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Thread: 2013 4CC's Mens FS

  1. #271
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of passion
    OK, white pants aside...

    that performance was about 1000 times better than anything we saw in this competition. How can anyone deny that the CoP has robbed figure skating of its soul?
    Last edited by Mathman; 02-09-2013 at 08:50 PM.

  2. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    OK, white pants aside...

    that performance was about 1000 times better than anything we saw in this competition. How can anyone deny that the CoP has robbed figure skating of its soul?
    Because of stuff like this

  3. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Ok that was rather obscene lol I mean like he's wearing a sports belt right? I mean wow.

  4. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Yes...but...it would have been even better if he hadn't spent the first minute doing nothing except stalking his first two big jumping passes, banking the points, before beginning the actual program.

    [Edited to add]: Let me expand on that a little . If you look at Fadeev's jumps, they are part of the choreography. A major part. Not so with Lambiel's. Plus, Lambiel's CoP spins were markedly worse than his pre-CoP spins. I would almost say that Lambiel is the poster boy for how the CoP affected skating, and not for the better.
    Last edited by Mathman; 02-09-2013 at 09:39 PM.

  5. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Bring back the 80s! Well, there's the camera angle I spoke about, plus Fadeev was sporting some red accents and a deep shade of white, even tho' the pants appeared to be somewhat transparent around the crotch area making the white jock strap quite visible. Still it was the close-up camera shot that allowed our attention to stray, or to focus.


    Mathman's attention didn't stray ... You make an excellent point, Mathman!
    Last edited by Art&Sport; 02-09-2013 at 09:40 PM.

  6. #276
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    That happened under 6.0 anyway. Lambiel's program is actually one where there are interesting movements before the jumps, though. The build-up pays off. He's also one of the very few who can do the CoP spins without them hurting the program.

  7. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Awww, I love me some Lamby ... Such creativity and he's a sweetheart to boot. Of his generation, Lambiel's my fave after Johnny Weir.

    But let me just say something I've mentioned before: The best of what we see the Little Prince doing in the vid is in spite of CoP, not because of it, believe me. It's coming from Lambiel's genius. And I dare say that Stephane Lambiel would have been an even greater and surely a more technically consistent skater had he performed in the 80s and had to practice figures.

    And bejaysus wouldn't it have been cool to see Lamby sitting in the kiss 'n cry receiving a string of 6.0s! The very thought warms the cockles of my sad figure skating lovin' heart.
    Last edited by Art&Sport; 02-09-2013 at 10:04 PM.

  8. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Yes...but...it would have been even better if he hadn't spent the first minute doing nothing except stalking his first two big jumping passes, banking the points, before beginning the actual program.

    [Edited to add]: Let me expand on that a little . If you look at Fadeev's jumps, they are part of the choreography. A major part. Not so with Lambiel's. Plus, Lambiel's CoP spins were markedly worse than his pre-CoP spins. I would almost say that Lambiel is the poster boy for how the CoP affected skating, and not for the better.
    I could list off dozens of COP programs that I absolutely adore and think that COP is instrumental in their brilliance. You'd point out they have no soul. I'd disagree. You'd list of the amazing 6.0 programs that made and confirm you as a fan of the sport. I'd find them epically boring. And thus, the world continues to turn.

    That stated, I'm interesting in this 6.0 universe where skaters never stalked jumps the way you criticize Lambiel for doing. And I'd definitely wonder why you hate transitions before jumps if you don't like long(er/ish) setups.

  9. #279
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    Lol using this thread to complain how CoP is so bad. It's not the scoring system's fault it was a lackluster competiton and medal favorites bombed/gave lackluster performances.

    I agree with most 6.0 programs being epically zzz, btw. At least I can enjoy figure skating as a real sport now.

  10. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moment View Post
    ... At least I can enjoy figure skating as a real sport now.
    Ah, then you don't realize that figure skating is Sport and Art. At it's essence it is both. There's something of art in a lot of sports, but in figure skating it is essential and inseparable. That's how figure skating developed. Otherwise, you may as well go watch speed skating. Or simply take away the music, the choreo, the costumes, and the moves in the field and have a jumping on ice contest (and/ or a spinning contest). Whoever jumps the highest and the farthest, with the most revolutions, and lands on one skate blade with no URs and no two-footing, turn-outs, fall outs, and hands-down wins. Nothing subjective about that.

  11. #281
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    I do realize that so you don't have to be so condescending. I'd say there has been a lot of CoP era performances that excited me in both artistic and athletic ways. I do not really see how it was so artistic and soulful about those past performances, anyway. Maybe cuz I am a new fan, who didn't know figure skating existed in the 6.0 era.

  12. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    I could list off dozens of COP programs that I absolutely adore and think that COP is instrumental in their brilliance. You'd point out they have no soul. I'd disagree. You'd list of the amazing 6.0 programs that made and confirm you as a fan of the sport. I'd find them epically boring. And thus, the world continues to turn.

    That stated, I'm interesting in this 6.0 universe where skaters never stalked jumps the way you criticize Lambiel for doing. And I'd definitely wonder why you hate transitions before jumps if you don't like long(er/ish) setups.
    I don't know the answers to these questions. I do know that I watched Fadeev's program all the way through, transfixed. I watched the first half of Lambiel's and turned it off. Don't know why.

    Perhaps my favorite performance of all time is Michelle Kwan's Tosca at 2004 U.S. Nationals. She does nothing but stalk seven jumps one after the other. Yet commentator Dick Button is blubbering at the wonder of it all, and so was I. Hard to figure. Somehow there is more to it than x's and o's.

  13. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moment View Post
    I do realize that so you don't have to be so condescending. I'd say there has been a lot of CoP era performances that excited me in both artistic and athletic ways. I do not really see how it was so artistic and soulful about those past performances, anyway. Maybe cuz I am a new fan, who didn't know figure skating existed in the 6.0 era.
    ^^ No intention to be condescending. If you are a new fan, that does limit your perspective. Maybe you had to have witnessed some of the great skating performances growing up to truly understand. You had to be there to understand the excitement and electricity in the arena when Rudy Galindo received his marks in the kiss 'n cry at 1996 U.S. Nationals.

    I'm not saying that 6.0 was a perfect scoring system. The sport had problems under 6.0 but IMO, the problems have only increased with IJS/ CoP, because TPTB acted too hastily and without a complete understanding of what figure skating is all about. I think they should have begun seriously working on making changes well before 2002, when they were suddenly forced to do so. There had been discussion in prior years, but TPTB were slow to change until it was forced upon them, and then they rushed in a new, half-baked system that has undergone constant reworking since then.

    IMO, they should have carefully looked at a way to develop a new judging system with not completely throwing out the brand of 6.0. Even if they used 10.0, but something more accessible that protected the audience's relationship with that brand, and also that worked best for the skaters, and not something forced in primarily to protect the judges. Just as they should have acted with more caution before completely eliminating figures. It still should have been required for skaters to practice, but eliminating from competition or making figures competition a separate event might have worked better. The sport might not be dealing with so many technique problems on jumps had they acted with more diligence regarding understanding the basic importance of practicing figures.

  14. #284
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    Feeling frustrated after having watched these programs. The judges need to find some kind of happy medium with COP. It can't be all about jumps and giving component scores as a reward for technical excellence even when choreography, interpretation, musicality, etc. are absent from programs. I've seen almost all the free skates now, and honestly, Takahashi and Hanyu are the only skaters who look as though they're doing something other than paying lip service to the choreography.

    It's hard for me to knock the skaters, because you do what you have to do to get as many points as possible. I'd probably put together programs the same way if I competed. And the technical content they're bringing to these competitions is INSANE. Kudos to them for that. But just like people complained (and still complain) that it was a problem that Chan could fall 3 times in a program and place first by 20 points because his component scores are so much better than other skaters', I'm complaining about Aaron, Reynolds, Yan, Song, Dornbush (to a lesser extent), and others being rewarded for jumping exhibitions that don't resemble performances. There's no artistic impression, no attempt to connect with the audience, to tell a story with the choreography except by punctuating crescendos in the music with half-hearted arm movements. Some of them don't even have good basic skating in between the jumps-- relatively slow, mediocre edge quality, etc.

    I hope that some of the better performers bring the technical content at Worlds. Either way, here's hoping that the judges figure out a balance between rewarding technical and artistic elements where it exists and marking down skaters who are deficient in either area before Sochi.

  15. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by amc987 View Post
    Feeling frustrated after having watched these programs. The judges need to find some kind of happy medium with COP. It can't be all about jumps and giving component scores as a reward for technical excellence even when choreography, interpretation, musicality, etc. are absent from programs. I've seen almost all the free skates now, and honestly, Takahashi and Hanyu are the only skaters who look as though they're doing something other than paying lip service to the choreography.

    It's hard for me to knock the skaters, because you do what you have to do to get as many points as possible. I'd probably put together programs the same way if I competed. And the technical content they're bringing to these competitions is INSANE. Kudos to them for that. But just like people complained (and still complain) that it was a problem that Chan could fall 3 times in a program and place first by 20 points because his component scores are so much better than other skaters', I'm complaining about Aaron, Reynolds, Yan, Song, Dornbush (to a lesser extent), and others being rewarded for jumping exhibitions that don't resemble performances. There's no artistic impression, no attempt to connect with the audience, to tell a story with the choreography except by punctuating crescendos in the music with half-hearted arm movements. Some of them don't even have good basic skating in between the jumps-- relatively slow, mediocre edge quality, etc.

    I hope that some of the better performers bring the technical content at Worlds. Either way, here's hoping that the judges figure out a balance between rewarding technical and artistic elements where it exists and marking down skaters who are deficient in either area before Sochi.
    Right on!

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