mad or complaining that a skater is scored low by the judges. :rolleye:
 
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MaiKatze

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 4, 2012
Uh....only a single poster in this entire 22-page thread said that Daisuke was underscored and he/she quickly retracted the statement a couple pages later. Being upset that a skater skated poorly does not necessarily mean that one is mad or complaining that a skater is scored low by the judges. :rolleye:

Thank you. Thought I was reading some different thread, too, after reading CanadianSkaterGuys post. I didn't see anyone suggesting that Yuzuru should have won, either. As far as I see it, everyone understands why Kevin Reynolds won this. As much as I love Daisuke I also think that he was very lucky with seventh place. Mura was much better and was one place below. I think a lot of people appreciate Daisuke, but no one is making excuses for him. He knows that this competition was bad and the fans know it as well. No one was having any illusions about it, at least I didn't find them in this thread, as far as I can see.
 
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