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Thread: 2013 4CC's Mens FS

  1. #316
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    ^^
    I certainly respect Fumie a great deal, and I wish she had been able to do better at Olympics and Worlds at her peak when the opportunity was there for her. Probably her best chance to win gold at Worlds was in 2006 (when she came up short with silver), and she came in 4th just off the podium at the Olympics that year. But overall, Fumie has had a very good career and has won a lot of medals at different events. I was just responding to Skater Boy's post.

    ITA, it's not kind to "dis" skaters for still wanting to skate. Suzuki kept trying when she wasn't a favorite and in her late 20s, she's been able to break through and bring such joy and lovely programs to the ice (despite still having to play second fiddle to Mao). Even Mao deserves much admiration for her determination and courage in completely reworking her technique and coming back to be a strong competitive force at the top. Every competitive skater has to decide for themselves when their body has had enough. But to me, it seems a bit sad at the age of 32 to keep trying to get back into a level of singles competition that has passed you by. There should be other avenues and other opportunities for her continuing to skate. Certainly, Fumie is demonstrating great passion and desire. She's not done as a skater, but barring a miracle she is done as a competitive skater for the Japanese senior National team. Tech skills recede but true skaters who maintain their passion can continue skating well into their 40s, and more rarely into their 50s and beyond (e.g., Dorothy Hamill, Peggy Fleming, The Protopopovs, Kurt Browning, Brian Boitano, Scott Hamilton, etc.)
    Last edited by Art&Sport; 02-11-2013 at 02:09 PM.

  2. #317
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    Any contender like Max or Reynolds could win worlds gold if all the top skaters skate bad like they did here unfortunately. It's happened at the Olympics and worlds for the ladies so it can happen with the men.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I don't see why people are complaining. I know there are diehard Yuzu fans (myself included) but he was undeniably outjumped by Reynolds and made two major mistakes. Had Yuzu done the lutz, he would have won. Had he done the lutz in the SP, he would have won. Reynold's PCS in the FS was less than Yuzuru's, but for people to suggest that the judges should have spared Yuzuru's win by inflating his PCS or holding down Reynolds' PCS are just being sore losers. He skated clean with 3 quads, which to me, merits good PCS marks. Also, Kevin's skating is much improved... it's not like he's a Goebel or Stojko who is all jumps but lacking in artistry.

    I think the worst complaints are those who are mad that Daisuke was scored "so low". He's a lovely skater to watch and one of my favourites artistically -- and I'm really hoping he recovers by Worlds after this disastrous competition -- but I thought he should have been scored even lower. He landed just 3 clean triples (and his spins were lacking). He placed higher than skaters like Mura who did a quad and 6 decent triples! (Even Misha Ge landed 7 triples, and I thought he should have been placed ahead of Daisuke. Certainly not the better skater, but he landed 4 more clean triples than him.) Between the SP after 2 major errors and the FS after 5 errors, I would have had Daisuke 9th or 10th and not 7th. It's outrageous that in the FS he was given the highest PCS scores when he had the 18th best TES scores -- heck, even Asada/Suzuki had higher TES scores in their FS.

    Well, I'm not the one complaining about either Hanyu or Dai being marked down. If anything, they should probably have been marked down more heavily in the short program, but weren't because of their rep with the judges, and also perhaps because they are seen to have better skating skills overall than some of the other competitors. And politics can't be ruled out either. It was probably assumed by judges that Dai and Hanyu would make a comeback in the lp, so they were essentially held up in the sp. Again there is not a consistent measurable standard because figure skating is historically a sport with politics-based and rep-based scoring. The IJS has not solved that problem, it's only further complicated the judging and added to the confusion and dissatisfaction among fans.

    My beef really has less to do with the placements here and more to do with the fluctuations and inconsistencies of the scoring system, which muddies up a competition like this one. Kevin was the most consistent and he landed the all important quads, so the judges rewarded him and he deserved to win based on the fact he did better than everyone else in terms of skating fairly clean and athletically superior. That doesn't change the fact there needs to be a better measurable standard in place. Quads deserve more points but landing them should not necessarily mean that one's PCS scores should go up, or that tech scores should go through the roof. I've argued the same as I've said in situations where top skaters get high scores with mistakes, or get record-breaking or overly high scores skating clean, when they are still maturing skaters (i.e., Chan and Dai in the first instance, and Hanyu and Han in the latter instance).
    Last edited by Art&Sport; 02-11-2013 at 03:47 PM.

  4. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    He skated clean with 3 quads, which to me, merits good PCS marks.
    This statement is so wrong and is indicative of nearly everything that is wrong about judging right now. Where in the rules for PCS does it say that quads = good PCS? Nowhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I think the worst complaints are those who are mad that Daisuke was scored "so low".
    Uh....only a single poster in this entire 22-page thread said that Daisuke was underscored and he/she quickly retracted the statement a couple pages later. Being upset that a skater skated poorly does not necessarily mean that one is mad or complaining that a skater is scored low by the judges.
    Last edited by evangeline; 02-11-2013 at 02:40 PM.

  5. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    Uh....only a single poster in this entire 22-page thread said that Daisuke was underscored and he/she quickly retracted the statement a couple pages later. Being upset that a skater skated poorly does not necessarily mean that one is mad or complaining that a skater is scored low by the judges.
    Thank you. Thought I was reading some different thread, too, after reading CanadianSkaterGuys post. I didn't see anyone suggesting that Yuzuru should have won, either. As far as I see it, everyone understands why Kevin Reynolds won this. As much as I love Daisuke I also think that he was very lucky with seventh place. Mura was much better and was one place below. I think a lot of people appreciate Daisuke, but no one is making excuses for him. He knows that this competition was bad and the fans know it as well. No one was having any illusions about it, at least I didn't find them in this thread, as far as I can see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lavender View Post
    Any contender like Max or Reynolds could win worlds gold if all the top skaters skate bad like they did here unfortunately. It's happened at the Olympics and worlds for the ladies so it can happen with the men.
    At this point, I think there are too many variables involved and too many talented skaters with quads to believe that Max Aaron or Kevin Reynolds could actually win gold at Worlds this year. Sure Kevin as a known quantity with more Worlds experience, and coming off a 4CC victory and with Worlds taking place in Canada, he has a better shot than Max Aaron has in his senior Worlds debut. Judges aren't necessarily going to anoint Max first time at senior Worlds with top PCS for landing quads and skating clean -- although if Max manages to get good draw positions and skates with great command, as the U.S. champion, he might score some political PCS points, along with the quad credit.

    Now if Max and Kevin were actually more complete all-around skaters armed with such solid quads, they could really rock the house at Worlds. At their best, they are both pleasing to watch with the definite improvements they are making in their presentation skills. But they know just like we do that landing quads is much more important than bringing transcendent artistry to the ice.

    The intriguing, appetizing possibility of slam dunk artistry combined with athletic ability is IMO what the judges love so much about Hanyu and Chan (and to a lesser extent Dai, since his quads aren't as solid). Unfortunately, Jeremy Abbott, Dai Takahashi and to a lesser extent, Denis Ten are the only high-ranked guys with truly mesmerizing artistic skills, but without the solid quads (and in Jeremy's and Ten's case, without consistent technique on jumps under pressure). And, Jeremy, who didn't even make it to Worlds this year, has been suffering from physical instability. Dai unfortunately was dissed in favor of Chan last season, and has fallen off artistically and athletically this season. Chan with creditable success this season seems to have felt the necessity to redeem himself artistically, even though he never stunk in that aspect -- there was just room for improvement in comparison to what Abbott and Dai bring to the ice artistically. As I've said repeatedly, Hanyu is engaging to watch and his quads are spectacularly beautiful, but he still needs to mature and further develop his style and identity on the ice. So, bottom line I don't think it helps necessarily to over-reward Han and Hanyu at this stage, especially with record-breaking scores.

    Fernandez has more potential to win gold, and I think Amodio has a better chance than Kevin to podium should Hanyu, Chan, or Dai stumble significantly. Although, I personally can't stand Amodio's style of skating under Morosov, and I don't think he should be that highly regarded PCS-wise. Fernandez has the potential to be a skating god IMHO, but he's not really there yet artistically. Fernandez' quads like Hanyu's are absolutely beautiful in the air and spectacular when cleanly landed, and he's usually consistent on them. Personally, I don't like the idea of trying to land three quads in a program because I actually think it detracts from the artistic focus and balance of a program. But there you have it, the sport has gone to the quads. ISU seems to feel artistry is welcome and appreciated, but guys are being given the message they don't really have to bother spending too much time on that. Many will probably be injured and out of the sport before they have the chance to significantly improve their artistic skills with further growth and development of a polished, mature style.

    At U.S. Nationals, one of the best skates of the entire figure skating season was performed by a relatively unknown skater, Alexander Johnson. Now that was complete skating, even without a quad! But who really cares among ISU PTB? The mens' event in fs is all about the battle of the quads and if you add potential artistry or show some arm-fluttering or emotive improvement with a dollop of well chosen music and/ or thematic enhancing choreography, you're in the conversation for podium buzz.
    Last edited by Art&Sport; 02-11-2013 at 03:45 PM.

  7. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    This statement is so wrong and is indicative of nearly everything that is wrong about judging right now. Where in the rules for PCS does it say that quads = good PCS? Nowhere.

    Uh....only a single poster in this entire 22-page thread said that Daisuke was underscored and he/she quickly retracted the statement a couple pages later. Being upset that a skater skated poorly does not necessarily mean that one is mad or complaining that a skater is scored low by the judges.

    I was saying that a clean performance (including one with 3 cleanly landed quads) should merit good PCS marks in performance and execution. Also, a technically demanding program but still being able to project choreography is a lot harder than an easier jump layout and projecting the same choreography. Are you suggesting that a performance with 8 clean jumping passes if skated 5 minutes later and riddled with 8 falls should get the same PCS marks, if the skater skates the rest of the program the same way?

    Mistakes, depending on how detracting they are, will and should affect the performance and execution at the very least -- it's not rocket science that a clean program, particularly with exceptional difficulty, "looks" better.

    Obviously it's okay to be disappointed with his skate and being in that boat, I'm obviously not attacking people who were I clarified in my post that my beef was with him getting judged not as harshly. And, uh.... as hard as it is to believe, there's a world of opinions outside this forum. Commenters on posts/videos, and yes, even skaters in the real world (!) have said Dai should have been scored higher and I was commenting on those individuals. As a general statement I was also alluding to those who generally think mistake-riddled programs should score higher just because it's a good skater.
    Last edited by CanadianSkaterGuy; 02-11-2013 at 04:35 PM.

  8. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I was saying that a clean performance (including one with 3 cleanly landed quads) should merit good PCS marks in performance and execution. Also, a technically demanding program but still being able to project choreography is a lot harder than an easier jump layout and projecting the same choreography. Are you suggesting that a performance with 8 clean jumping passes if skated 5 minutes later and riddled with 8 falls should get the same PCS marks, if the skater skates the rest of the program the same way?

    Mistakes, depending on how detracting they are, will and should affect the performance and execution at the very least -- it's not rocket science that a clean program, particularly with exceptional difficulty, "looks" better.
    Well, it's very natural to think that but if you actually read the rules, a clean performance does not automatically require good PCS marks in PE. If you read the rules, for the criteria for PE (for singles skaters) are:

    -Physical, emotional and intellectual involvement
    -Carriage
    -Style and individuality/personality
    -Clarity of movement
    -Variety and contrast
    -Projection

    Of the 6 criteria, only "clarity of movement' is really directly correlated to a clean performance. For example, if a skater like Kexin Zhang skates cleanly and lands all her jumps, her PE mark would not necessarily be high or good as she lacks (IMO) physical, emotional and intellectual involvement, style and individuality/personality, variety and contrast, and projection in her skating even when she lands her jumps. Will her PE mark be higher than it would be if she fell on all her jumping passes? Under the rules, of course, because her clarity of movement would be much better. But that still doesn't negate the fact that she's still lacking in 5 of the 6 categories of PE.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Obviously it's okay to be disappointed with his skate and being in that boat, I'm obviously not attacking people who were I clarified in my post that my beef was with him getting judged harshly. And, uh.... as hard as it is to believe, there's a world of opinions outside this forum. Commenters on posts/videos, and yes, even skaters in the real world (!) have said Dai should have been scored higher and I was commenting on those individuals. As a general statement I was also alluding to those who generally think mistake-riddled programs should score higher just because it's a good skater.
    You know....I love Daisuke's skating, but I don't think he should have placed any higher. He skated terribly and on a macro, look-at-his-skating-as-a-whole/6.0ish perspective, the marks should be terrible. And I do agree they should be terrible. But I do understand why people are complaining about his scores because if you break down Daisuke's performance and examine everything from a CoP, the-whole-is-the-sum-of-its-parts perspective, there is no way that Daisuke (for example) scored only 0.5 higher than Kevin in SS because Daisuke's SS is about 20 times better than Kevin's. Even if Kevin lands 10 quads in the LP, he still has mediocre edge quality, is very slow and lacks flow and effortless glide, etc. I actually agree with you that mistake-ridden programs should be more penalized, but unfortunately that's not how the current scoring system works in theory. And I think the judges intuitively agree that mistake-ridden programs should be more penalized and clean programs rewarded, because if they were marking strictly according to the rules, the outcome may have been rather different.

    But unfortunately for them, the people who are aware of the rules generally get baffled and angry when they see that the rules aren't being followed.

    This is definitely something that needs to be addressed by the ISU. Either get the judges to follow the rules more closely, or change the rules.
    Last edited by evangeline; 02-11-2013 at 04:28 PM.

  9. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I was saying that a clean performance (including one with 3 cleanly landed quads) should merit good PCS marks in performance and execution. Also, a technically demanding program but still being able to project choreography is a lot harder than an easier jump layout and projecting the same choreography. Are you suggesting that a performance with 8 clean jumping passes if skated 5 minutes later and riddled with 8 falls should get the same PCS marks, if the skater skates the rest of the program the same way?

    Mistakes, depending on how detracting they are, will and should affect the performance and execution at the very least -- it's not rocket science that a clean program, particularly with exceptional difficulty, "looks" better.

    Obviously it's okay to be disappointed with his skate and being in that boat, I'm obviously not attacking people who were I clarified in my post that my beef was with him getting judged harshly. And, uh.... as hard as it is to believe, there's a world of opinions outside this forum. Commenters on posts/videos, and yes, even skaters in the real world (!) have said Dai should have been scored higher and I was commenting on those individuals. As a general statement I was also alluding to those who generally think mistake-riddled programs should score higher just because it's a good skater.

    Yes, but as far as what people are saying about Dai in other venues has no bearing in this thread unless you specify in your initial post that you are talking about opinions being made beyond GSF.

    What you say in your first sentence bolded above, points out the difficulty in judging figure skating, particularly under the existing constantly fluctuating rules, and re the historical tradition of politics-based/ reputation-based scoring. Clearly PCS marks under the current system are manipulated and are often used as place holders.

    Kevin did an admirable job and his quads looked effortless (though he did have some execution downgrades in the sp). To be honest, I think Hanyu and Fernandez have greater height and more beauty on their quads than Kevin (and if this were diving, there would be expert judges able to detect the difference in aesthetic quality of execution and reward accordingly). But this is figure skating, and so the arguments among fans will continue, as will the ineptitude, confusion, and political-based scoring among judges. Of course some judges strive to do their best but they generally have their feds and the ISU to answer to, plus they are all hamstrung by the complexity of the judging system, which in turn lends itself to political and expectation judging.

    Further, I would argue that while Kevin's program is good and he's working his arms (almost too much) and including transitions, it's not close to being an artistically mature and complete performance, nor is the choreography especially memorable or unique, nor was his interpretation.

    Our different perceptions and comments get to the heart of the problem. The ISU can't be bothered to seriously convene past skaters, top coaches and long time, well-regarded authorities and experts in the art and sport of figure skating to sit down and come up with a measurable standard that can cut through the subjective nature of the sport and go a long way toward lessening random scoring and politics-based scoring. The reason is that the sport is traditionally elitist, stagnant, disorganized, politically back-biting and haphazard at all levels, and above all has been led for far too long by a power-broker from a different sport.
    Last edited by Art&Sport; 02-11-2013 at 04:36 PM.

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    At this point, I think there are too many variables involved and too many talented skaters with quads to believe that Max Aaron or Kevin Reynolds could actually win gold at Worlds this year.
    I definitely hope there's more variables at worlds to prevent what happened here at 4CC. I'm just preparing myself to not be surprise by not such great results (imo).

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    I agree that Kevin's program isn't particularly memorable, but he does have excellent qualities. For example, I actually think that his arms are more graceful than Hanyu's throughout his program. Hanyu still has juniorish qualities and doesn't have the grace and finesse of, say, Daisuke... but this will come with maturity. I think the same is happening with Kevin being around for a while, he's actually developing more of a maturity to his skating. Unfortunately, his "look" still has a boyish quality, but I think his carriage, spins, and flow are much better. He's actually integrating the high difficulty a lot better into the choreo instead of just reeling off tricks.

    Kevin's quads aren't as good as Javier or Hanyu but his success rate and versatility with them is admirable. He's been landing quads for ages and has probably landed the most quad salchows of any man ever. Javier is just finding his consistency with his quad this season, as is Hanyu, but that being said, both are better quads than Kevin's.

    Yeah, PCS being manipulated is the worst thing. It guarantees medals to veterans even with subpar skates and holds back newcomers who land everything (because, obviously, since they're new they are automatically inferior). That there is supposedly only one bullet point to one part of the PCS score that actually correlates to a successful performance is weird and blatant evidence that PCS can manipulate results.

    It's obvious that Dai was hammered for his PCS still (he got 82 points here vs. 90 points at the GPF), but it's also crazy that such a flawed performance would have earned the same components scores as Javier's lights-out skate at the GPF, only because if Dai's worst skate's PCS is on part with Javier's best skate's PCS, there's something very wrong with that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lavender View Post
    I definitely hope there's more variables at worlds to prevent what happened here at 4CC. I'm just preparing myself to not be surprise by not such great results (imo).
    I'm hoping not, actually. If Max and Kevin have great skates like these, I would hope they would score higher than Hanyu/Javier/Dai/Patrick with mistake-riddled programs. Obviously, there are politics and predispositions that are in place to prevent that, but one would hope the competition is scored fairly. The men's competition has lately been a fairly decent example of how the sport can be judged fairly, and I would hate to see that compromised by mediocre performances boosted due to popularity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lavender View Post
    I definitely hope there's more variables at worlds to prevent what happened here at 4CC. I'm just preparing myself to not be surprise by not such great results (imo).
    ^^ Ha, ha, maybe the performance inconsistencies that showed up at 4CC can be blamed on the rigors of having to land quads. There will certainly be more top level skaters competing at Worlds, and I think the judging is in such flux that it changes from competition to competition. Maybe the judges will be admonished to be more careful at Worlds. Seemingly at U.S. Nationals the judging was very conservative in the sp, but in the scoring for singles lp performances, the judges seemed to have imbibed one martini too many, or something.

    Probably a lot of people will feel that everything balanced out here in the end, but it's also possible to argue differently because there was as much inconsistency in the skating as there was in the judging. Once again, kudos to Kevin for remaining remarkably calm, consistent, well-centered and courageous. We'll see if he feels any added pressure at Worlds, or whether winning 4CC gives him an additional confidence boost and whether his solid training will continue to bolster his mental strength. Certainly, performing in Canada with the home crowd behind him will either add to his confidence or increase the pressure.

    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    Well, it's very natural to think that but if you actually read the rules, a clean performance does not automatically require good PCS marks in PE. If you read the rules, for the criteria for PE (for singles skaters) are:

    -Physical, emotional and intellectual involvement
    -Carriage
    -Style and individuality/personality
    -Clarity of movement
    -Variety and contrast
    -Projection

    Of the 6 criteria, only "clarity of movement' is really directly correlated to a clean performance. For example, if a skater like Kexin Zhang skates cleanly and lands all her jumps, her PE mark would not necessarily be high or good as she lacks (IMO) physical, emotional and intellectual involvement, style and individuality/personality, variety and contrast, and projection in her skating even when she lands her jumps. Will her PE mark be higher than it would be if she fell on all her jumping passes? Under the rules, of course, because her clarity of movement would be much better. But that still doesn't negate the fact that she's still lacking in 5 of the 6 categories of PE.

    You know....I love Daisuke's skating, but I don't think he should have placed any higher. He skated terribly and on a macro, look-at-his-skating-as-a-whole/6.0ish perspective, the marks should be terrible. And I do agree they should be terrible. But I do understand why people are complaining about his scores because if you break down Daisuke's performance and examine everything from a CoP, the-whole-is-the-sum-of-its-parts perspective, there is no way that Daisuke (for example) scored only 0.5 higher than Kevin in SS because Daisuke's SS is about 20 times better than Kevin's. Even if Kevin lands 10 quads in the LP, he still has mediocre edge quality, is very slow and lacks flow and effortless glide, etc. I actually agree with you that mistake-ridden programs should be more penalized, but unfortunately that's not how the current scoring system works in theory. And I think the judges intuitively agree that mistake-ridden programs should be more penalized and clean programs rewarded, because if they were marking strictly according to the rules, the outcome may have been rather different.

    But unfortunately for them, the people who are aware of the rules generally get baffled and angry when they see that the rules aren't being followed.

    This is definitely something that needs to be addressed by the ISU. Either get the judges to follow the rules more closely, or change the rules.
    Thanks for that expert analysis, evangeline. I think it points out just how over-complicated the judging is, which again lends itself to random fluctuation, politics-based and rep-based scoring, and PCS manipulation. The rules need to be further contemplated, codified and simplified. Also, judges need to be better trained, but that can't happen until the rules and scoring system are made more precise and measurable, so that proper training will actually be of benefit. The judges are all scrambling to get the split second technical aspects of their judging right, and even with the tech callers, I think programs are too broken down into parts right now which detracts from judges being able to really even distinguish "clarity of movement, or variety and contrast, etc." Some of them probably don't even know exactly what those criteria mean in assessing a program.

    There needs to be better clarity and simplification for judges, but I also think there should be someone just watching the whole program and rating skaters on an overall aesthetic basis (they have a tech caller, why not an artistic caller?). In addition, skaters should be allowed more freedom in their free skates, and the spin revolution requirements should be decreased. An artistic caller should have an understanding of figure skating and athletics, and should also have a background in understanding dance technique, choreography, and the aesthetics of performance.

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    Well, CanadianSkaterGuy, I think Kevin has very good qualities. He's a hard worker and seemingly a very sweet guy. It's a nice breakthrough for him after being on the scene for awhile. Still, I don't think his skating currently is at top level excellence. He doesn't yet command the ice in the way that Daisuke does. Of course, when Dai makes mistakes and doesn't have as great choreo, his PCS should suffer, but Dai is even with mistakes a much better well-rounded skater than Kevin Reynolds and Javier Fernandez. And, Javi is a better overall skater than Kevin. Hanyu is still quite young, but he has a precocious facility that is quite unique. Kevin has definitely improved his presentation but at this point it's merely on the surface, and he needs to tone down his arm movements for them to have more meaning and impact. Also, of course, Patrick Chan will have something to say about the make-up of the podium at Worlds.

    Frankly, among current competitors, Dai has a charisma, an athleticism, a presence and a performance quality which outshines everyone except Jeremy Abbott. I think part of that reason is that Dai has worked very hard on developing both his athletic and his artistic abilities. He has placed equal emphasis on both and it shows, because when he started out he was mainly just a good athletic skater. I think Dai soaked up the artistic influences of Stephane Lambiel, Jeffrey Buttle, Johnny Weir, and likely past masters, as well as seeking out the advice of ballet dancers and relying on Morosov's input in terms of the ground-breaking rockin' Swan program (although Morosov has been less helpful to Dai this season). Last season, Dai's Camerlengo choreographed programs were absolutely iconic and he also worked hard at getting back his quad with success. But still Dai was dissed by the judges. He took it in stride and is still working hard, but the sad fact will forever be: Dai Takahashi should have won Worlds in 2012.

    What the up-and-coming aspiring skaters with quads need to develop is not only artistic maturity, but presence, true musical interpretation, and a sense of style that they can convey to the audience with confidence and courage that comes with knowing and being comfortable with who they are. It is a progressive journey and it takes time. That is what makes figure skating so challenging, but also very rewarding to skaters and to fans when the destination is reached and on rare occasions, transcended.
    Last edited by Art&Sport; 02-11-2013 at 05:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lavender View Post
    I definitely hope there's more variables at worlds to prevent what happened here at 4CC. I'm just preparing myself to not be surprise by not such great results (imo).
    Yeah. Because what figure skating REALLY needs at this point is for the athletes who outskated the others to be locked off the podium.

    Kevin Reynolds probably wasn't on many people's betting sheet as the gold medalist. But he performed when the others didn't. He absolutely won that competition. A skater who comes out of nowhere to upset the favorites is a GREAT result!

    If the "chosen ones" want those medals, they better be prepared to earn them, because there's a new flock of young guns who will seize the moment.

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