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Thread: 2013 4CC's Mens FS

  1. #241
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    Eek...by the time next season comes around I may only be watching dance.

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    It's 2009 Worlds and 2010 Olympics all over again! UGH!
    yeah...2002 too.

  3. #243
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    Art & Sport, When I commented that "the Yanks are coming back" it was a reference to how our mens standings in the world had faltered since Lysacek & Weir retired. I've just been looking at the SB list & Ross is 11th, Max is now 13th, Ricky is 14th. Abbott is 18th, 13 year old Nathan Chen is 21st, Josh is 22nd & Jason is 33rd. The latter 2 still may move up. Judging in skating goes in cycles. As to your list of great stylists, I believe only Kurt Browning ever landed quads in competition. Times change & in case you are thinking I don't appreciate the great stylists, it was because of Peggy Fleming, John Curry & Toller Cranston that I first became drawn into figure skating.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    Sure Reynolds got luck but American champ Aaron is far less artistic = seemed overmarked here actually.
    Based on the performances and the scores here Skater Boy, Max was seemingly under-marked in the sp on PCS, cuz I'm pretty sure that Max's PCS abilities did not change overnight, or did they? For that matter, Kevin Reynolds' PCS are suddenly hugely benefiting from his determined ability to effortlessly land quads right and left. Kevin's PCS suspiciously increased overnight too from sp to lp, yet his actual skating was not significantly different, just the program theme and above all, an increase in the number of cleanly executed quads. Without landing those quads, Kevin Reynolds does not win here, nor would his PCS be that high. To that I will testify and shout loudly on the streets and in the arena in London, Ont., risking being tarred and feathered as well as drawn and quartered and burned at the stake.

    As far as the difference between Kevin and Max artistically, it's there yes, but fairly minimal. Kinda like the difference between the Jets in West Side Story (street toughs with macho modern dance swagger), and young male ballet students jete-ing down the street after school to avoid being bullied. Neither even approach the artistic expertise of Jeremy Abbott, Toller Cranston, John Curry or Robin Cousins. Not even in the neighborhood.
    Last edited by Art&Sport; 02-09-2013 at 04:29 PM.

  5. #245
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    Congratulations to the medalists! Especially Kevin, and Han at his major senior debut.

    I find Hanyu has improved his PCS aspect of skating greatly this season but I still don't find him exciting, as great a natural talent that he is. Takahashi was in his own league here PCS wise but it wasn't his night at all.

    Kevin has improved his PCS over the last two seasons at the expense of his jump consistency. So great to see him finally putting it all together. What an accomplishment for his persistence! Most of all, I figure his haircut earned him about 10 PCS points when judges could see his face. I am one of the few who had no issue with his hair over the years but now I think he should have tamed it a lot sooner.

    I postulated that GPF or around then was the cycle turning time for skaters, Takahashi being one of those peaking then. I'll keep watching to see it would bear out.

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by merrywidow View Post
    Art & Sport, When I commented that "the Yanks are coming back" it was a reference to how our mens standings in the world had faltered since Lysacek & Weir retired. I've just been looking at the SB list & Ross is 11th, Max is now 13th, Ricky is 14th. Abbott is 18th, 13 year old Nathan Chen is 21st, Josh is 22nd & Jason is 33rd. The latter 2 still may move up. Judging in skating goes in cycles. As to your list of great stylists, I believe only Kurt Browning ever landed quads in competition. Times change & in case you are thinking I don't appreciate the great stylists, it was because of Peggy Fleming, John Curry & Toller Cranston that I first became drawn into figure skating.
    Awww, you're sweet merrywidow. Enjoy skating and the skaters you love. I know I have been trying to. But I'm afraid I'm a bit pooped. First of all, it's just too dang hard to try to find a way to watch in real time. Enjoyment is vastly decreased partly due to that, and then due to the fact that there truly is not a standard here. The judges and the skaters all seem to be shooting from the hip. Whoever is left standing wins ... but they're sure to pay the price in all kinds of injuries and body part surgeries not too far down the road. But I guess, go for your dreams kids, and try to catch those medals while your opportunities are hot.

    As far as times changing, that's the conundrum. This sport has not really changed for the better. It's just jumping to a new and crazy tune, and a chaotic math-inspired rhythm. The only thing fresh about it, is the young starry-eyed hard-working dreamers who have to conform to rules created for the most part by clueless, doddering old non-skaters. That's a fact. What's even sadder is that the sport's best and brightest are thrown on the scrap heap with not much to do except try to make comebacks, go into coaching, go back to school, look for commentating jobs or skating-related merchandising ventures, reality tv shows, or find a productive life completely outside of skating.

    Figure skating is a sport (never-mind art these days) that feeds upon the energy, dreams, desires, sweat, blood, tears, and bodies of its young. The sport doesn't care about it's fans and it doesn't care about it's athletes either, because there's apparently always more coming up when TPTB no longer have use for the so-called "stagnant oldies."

  7. #247
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    great job kevin reynolds in the free--keep it up.
    good job to yuzuru and han yan.
    good job u.sa. to max and richard, and ross.

  8. #248
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    "Whoever is left standing wins" (art&sport) Really, I remember many times when Chan didn't stand and won, and all the ensuing complaints and discussions on the boards that that should not be. That being said, there does seem to be a change about that going on. Standing is a skating skill, isn't it? By the way, I do not consider Reynolds as one of the "newbies". He persevered and has improved significantly. Seems he was a very late bloomer.

    Some of the young guns will develop artistry; some will not. When Curry and Cranston competed, how many of their contemporaries were any where near them as far as artistry goes. There is room for all kinds of skaters and each can be appreciated for what he can bring to the table. The ones who have it "all" are very rare. The list of artistic skaters you came up with is quite small compared to all the men who have competed in that time.
    Last edited by Icey; 02-09-2013 at 05:09 PM.

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by centerpt1 View Post
    Agree. 4CC shows that the quad beats all-forget artistry, interpretation, edge/blade skills. might as well send the guys out without music to do as many tricks as they can in a specified time. The beauty, the soul, the wonder, the magic of men's skating----dead.
    After the 2010 Olympics, many people complained that the quad was not vauled enough. Now, it seems that the quad is all that matters. :(

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    Sure Reynolds got luck but American champ Aaron is far less artistic = seemed overmarked here actually.
    The EuroSports commentators agreed with your assement that Aaron was overmarked in the free skate. They were also quite critical of the program content of the American men, and stated that it was not quite up to the standards of the past. They felt that the American men were taking the easy way out on choreography and they did not feel that it would benefit the skaters in the long run.

  11. #251
    Outdated Old Dinosaur
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    Hey, merrywidow! If those are the skaters that hooked you into skating, then we must be about the same age. Those were my favorites, too. Including, of course, Dorothy Hamill. The 1976 Innsbrook Games was the beginning of a long love affair with skating for a small boy, cheering with his family in front of a small hand-me-down color TV. Very fond memories.

    Regarding the TES/PCS discussion. I do think that a good technical skate can boost PCS scores. In a way, it makes sense. I'm sure that landing those quads in a competition program makes a skater stand a little taller, stroke more confidently, project to the audience in a more meaningful way.

    On the other hand, we've seen skaters visibly deflate when the jumps aren't going well, and it shouldn't be a surprise when the PCS are lower.

    I don't know the intricacies of CH, SS, etc... but we all know when a skater is "on" and delivers a difficult skate flawlessly... and the crowd leaps to it's feet... and the skater pumps his fist and looks like he's conquered the world... how can that not result in better component marks... contrasted to when a good skater struggles, perhaps falls, slows or otherwise appears cautious, and looks crestfallen during his bow?

  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFan66 View Post
    The EuroSports commentators agreed with your assement that Aaron was overmarked in the free skate. They were also quite critical of the program content of the American men, and stated that it was not quite up to the standards of the past. They felt that the American men were taking the easy way out on choreography and they did not feel that it would benefit the skaters in the long run.
    Love listening to the EuroSports commentators over my U.S.

  13. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by lavender View Post
    Love listening to the EuroSports commentators over my U.S.

    I agree, they are the best.

  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icey View Post
    "Whoever is left standing wins" (art&sport) Really, I remember many times when Chan didn't stand and won, and all the ensuing complaints and discussions on the boards that that should not be. That being said, there does seem to be a change about that going on. Standing is a skating skill, isn't it? By the way, I do not consider Reynolds as one of the "newbies". He persevered and has improved significantly. Seems he was a very late bloomer.

    Some of the young guns will develop artistry; some will not. When Curry and Cranston competed, how many of their contemporaries were any where near them as far as artistry goes. There is room for all kinds of skaters and each can be appreciated for what he can bring to the table. The ones who have it "all" are very rare. The list of artistic skaters you came up with is quite small compared to all the men who have competed in that time.
    Well, in the case of Chan winning with falls, the judges were left standing, albeit with their pants down when the audience rebelled in Nice.

    Yes, I think we all realize that Kevin is not a newbie, but he is a groovy new Champion.

    As far as "standing" being a SS, ummm, apparently not-falls, hands-down jump landings, and falls with completed revolutions count way more, much more than actual artistry. We can thank a "speed-skater" led sport for that, IMHO.

    I think during the time of Cranston and Curry there are plenty of forgotten skaters who possessed artistry and complete skating skills (due to having to practice figures). That was an era when youtube and the Internet didn't exist so fans never got to know all of the skaters who competed. There was also limited opportunity to make it to the top. It's not that the opportunities to make it are more plentiful now, actually it's still hard because there is more of a depth of talent today, but that doesn't mean that Cranston and Curry were the only artists and complete skaters of their era. Certainly they stood out for their accomplishments and commitment to furthering the artistic ideal.

    As far as names I came up with, those are the ones who immediately came to mind. John Misha Petkevich, Charlie Tickner, Tom Dickson (even Brian Boitano with his Sandra Bezic-choreographed Les Patineurs short program) are other names. Rudy Galindo was an artist and athlete who put it all together late in his career. Scott Williams was a wonderful skater, with an absolutely divine professional career in which he had the opportunity to grow as an artist. Fat chance of that happening for today's skaters. The Battle of the Brians in 1988 certainly trumps most of the battles among men today both artistically and athletically because those guys were complete skaters.

  15. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFan66 View Post
    I agree, they are the best.
    As much as they are a cut-above the rest, I think the Eurosport commentators are becoming a bit "stagnant," plus the fact they don't really know a whole lot about some of the skaters is very telling with some of their spur of the moment, catch-all phrases and comments.

    During the ladies event, the Eurosport guy's comment that Gracie's 3/3 was "as good as gold," was cheesy and inaccurate. And, his monotone comment that "Osmond's personality was shooting across the ice," was lame at best, and at worst it seemed to jinx her on her next jumping pass.
    Last edited by Art&Sport; 02-09-2013 at 06:03 PM.

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