Should base value for a 3A be higher? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Should base value for a 3A be higher?

jaylee

Medalist
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Excuse me Jaylee, I thought we were discussing the issue of the 3A - not what was holding Mao back. Notice that I used "any lady who has a 3A" because I'm actually talking about any lady with a 3A. For example, if Suzuki had a 3A, I don't see why she shouldn't be allowed to showcase that in the SP. And the rule allows that - which I'm saying is fair. If Mao didn't have the 3A, then she'll just need to work harder and get it. Result?! The sport WILL be moving forward. This is what has happened with the Mens and the quad. These guys are fighting to land the next quad flip, etc. If the SP was called technical program to show your technical abilities, how does the ability to do the 3A not fit into this category?

I don't think I misunderstood you. You stated that you didn't "see why any lady with a 3A should be be held back just because their peers can't do what they can do." My point was that Mao--a lady with a 3A--was not being held back by the rules, just her own limitations with jumps other than the 3A, and she had to rely heavily--too much--on the 3A for success. She started attempting a 3A combo in the SP _after_ she had troubles with the 3/3 in the SP. The rule regarding the 2A in the SP was never an issue until Mao began attempting a 3A combo in the SP in the 2009-2010 season. Then ALL OF A SUDDEN, the rule needed to change. Well, I don't think that was right.

The sport was moving forward just fine with the 2A/3A option in the free program. The short program is not about showcasing whatever stuff a skater is capable of, as long as it's difficult--in that case, let's just have the jumping passes allow for a solo 3A, 3A combo, and another 3A out of steps. That would be more difficult than what the current ladies are doing--why not allow them to do whatever they want without any restrictions at all in the SP? What is the point of required elements then?

Sorry to say it like that, but pretty much everything you wrote is cringe-worthy.
Skaters have different strengths, some are better with 3-3's, some with other jumps. For example the 3A. Why does it make sense to you that skaters with a 3-3-should have a general advantage in the SP and the LP, but a 3A - being an extremly tough element, seldomly landed by a female - should not be allowed to give someone an advantage over other women woithout a 3A in the SP and LP? Saying someone has to do a 2A while she's capable of the harder element is just that: holding her back.

There is a huge difference between the rule allowing the ladies to do a 3/3 in the SP versus the rule allowing the ladies to do a 3A in the SP. When the ISU allowed the ladies to do a 3/3 in the SP (or, allowing them to do the triple out of footwork some years earlier), there were numerous ladies who had proven themselves capable of doing so. When was it, 1996-1997? It was during that quad. Ladies had already been doing 3/3s in the FS at that point since the 1980s.

The rules allowing the ladies to do a 3/3 in the SP were never passed to give one skater an advantage over the rest of the field, because it was proven that quite a few ladies could do a 3/3 already. But you can't say the same regarding the rule regarding the 3A. Fact: only one lady was capable of landing a 3A at the time that the rule was passed allowing her to attempt it in the SP. Fact: the ISU did not allow the men to attempt solo quads or solo 3As in the SP until multiple men were successfully doing them already; same is true regarding ladies and the 3/3 in the SP. If the truth makes you cringe, so be it. Facts are facts.

So it took the ISU way too long to allow men to do quads as the solo jump in the SP. That was a mistake and they should have changed it earlier. But because of that they need to be unfair towards the ladies now too?

The situations are not comparable at all. It would not have been unfair to the ladies at all if they had not passed that rule, since unlike the men and quads they hadn't proven that multiple ladies skaters could land a 3A. :confused: This rule was passed in the summer of 2010, and it hasn't benefited anyone but Mao Asada--thereby proving my point that this rule gives only her an advantage and was done solely for her benefit.

You're saying it like: the SP needs to reward skaters who have that exact set of skills (3-3, clean lutz). Other sets of skills (3A f.e.), should not be rewarded.
So Mao is the only woman in the world now who can (at least with a certain success rate) land a 3A? How unfair towards all other woman not capable of a 3A that she's allowed to jump it in the SP!:rolleye:

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. A 3/3 and a lutz are not the only elements that need to be rewarded, but enough ladies can do them that allowing the ladies to attempt a triple/triple in the SP doesn't give any one a serious advantage over the others on paper--which should make for a good competition in the SP. The minimum requirements in the SP at the senior level shouldn't be too low or so easy that it's not distinguishable from the junior level, but you don't want the maximum allowed elements in the SP to be so high and unique that only one or two skaters can take advantage and benefit. At least, that was how the ISU has otherwise acted in the history of required elements for the SP.

The rules allowing for a 3/3 and a triple out of footwork in the SP weren't passed to reward any specific skater, and the higher base value for a clean lutz also wasn't made to benefit any specific skater. That's the way it should be. Look at the rule for bonuses in the back-half of the SP--Hanyu is the one skater who took the maximum advantage of it, and used it to shatter the world record this season. However, no one could argue that this rule was created to benefit just Hanyu. That rule was fairly made because too many skaters were frontloading their SP even while they were capable of moving jumps to the back half of the SP.

I am not arguing that the 3A shouldn't be rewarded, but rather that the rule allowing for it in the SP shouldn't have been implemented because it was only done for one skater.

Mao is a great all-around skater and her 3A is not her only strength. But to answer the question of this thread, there's no need to keep increasing the value of the 3A to increase the advantage of a ladies skater who can do a 3A over the rest of the ladies field--there are enough advantages to that jump already.

It's only fair to have the rules favor Mao this time around, considering how ridiculously in favor of Yuna they were 3 years ago, when doing 3 double axels could potentially net you 6.5 points EACH and if you underrotated a 3A by 91 degrees you'd get credit for a bad double axel.

The rules 3 years ago were not made with either Mao or Yu-Na in mind. Allowing 3 2As in the FS was not a rule change intended to favor Yu-Na. That's a big difference. The DG rules were too harsh but it wasn't done to punish Mao or advantage Yu-Na; no one in 2006 was predicting it to be an issue for Mao because at the time she wasn't struggling with downgrades.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Base value for triple Axel should be 9.9. :) Each extra revolution = multiply by three.

1A = 1.1, 2A = 3.3, 3A = 9.9.

1Lz = 0.67, 2Lz = 2.0, 3Lz = 6.0, 4Lz = 18.0 :yes:
 

venlac

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Base value for triple Axel should be 9.9. :) Each extra revolution = multiply by three.

1A = 1.1, 2A = 3.3, 3A = 9.9.

1Lz = 0.67, 2Lz = 2.0, 3Lz = 6.0, 4Lz = 18.0 :yes:

now,
1A=1.1 2A=3.3 3A=8.5
1lz=0.6 2lz=2.1 3lz=6.0 4lz=13.6
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Even without raising the base value a skater with a triple Axel has a big advantage. In the short program, suppose that imaginary hypothetical skater A can do a triple Axel (out of steps) but does not do a triple Lutz or a triple-triple of any kind. She does:

3A = 8.5
3F+2Lo = 7.1
3Lo = 5.1

Total = 20.7 (not counting second half bonuses)

Imaginary hypothetical skater B does

3Lz+3T = 10.0
3F = 5.3
2A = 3.3

Total = 18.6

Now suppose both skaters get +1 GOE across the board on all jumps.

GOE for skater A = 2.4

GOE for skater B = 1.9

Skater A wins by 2.6 points, 23.1 to 20.5.
 

venlac

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
It's only fair to have the rules favor Mao this time around, considering how ridiculously in favor of Yuna they were 3 years ago, when doing 3 double axels could potentially net you 6.5 points EACH and if you underrotated a 3A by 91 degrees you'd get credit for a bad double axel. In fact, I could easily argue that the rules haven't been changed enough. The ISU effectively killed 3-3Lo combinations 4 years ago and have done nothing to reverse that trend. Another thing is that people argue that a 3Lz-2T should be worth more than a 3T-3T and a 3A-2T should be worth more than a 3Lz-3T.

3loop point is similar with 3flip, 2loop point became same with 2flip. Yeah, loop and flip is became the almost same level jump.
loop is only jump that kim cannot do, and also it's the highest success rate of among Asada's jumps.(almost 90%)
i dont know reason, but 1A base points +0.3, and to judgement loose on the underrotated jump, the 70% rule come in. the 3a's base score is increased(higher than 3t3t) and a factor of goe 100%.

I think JSF's effort is enough.

And I predict the end of the season, the 3a's base point is going to rise again
This time, Perhaps they get rid of the difference flip and lutz? I've heard rumors that the Japan Federation plan.
sorry, just a joke...
 
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CarneAsada

Medalist
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
I just can't stop laughing with the nickname of "CarneAsada".

It has a very very very funny meaning in portuguese.

Is "CarneAsada" brazilian or from Portugal?
No, I took my username from Spanish; does it mean something different in Portuguese? :biggrin:

3loop point is similar with 3flip, 2loop point became same with 2flip. Yeah, loop and flip is became the almost same level jump.
loop is only jump that kim cannot do, and also it's the highest success rate of among Asada's jumps.(almost 90%)
i dont know reason, but 1A base points +0.3, and to judgement loose on the underrotated jump, the 70% rule come in. the 3a's base score is increased(higher than 3t3t) and a factor of goe 100%.

I think JSF's effort is enough.

And I predict the end of the season, the 3a's base point is going to rise again
This time, Perhaps they get rid of the difference flip and lutz? I've heard rumors that the Japan Federation plan.
sorry, just a joke...

Oh yes, get rid of the difference between flip and lutz because that's clearly what the nefarious all-powerful JSF is aiming for, right? :sarcasm: Never mind the fact that the value of a triple Lutz hasn't been touched for years and now there's an even bigger gap between it and the triple flip. Or the fact that Mao in her free repeats the flip with its now-reduced base value. Would you rather have a flip close to the value of the loop, or would you rather have it close to the value of the Lutz and remove Yu-Na's biggest weapon?
 
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ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
No, they shouldn't.

A skater that can land a triple axel already has a huge advantage over those that can't. I don't believe that advantage should be insurmountable
 

venlac

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Oh yes, get rid of the difference between flip and lutz because that's clearly what the nefarious all-powerful JSF is aiming for, right? :sarcasm:

no~ why so serious it's just a joke :biggrin:

Never mind the fact that the value of a triple Lutz hasn't been touched for years and now there's an even bigger gap between it and the triple flip. Or the fact that Mao in her free repeats the flip with its now-reduced base value. Would you rather have a flip close to the value of the loop, or would you rather have it close to the value of the Lutz and remove Yu-Na's biggest weapon?

are you complaint that triple lutz's base point? More and more, skater do not try to 3lutz base point is low compared to the difficult.
even in GPF sp, there was not 3lz anywhere in top 5 ladies :rolleye:
and after rule changed, skaters jump many loop. because compared to the difficult, 3f and 3lo's base point is not much difference.
I want to you take a look at the skaters's jump trend after rule changing. Then everything becomes clear. ;)
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
I think if the 3axel is going to be raised, I'd also than arise the point value of the other triples especially the lutz. I'd also like to see 3/3s rewarded more in the short... I DID think Mao deserved more credit for her 3axel/2toe than she got at the Olympics..

I could support a 3axel being treated like a quad (for the ladies point wise) but that would be if the 3lutz (which is becoming very rare) was also rewarded. And things like having harder jumps and harder combos were rewarded too.

And considering the 3lutz is all but disappearing in short programs everywhere does show its not properly rewarded.
 

Krislite

Medalist
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
I think if the 3axel is going to be raised, I'd also than arise the point value of the other triples especially the lutz. I'd also like to see 3/3s rewarded more in the short... I DID think Mao deserved more credit for her 3axel/2toe than she got at the Olympics..

I could support a 3axel being treated like a quad (for the ladies point wise) but that would be if the 3lutz (which is becoming very rare) was also rewarded. And things like having harder jumps and harder combos were rewarded too.

And considering the 3lutz is all but disappearing in short programs everywhere does show its not properly rewarded.

I agree. If we're going to be fair and want to push the technical aspect forward, boosting the value of 3/3's will go a longer way than boosting the already highly valued 3Axel, which as of now benefits only one female skater. On the other hand, more than a handful of girls can do 3/3's, even difficult ones like 3Lz+3T.
 

mateusp1

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 11, 2012
No, I took my username from Spanish; does it mean something different in Portuguese? :biggrin:


Well, let me explain...

The word "Mao" in portuguese has the same pronuciation of "mal", a portuguese world that means "badly, barely, bad".

"Asada" in portuguese has the same pronuciation of "assada", a world that means "roast"(from the verb "to roast").

This word "assada" in portuguese is totally related to food.

If you join "Mao+Asada"(pronunciated "mal assada") in portuguese you would have something that would mean like "badly roast"(don't know this does mean in english),"undercooked", "underdone" or "rare"(when you ask for a "rare" beef, for example).

If you say in portuguese that you want a steak that is "mal assada"(Mao Asada), you are basically saying that you want a "rare steak"

Then, we have the word "carne", that, in portuguese, means "beef" or "steak".

When you say "Carne Assada"(in portuguese), it means "roast beef" or something like "barbecue".

Another funny thing is that some brazilian figure skating fans, sometimes, calls "Bem Asada", which means "well done"(not rare). Another funny thing is when some brazilian skating fans also says "mal(Mao) cozida", which means "badly baked"(to bake, when you put some food to be cooked in the oven). "Cozida" in portuguese means "to be cooked in an oven".

LOL
 
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bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
I agree. If we're going to be fair and want to push the technical aspect forward, boosting the value of 3/3's will go a longer way than boosting the already highly valued 3Axel, which as of now benefits only one female skater. On the other hand, more than a handful of girls can do 3/3's, even difficult ones like 3Lz+3T.

But there's something to be said still for any athlete being able to do something others can't do. Its unfortunate that there wasn't something special that Mao could have gotten for making history like she did at the Olympics...(girl did a 3axel/2toe at the Olympics) it was amazing and not properly rewarded. I think I'd have still had Yu-na ahead over all, and yes Kim deserves her Olympic win but they should have been closer IMO. Kim's 3lutz/3toe is not properly appreciated either. I believe she was the only one there who actually executed that difficult of a combination. Considering the level of the ladies now, I think Kim deserves more credit for how good SHE was technically....

In general except for a 3axel/2toe (I do think the difficulty of the first jump should have more consideration in any combo) I absolutely do think right now the 3axel is more properly rewarded with Asada able to do her 3axel alone. I'm of the opinion if you can do something no one else can do why shouldn't you be rewarded????

However, I'm concerned about the rest of the jumps too and I'd support the 3axel being raised if the other jumps are raised as well....Especially the 3lutz..At the end of the day Kim did her forte difficult 3/3, and Asada did her forte a 3axel both girls deserved rewards over the rest for this..
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
What really matters is the differential between jumps. The value of other jumps needs to be lowered. The reward for the big jumps when you hit them is already plenty high enough in comparison to non-jump elements and PCS.
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
What really matters is the differential between jumps. The value of other jumps needs to be lowered. The reward for the big jumps when you hit them is already plenty high enough in comparison to non-jump elements and PCS.


Its hard for me to think jumps are rewarded enough when we see the results we are getting like Lepisto's bronze etc....Or Asada's win over Suzuki at NHK.
 

Li'Kitsu

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
gkelly said:
It doesn't and shouldn't guarantee a win if another skater is better at most of the 6 other SP elements and/or at program components.

And I never said it should. It definitly shouldn't. I was completly referring to jaylee who seems to make this a Mao-based discussion, but for the thread title: no, the BV shouldn't be increased.
Does Mao's 3A make her invincible now? Hardly. Yes, it gives her an advantage regarding the BV, but that difference can be made up with better non-jump elements and/or PCS. If a skater is better in jumping quality, non-jump elements, PCS they still can beat Mao. That's why I don't think she's beat Yuna or Caroline in an SP head to head just yet.

Now if you want to make it a point that she doesn't have to do the steps leading into the 3A, that's true. Doing the other single jumps, you have too. But then, it could be argued again ladies don't have to do steps into their 2A's either...

And again, the argument "but it wasn't allowed for men to do quads in the SP". Jaylee, that still sounds like your only point to me too. I don't get why this is suppoessed to be an argument at all. The thing is: it should have been allowed for the men way earlier. Why is it fair if many can to that element, but unfair if it's only one person? Isn't that unfair towards that one person who can do that element? If she's allowed to do that element or not depends on how many other ladies can do it. Meh.
I agree with what's been said before: if there is just one person capable of a 4-4 combo, let them do it. If someone can do a 4A, let them.
Besides that, the main advantage a 3A has is the possibility of an 8-triple FS. But that goes over to the point that I think the Zayak rule is uselessly strict here.

jaylee said:
The rules allowing the ladies to do a 3/3 in the SP were never passed to give one skater an advantage over the rest of the field, because it was proven that quite a few ladies could do a 3/3 already. But you can't say the same regarding the rule regarding the 3A. Fact: only one lady was capable of landing a 3A at the time that the rule was passed allowing her to attempt it in the SP. Fact: the ISU did not allow the men to attempt solo quads or solo 3As in the SP until multiple men were successfully doing them already; same is true regarding ladies and the 3/3 in the SP. If the truth makes you cringe, so be it. Facts are facts.

Allowing 3-3's in the SP is still giving some skaters an advantage over others, those who don't have a 3-3. And the point is: that's how it should be.
And no, it's not the facts that make me cringe. It's your continuieng interpretation of the allowance of a 3A instead of the 2A in the SP to be purely made to benefit Mao. Sounds very political to me. And that is not a fact - it's your way to put it. Having to do a 2A when you are capable of a 3A is not right - if there is one, ten, or hundreds of skaters affected by that. And I'm saying that completly unrelated to who that skater is.

bekalc said:
I'd also like to see 3/3s rewarded more in the short

That's a really good point too. 3-3's just being the sum of the single jumps point-wise isn't giving them enough credit (like 3L+3T and 3F = 3F+3T and 3L, when it shouldn't be like that). But that really should be changed unrelated to the 3A, and I still think it's BV is fine as it is. That would also apply to Mathman'sexample I guess - skater B does the harder combination, and that's the point in that programm where she doesn't get rewarded enough. That's why skater A is with more points ahead than she should be, IMO.
 

fscric

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 28, 2004
If Mao hadn't landed that 3A and got ratified, this thread would not appear. But I would not expect anything less from the OP.
 

Bartek

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 29, 2009
I'm sorry but jaylee's argument is simply stupid - Mao is the only skater who can do a 3A so it should be prohibited because it benefits only her. This is exlactly the reason why the jump should be allowed. If she's the only one, let her do it, let's admire it because it's so difficult and reward it. Reward the risk, upping the ante and the difficulty. It doesn't matter how many skaters can do it. The fact that that there is only one even attempting that jump speaks for itself.

Jaylee's argument is like: let's think about. Only one skater can do it? Hmmm, that must be difficult right? So what should be done? Reward this challenging element? No, let's prohibit that, discourage. Just like we did with Miki Ando's highly difficult 3Lz+3Lo's. Technical regress instead of the development.

According to jaylee 3/3 among the ladies were allowed only when a lot of skaters could do it. The same with quads among the men. And only then can we allow ladies to perform 3A in SP - when there will be plenty of them. But how can the ladies be ecnoured to do 3A and actually even think about learning this jump and later on attempting it if it would be illicit?
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Its hard for me to think jumps are rewarded enough when we see the results we are getting like Lepisto's bronze etc....Or Asada's win over Suzuki at NHK.

Well like I said it's about the differential. The easier jumps need to be worth less.

Those bad results you mentioned were the result of poor judging of the PCS and overly harsh underrotation calls, though.
 
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