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Thread: 2013 4CC's Mens FS

  1. #331
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    At the 1999 Skate America in Colorado Springs on October 31, 1999, Timothy Goebel became the first skater to land three quadruple jumps in one program. Look how many years it has taken for anyone to match that. I believe Goebel's was two salchows and a toe. Someone posted earlier that Joubert had achieved that too.
    Last edited by Icey; 02-11-2013 at 06:17 PM.

  2. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by lavender View Post
    I definitely hope there's more variables at worlds to prevent what happened here at 4CC. I'm just preparing myself to not be surprise by not such great results (imo).
    Quote Originally Posted by TontoK View Post
    Yeah. Because what figure skating REALLY needs at this point is for the athletes who outskated the others to be locked off the podium.

    Kevin Reynolds probably wasn't on many people's betting sheet as the gold medalist. But he performed when the others didn't. He absolutely won that competition. A skater who comes out of nowhere to upset the favorites is a GREAT result!

    If the "chosen ones" want those medals, they better be prepared to earn them, because there's a new flock of young guns who will seize the moment.

    TontoK, I agree that lavender could have been more specific re what she means by "prevent what happened," because honestly I don't think anyone has said they think Kevin Reynolds didn't deserve to win. Clearly he was the most consistent and he delivered the quads, which is definitely huge. Contrary to your assessment, Kevin did not come out of nowhere. He's been around for awhile now. Plus, he did a great job at Canadian Nationals, so many were eager to see if he could do as consistently well at 4CC. But yes, this is the first time that he performed so well in both programs internationally against heavily favored top medal winners.

    And, the "chosen one" for the prior two seasons has been Kevin's compatriot, Patrick Chan. This season it has been Yuzuru Hanyu. Dai has definitely been in the running and is a strong veteran who won Worlds in 2010, but Dai has not really in my estimation been considered "a chosen one." If that was the case, the judges wouldn't have dissed him at Nice Worlds in 2012.

    Betting sheets don't matter, but better and more consistent judging is what matters. In view of the problems a lot of the men skaters had at 4CC, I don't think better judging would or should have changed the top result, i.e., Kevin winning. He deserved to win among this field based on the performances. But better judging should definitely have changed the way TES and PCS scores were delivered and might have affected the overall placements (aside from Kevin) in both the sp and the lp, as well as kept the scoring levels comparatively reasonable. Without a clear measurable standard, it's impossible to achieve good consistent judging across the board at every event. So the debates will continue.

  3. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icey View Post
    At the 1999 Skate America in Colorado Springs on October 31, 1999, Timothy Goebel became the first skater to land three quadruple jumps in one program. Look how many years it has taken for anyone to match that. I believe Goebel's was two salchows and a toe. Someone posted earlier that Joubert had achieved that too.

    So what? The better questions are why, does it matter, and if so how does that impact the sport as a sport, and where does the balance between art and sport factor in? Also, what about the equipment, physical training strategies and conditioning of athletes? In any case, Fernandez already accomplished 3 quads in a program earlier this season and again at Europeans, and Joubert has definitely achieved the feat more than once. Kevin doing it successfully at his Nationals and at 4CC is a personal accomplishment and noteworthy for which he was handsomely rewarded, but IMO, it's not an historic accomplishment. It's something to cheer and to congratulate, but also to keep within perspective.

    The sport itself is out of balance and no one is making a concerted effort to find the delicate balance between reasonable evolutionary athleticism and superlative artistry. The over-focus on quads and 3 quads in a program is causing further imbalance. Perhaps the most significant question is how many quads are enough? This sport can not be measured in the same way that other sports are measured. Athletic feats in other sports are conducted under very different conditions and performed in relatively short spurts or time periods that are within reason for continuing to maximize athletic difficulty.

    IMO, it will be impossible to continue adding revolutions to jumps in figure skating beyond four or trying to perform more than three quads in a lp, unless other elements within a program are significantly reduced and the required length of programs is also reduced. Already musicality and artistry have been adversely affected by the overemphasis on quad jumps and tacking on of point-grabbing moves that don't make sense to the whole of a well-constructed program. In addition, the fact that figures are not required for all skaters to practice has actually harmed the technical consistency and precision of not only skating skills, but jumps too. In fact, the lack of significant and constructive practice of figures basics is likely a reason why it's hard to push for those extra revolutions, because many skaters are not sound enough in their technique to even properly perform triples. Put that in your pipe and smoke it ISU!

    Whither thou goest, figure skating ...?


    ETA:
    IMO, figure skating should concentrate on improving the technical expertise, endurance, conditioning and artistic performance quality of its athletes, instead of over-focusing on jump revolutions to the detriment of everything else. And as already pointed out ad infinitum: The ISU needs to responsibly, thoughtfully and with exhaustive determination and expert input, repair and reform the judging system for the long term benefit of the skaters and credibility of the sport, not for the short-sighted protection of judges and necessary but ultimately useless attempt to save figure skating's image. True respect is achieved through substantive, beneficial change and matters more than a masked-over image.
    Last edited by Art&Sport; 02-11-2013 at 07:20 PM.

  4. #334
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    Art&Sport, I find your comments informative and interesting.

    I'm not sure I agree with everything you've written, but I absolutely agree that the elimination of the school figures has something to do with the overall lack of controlled and secure skating. The figures should be brought back.

    Now, how's THAT for some old outdated dinosaur thinking!

    ETA: I agree on second read that I might have misinterpreted the exact meaning of a post... but I do think several consider this to be a dud competition because the favorites faltered. Nonsense! A lesser-known skater without stellar international credentials (as opposed to my erroneous "came out of nowhere") skated a lights-out performance and came away with the gold. By all accounts he is a hardworking athlete, and he certainly looked justifiably thrilled at the outcome! That's not a bad situation. Good for him!

    And while we're on the subject, Sarah Hughes deserved her gold medal on that night in SLC, too.
    Last edited by TontoK; 02-11-2013 at 07:57 PM.

  5. #335
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    No figures! Yes, to teaching them for the basics, but no to actually having them in competition. I actually dislike the controlled skating style -- I think it detracts from being able to interpret a program. Since the 80s you see a lot more "themes" and more creativity in the performance. And the transitions mark of PCS does somewhat encourage the retention of intricate steps and turns.

    Quote Originally Posted by TontoK View Post
    Yeah. Because what figure skating REALLY needs at this point is for the athletes who outskated the others to be locked off the podium.

    Kevin Reynolds probably wasn't on many people's betting sheet as the gold medalist. But he performed when the others didn't. He absolutely won that competition. A skater who comes out of nowhere to upset the favorites is a GREAT result!

    If the "chosen ones" want those medals, they better be prepared to earn them, because there's a new flock of young guns who will seize the moment.
    This. Yan and Song also had an excellent competition. For Han Yan to win Junior Worlds and make the podium is an excellent feat.

    I think Dai's a great artist, but he really let the program go with the mistakes (which also was reflected in the PCS). At least at the GPF he showed how the program can be performed to its potential. He really lives his programs, but he's a bit hot and cold when it comes to technically skating well. His jumps are just okay and he lacks the height and flow that Hanyu/Fernandez/Chan have. I had him pegged as a sure top 3 at Worlds, but this competition has compromised that. One would presume that these 2 performances would barely even keep him in the top 10 at Worlds. Better here than at Worlds though, and hopefully he can bounce back.
    Last edited by CanadianSkaterGuy; 02-11-2013 at 07:51 PM.

  6. #336
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    Yes, TontoK, thoughtful reflection is a good thing. It's not a question of whether or not I'm right, or whether any of us are right in our perceptions. The important thing is to look at the current state of affairs in figure skating from a broader perspective, and for people in responsible positions who have a passion and concern for the sport to come together and share ideas and to consider and implement solutions in a positive, forward-thinking and productive way.


    No one said bring figures back for competition, CanadianSkaterGuy. What has been said is that figures are a basic foundation of figure skating, which helps skaters improve technical consistency and blade control. Some of today's skaters have mentioned how devoting even a little bit of time to practicing figures has helped them perform their jumps better. And wonder of wonders, where do people think Patrick Chan's above average SS come from? They come from his early coaches having made him practice figures diligently. The judges have been awe-inspired by Patrick's SS without even realizing just why he's more masterful at ice coverage and blade control than most of his contemporaries. Patrick's figures-based SS are probably also a factor in his ability to have mastered quads so quickly and effectively.

    Han's idol is Patrick Chan, and so Han has probably followed Chan's example in practicing figures as part of his training regimen. Han and Song are both talented, but I think Han right now is exhibiting greater potential to become a complete skater (artistically and athletically).

    Dai's problems likely have more to do with trying to maintain athletic consistency at his age (what with the wear and tear on his body over the years -- don't forget that he came back from a difficult surgery a few years ago). I also think Dai had troubles switching so recently to a new sp, which can sap mental concentration. It was a risk that didn't work out for him at 4CC. As far as Dai's lp, again his mental and physical conditioning may not be where it needs to be at the moment. I don't even know why it was necessary for Dai to compete at 4CC. He should have saved himself for Worlds. But I suppose he didn't pull out of 4CC because it took place in his home country.


    ETA:
    BTW, CanadianSkaterGuy, it's not clear what you mean by "controlled skating style." If skaters don't develop good blade control, they are prone to URs and to performing jump take-offs on the wrong edge. Practicing the basics of figures not only improves edge technique but also helps skaters develop better flow, speed and ice coverage, which in turn leads to better consistency on their jumps.
    Last edited by Art&Sport; 02-11-2013 at 09:08 PM.

  7. #337
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    Well, I'll say bring back figures for competition. I'd say the same for compulsory dances too.

  8. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Well, I'll say bring back figures for competition. I'd say the same for compulsory dances too.
    IDK about the figures, but I certainly would like to see the compulsory dances re-inserted again.

  9. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Well, I'll say bring back figures for competition. I'd say the same for compulsory dances too.
    Actually that would benefit both Patrick and V/M greatly.Don't think some people would like that because Patrick would be way ahead even before the short LOL I actually really miss compulsory dance, and i don't think its just because i used to do them myself. It was such a good way to compare skaters.

  10. #340
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    I'd like to see figures and compulsories introduce in competitions for juniors, for sure, and maybe an international standard qualifying test that all seniors would have to pass (pairs included) before competing on the senior circuit (Senior B's excepted - so GP and ISU championship events)

  11. #341
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    I think figures were okay to be eliminated from competition starting in 1990, but if the sport had been run by wise heads who understood the need to practice figures as a basic foundation, then figures might have been kept as a requirement for all skaters to practice and to be rigorously tested on as part of entry to at least National championships.

    Figures should also have been kept as a separate event/ category for those who were interested or excelled in competing them (but not held as part of regular major events). The reason figures were seen to be a problem was largely because of the difficulty of covering that part of competitions on television, and also the huge additional costs and demands of training time that practicing figures required.

    If figures are brought back, it will likely be only for training and testing, but not as part of competitions. It might be a way to promote the sport though if figures were developed at local club levels for separate competition, especially since they are a basic foundation of figure skating.

  12. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icey View Post
    At the 1999 Skate America in Colorado Springs on October 31, 1999, Timothy Goebel became the first skater to land three quadruple jumps in one program. Look how many years it has taken for anyone to match that. I believe Goebel's was two salchows and a toe. Someone posted earlier that Joubert had achieved that too.
    Takeshi Honda can do it too,
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei80sMT8050

  13. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by TontoK View Post
    Art&Sport, I find your comments informative and interesting.

    I'm not sure I agree with everything you've written, but I absolutely agree that the elimination of the school figures has something to do with the overall lack of controlled and secure skating. The figures should be brought back.

    Now, how's THAT for some old outdated dinosaur thinking!

    ETA: I agree on second read that I might have misinterpreted the exact meaning of a post... but I do think several consider this to be a dud competition because the favorites faltered. Nonsense! A lesser-known skater without stellar international credentials (as opposed to my erroneous "came out of nowhere") skated a lights-out performance and came away with the gold. By all accounts he is a hardworking athlete, and he certainly looked justifiably thrilled at the outcome! That's not a bad situation. Good for him!

    And while we're on the subject, Sarah Hughes deserved her gold medal on that night in SLC, too.
    Maybe she did but it wasn't an awe inspiring moment maybe to o her and her fans. She nevefr had the at special something - sorry to say great skate but she was no personalityl Just a good skate at the right time but she did not transcened the ice. She did her tricks, was feminiene but that's all.

  14. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by Art&Sport View Post
    BTW, CanadianSkaterGuy, it's not clear what you mean by "controlled skating style." If skaters don't develop good blade control, they are prone to URs and to performing jump take-offs on the wrong edge. Practicing the basics of figures not only improves edge technique but also helps skaters develop better flow, speed and ice coverage, which in turn leads to better consistency on their jumps.
    I was alluding to how in the 80's, many of the men would have a distinctive upright posture and stiff arms and more mechanical way of stroking about the ice. I wasn't alluding to edge control.

    Also I wasn't actually saying people were saying bring back figures for competition. I was being facetious (note the ). Perhaps I need to write everything absolutely literally, and omit jokes and smilies from my post, lest you take them the wrong way.

    As far as your prior assertion, there are plenty of skaters with bad skating skills who are still capable of producing quads, so I don't think technique is the main variable. I think adding more revolutions is simply a physics thing and the body can only take so much. A quad is an extremely risky element to begin with. Many are barely capable of the rotation of a quad and triple axel. I can't imagine the torque, height, tightness of rotation, and force on the checkout that higher level quads and even quints would require.
    Last edited by CanadianSkaterGuy; 02-12-2013 at 10:26 AM.

  15. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Well, I'll say bring back figures for competition. I'd say the same for compulsory dances too.
    Well, if you do bring back figures, keep that stuff away from my TV screen for fear of inducing narcolepsy.

    As for CDs, there is a compulsory pattern incorporated into the SD. I actually thought it was a great solution to preserving compulsory techniques and seeing how teams stack up against each other, but still managing to keep the audience awake.

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