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Thread: Should base value for a 3A be higher?

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    Should base value for a 3A be higher?

    Currently, the base value for a triple axel is 8.5. However, in the ladies event, the 3A is so rarely landed cleanly that I don't think 8.5 properly reflects how difficult it is in the ladies event. Only 6 ladies skaters have successfully landed a 3A in competition in the entire history of figure skating, and it has taken Mao a long time to get the 3A back.

    Hence, should the base value for a 3A be increased?
    Last edited by Mao88; 02-09-2013 at 01:38 PM.

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    Sure, raise the base value of the 3A for the ladies and give the one lady who is currently capable of landing it a huge advantage over the rest of the field. But if you're going to do that, why not just write in a rule that says MAO ASADA wins? The lack of success or attempt rates for the 3A in the ladies is not justification in itself to increase the base value for the ladies. There are zero ladies doing quads at the moment, why not increase the base value of the quad for the ladies, because it must be very difficult for a lady to land a quad, therefore we need to give them a bigger incentive to do it?

    Mao's landing of the 3A at 2013 4CCs SP is a great achievement, but I can't agree with the way the rules came about allowing her to attempt it as a solo jump in the SP. If only ONE man was capable of doing quads and the ISU had changed the rules allowing the men to do a solo quad, then that would have been extremely unfair. Countless men had been doing quads for decades before the ISU allowed the men to do a solo quad in the SP out of steps. No ONE male skater was the beneficiary of that rule change. That wasn't the case when the ISU allowed the "ladies" field to attempt a solo 3A in the field, which only affected one skater--Mao Asada.

    With all other requirements in the SP, the ISU has waited--sometimes too long--to make sure that numerous contenders in the field are capable of doing a technical element before allowing it to be done in the SP, so that no one skater had a major advantage over the others. But not with the 3A for the ladies. And that's just not fair to the rest of the field.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaylee View Post
    Sure, raise the base value of the 3A for the ladies and give the one lady who is currently capable of landing it a huge advantage over the rest of the field. But if you're going to do that, why not just write in a rule that says MAO ASADA wins? The lack of success or attempt rates for the 3A in the ladies is not justification in itself to increase the base value for the ladies. There are zero ladies doing quads at the moment, why not increase the base value of the quad for the ladies, because it must be very difficult for a lady to land a quad, therefore we need to give them a bigger incentive to do it?

    Mao's landing of the 3A at 2013 4CCs SP is a great achievement, but I can't agree with the way the rules came about allowing her to attempt it as a solo jump in the SP. If only ONE man was capable of doing quads and the ISU had changed the rules allowing the men to do a solo quad, then that would have been extremely unfair. Countless men had been doing quads for decades before the ISU allowed the men to do a solo quad in the SP out of steps. No ONE male skater was the beneficiary of that rule change. That wasn't the case when the ISU allowed the "ladies" field to attempt a solo 3A in the field, which only affected one skater--Mao Asada.

    With all other requirements in the SP, the ISU has waited--sometimes too long--to make sure that numerous contenders in the field are capable of doing a technical element before allowing it to be done in the SP, so that no one skater had a major advantage over the others. But not with the 3A for the ladies. And that's just not fair to the rest of the field.
    SP used to be called tech program, I don't think allowing 3A in SP is bad or unfair in anyway, They should even allow 4A on men.

    Using the same logic,
    How many ladies can land more than one clean three lutz in free skater nowaday, should second Lutz be prohibited in lady long program?

    Mao 3A is not even consistent in the first place, it not like she gain a lot of advantage. 3A value is even less than 3L - 3T
    Last edited by treeloving; 02-09-2013 at 08:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by treeloving View Post
    SP used to be called tech program, I don't think allowing 3A in SP is bad or unfair in anyway, They should even allow 4A on men.

    Using the same logic,
    How many ladies can land more than one clean three lutz in free skater nowaday, should second Lutz be prohibited in lady long program?
    Hmm, you're not setting up your example properly. Using the same logic, since we're not seeing an abundance of true lutzes in the ladies nowadays, should the ISU allow a third lutz to be attempted in the ladies long program, exempt from the Zayak rule? That would only benefit ladies who have a true lutz. And we wouldn't want that, now would we?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaylee View Post
    Hmm, you're not setting up your example properly. Using the same logic, since we're not seeing an abundance of true lutzes in the ladies nowadays, should the ISU allow a third lutz to be attempted in the ladies long program, exempt from the Zayak rule? That would only benefit ladies who have a true lutz. And we wouldn't want that, now would we?
    Well, they should not allow third lutz otherwise the program will mainly based on this jump, 3A is different because you still have to land more variety kind of triple than if you have three 3lutz in the program.

    BTW, let agree to disagree!

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    Custom Title starryxskies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaylee View Post
    Mao's landing of the 3A at 2013 4CCs SP is a great achievement, but I can't agree with the way the rules came about allowing her to attempt it as a solo jump in the SP. If only ONE man was capable of doing quads and the ISU had changed the rules allowing the men to do a solo quad, then that would have been extremely unfair. Countless men had been doing quads for decades before the ISU allowed the men to do a solo quad in the SP out of steps. No ONE male skater was the beneficiary of that rule change. That wasn't the case when the ISU allowed the "ladies" field to attempt a solo 3A in the field, which only affected one skater--Mao Asada.

    With all other requirements in the SP, the ISU has waited--sometimes too long--to make sure that numerous contenders in the field are capable of doing a technical element before allowing it to be done in the SP, so that no one skater had a major advantage over the others. But not with the 3A for the ladies. And that's just not fair to the rest of the field.
    Then maybe the ladies should start to play catch up and train the 3A. I don't see why any lady with a 3A should be be held back just because their peers can't do what they can do. This is a competitive sport, you're not supposed to hold hands and take the leap together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaylee View Post
    Mao's landing of the 3A at 2013 4CCs SP is a great achievement, but I can't agree with the way the rules came about allowing her to attempt it as a solo jump in the SP. If only ONE man was capable of doing quads and the ISU had changed the rules allowing the men to do a solo quad, then that would have been extremely unfair. Countless men had been doing quads for decades before the ISU allowed the men to do a solo quad in the SP out of steps. No ONE male skater was the beneficiary of that rule change. That wasn't the case when the ISU allowed the "ladies" field to attempt a solo 3A in the field, which only affected one skater--Mao Asada.
    I believe it was unfair to Asada not being able to do a 3A instead of the 2A until 2010-211 season. How is it supposed for this sport to move forward by restricting the technical content? To me they should allow even a 4Axel. It doesn't matter nobody can do it now but if it is allowed, it encourages skaters to try it(don't take the 4Axel example literally).
    It's unfair that pairs are not allowed to do a 4twist in the SP IMO.

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    Just curious, what is the history of 3A BV over the last few years? I thought it increase many times already, it even has its own GOE values while everyone else triple is reduced by 30%. So not only does it increased, every other jumps were held back by 30% GOEs. Plus the ridiculous 70% UR roles means now an UR 3A is almost the same as a fully rotated 3Lz.

    How much is enough? How much is too much?

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    No it shouldn't. It's been increased already.

    There's only a handful of female skaters in the history of the sport who were capable of landing a triple axel so I don't think that it's the score being too low that is an issue here.
    Last edited by Ziggy; 02-09-2013 at 09:27 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by starryxskies View Post
    Then maybe the ladies should start to play catch up and train the 3A. I don't see why any lady with a 3A should be be held back just because their peers can't do what they can do. This is a competitive sport, you're not supposed to hold hands and take the leap together.
    Mao wasn't being held back by the rules in the SP regarding the 3A. She was being held back by her own lack of consistency with the 3/3 and her inability to do a triple lutz in the SP--she had her 3/3 in the SP downgraded several times in the 2008-2009 season and/or kept doubling the lutz in the SP--very costly errors. That's why she switched it the following season to remove the lutz and to replace the 3/3 with a 3A combo. And now the solo 3A in the SP, when successfully executed, more than compensates for the absence of the 3/3 and lutz.

    No one has to hold hands and take the leap together, but the rules and purpose of the SP are different than for the FP. As I said above, the men weren't allowed to do a solo 3A or quad in the SP until numerous skaters proved themselves capable of taking advantage of it; why did the ISU veer from historical precedent for the ladies in regards to the 3A in the SP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mirunna View Post
    I believe it was unfair to Asada not being able to do a 3A instead of the 2A until 2010-211 season. How is it supposed for this sport to move forward by restricting the technical content? To me they should allow even a 4Axel. It doesn't matter nobody can do it now but if it is allowed, it encourages skaters to try it(don't take the 4Axel example literally).
    It's unfair that pairs are not allowed to do a 4twist in the SP IMO.
    The sport as a whole is not moving forward by giving one skater an advantage in the SP over everyone else. Mao always had an advantage with the 3A in the FS, where either a 2A or a 3A fulfilled the axel requirement. However, she couldn't take maximum advantage of it because in the 2009-2010 season, she decided to omit the lutz and salchow, so she still needed a 2A to take up a jumping pass. She could have boosted her base value in the SP in the 2009-2010 season further by attempting a lutz instead of a flip, but she didn't. Mao's own weaknesses with jumps other than the 3A held her back, not the rules.

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    Excuse me Jaylee, I thought we were discussing the issue of the 3A - not what was holding Mao back. Notice that I used "any lady who has a 3A" because I'm actually talking about any lady with a 3A. For example, if Suzuki had a 3A, I don't see why she shouldn't be allowed to showcase that in the SP. And the rule allows that - which I'm saying is fair. If Mao didn't have the 3A, then she'll just need to work harder and get it. Result?! The sport WILL be moving forward. This is what has happened with the Mens and the quad. These guys are fighting to land the next quad flip, etc. If the SP was called technical program to show your technical abilities, how does the ability to do the 3A not fit into this category?

    Just because something is tradition, doesn't mean it's fair. Just because in the past, a lot of men were able to do the quad before it was allowed as a single element, doesn't mean it that was fair either.

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    Forever stuck on those steps Li'Kitsu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaylee
    Mao wasn't being held back by the rules in the SP regarding the 3A. She was being held back by her own lack of consistency with the 3/3 and her inability to do a triple lutz in the SP--she had her 3/3 in the SP downgraded several times in the 2008-2009 season and/or kept doubling the lutz in the SP--very costly errors. That's why she switched it the following season to remove the lutz and to replace the 3/3 with a 3A combo. And now the solo 3A in the SP, when successfully executed, more than compensates for the absence of the 3/3 and lutz.

    No one has to hold hands and take the leap together, but the rules and purpose of the SP are different than for the FP. As I said above, the men weren't allowed to do a solo 3A or quad in the SP until numerous skaters proved themselves capable of taking advantage of it; why did the ISU veer from historical precedent for the ladies in regards to the 3A in the SP?
    Sorry to say it like that, but pretty much everything you wrote is cringe-worthy.
    Skaters have different strengths, some are better with 3-3's, some with other jump0s, for example the 3A. Why does it make sense to you that skaters with a 3-3-should have a general advantage in the SP and the LP, but a 3A - being an extremly tough element, seldomly landed by a female - should not be allowed to give someone an advantage over other women without a 3A in the SP and LP? Saying someone has to do a 2A while she's capable of the harder element is just that: holding her back.
    Yes, it would have been better for Mao if she would have been capable of a consistent 3-3. Does that change the fact that a required 2A limits her when she would be capable of more? No. So if she does have a 3-3 or not has nothing to do with the 3A issue here.

    So it took the ISU way too long to allow men to do quads as the solo jump in the SP. That was a mistake and they should have changed it earlier. But because of that they need to be unfair towards the ladies now too?
    You're saying it like: the SP needs to reward skaters who have that exact set of skills (3-3, clean lutz). Other sets of skills (3A f.e.), should not be rewarded.
    So Mao is the only woman in the world now who can (at least with a certain success rate) land a 3A? How unfair towards all other woman not capable of a 3A that she's allowed to jump it in the SP!

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    Custom Title mary01's Avatar
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    if we hoping to see more woman daring to attempt the 3A, the base value should definitely be higher, it's just such a difficult element and the points given just don't reflect it's difficulty, why would any skater go through the trouble of practicing it and risking bad injury if the base value doesn't reflect it's difficulty!

    and I think it was VERY unfair rule to prohibit a woman to attempt the 3A in the sp, when the 3-3 was allowed!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Li'Kitsu View Post
    Skaters have different strengths, some are better with 3-3's, some with other jump0s, for example the 3A. Why does it make sense to you that skaters with a 3-3-should have a general advantage in the SP and the LP, but a 3A - being an extremly tough element, seldomly landed by a female - should not be allowed to give someone an advantage over other women without a 3A in the SP and LP?
    It does give that skater an advantage, all else being equal.

    It doesn't and shouldn't guarantee a win if another skater is better at most of the 6 other SP elements and/or at program components.

    Quads are now worth quite a bit more in base mark than triple lutz or triple flip. But they don't give men a huge advantage in the SP if they can't put a triple toe afterward with good quality or perform them straight out steps or other connecting moves. That's one reason why the value of the quads was raised a few years ago.

    Even a solo, telegraphed quad is still an advantage in a long program.

    Now, suppose we have a hypothetical female skater who can land a clean quad. Let's even say it's a quad salchow, which is worth even more than quad toe.

    Is it unfair to the quad skater that she is not currently allowed to do it anywhere in the short program? Well, yes, compared to the skater who is allowed to do triple axel in the short (as the combination or jump out of steps, if not the solo axel). But compared to all the other skaters who can't do either of those >3-revolution jumps, both have a big advantage in the LP as long as they can make use of it there.

    Would quad girl still have a disadvantage if she's allowed to do a 4S+2T combo in the short (because she can't do 4S+3T), or solo 4S out of simple steps, and still loses to someone who has neither a quad nor a 3A because they're better at other things?

    Is the answer to that, raise the value of the quad even further, give different values for women than for men, so that the skater with the hardedst jump will automatically win and GOEs or well-rounded skill sets don't matter?

    Saying someone has to do a 2A while she's capable of the harder element is just that: holding her back.
    And yet, as of 1998 all the men who could do triple axels were still required to do 2A in the short program. They did the 3A in the combination there, and the top guys pushed each other to do 3A+3T. It wasn't until short program competitions were ending up with four or five clean 3A+3T programs, and several guys were landing quads and quad combinations in the long program, that 3A as the solo axel (and quad out of steps) was allowed in the SP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by treeloving View Post
    Mao 3A is not even consistent in the first place, it not like she gain a lot of advantage. 3A value is even less than 3L - 3T
    I don't agree. 3a2t's value point is higher than 3lz3t → yeah, i agree.
    but... "3a base point should be higher than 3lz3t" Nonsense
    3a is almost difficult jump, but 3lz-3t is that connects two triple jumps, also belong to the high level even among 33combinations.
    3a score is higher than 3toe- 3toe. I think it's suitable
    factor of goe is 100%, only triple axel.
    And, in old scoring system, Ito Midori had 3a and 5 kind of triple jumps, but can not beat kristy yamaguchi

    3a's the value point was continuously increased.
    3A  7.5  → 7.5  → 8.2  → 8.5 (<6.0)  

    It is enough, quite enough

    3a jumper should be an unbeatable?
    Last edited by venlac; 02-09-2013 at 01:48 PM.

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