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Thread: Should base value for a 3A be higher?

  1. #16
    Six Point Zero Krislite's Avatar
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    This is a endless debate. We had this discussion way back before Vancouver, and now that the 3Axel is not only allowed as a solo jump in the SP, but also has a HIGHER base value than before, still people are complaining it's not valued high enough. It's not enough that GOE's get factored lower for triples, too, except for the triple Axel. Jeesh...

    In any case, it's interesting how this quad is playing out. If trends continue it seems Vancouver is gonna be all about Mao's 3Axels vs. Yuna's triple-triples, this time with the rules clearly favoring Mao.

  2. #17
    Spiral Lover tulosai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Li'Kitsu View Post

    So it took the ISU way too long to allow men to do quads as the solo jump in the SP. That was a mistake and they should have changed it earlier. But because of that they need to be unfair towards the ladies now too?
    You're saying it like: the SP needs to reward skaters who have that exact set of skills (3-3, clean lutz). Other sets of skills (3A f.e.), should not be rewarded.
    So Mao is the only woman in the world now who can (at least with a certain success rate) land a 3A? How unfair towards all other woman not capable of a 3A that she's allowed to jump it in the SP!
    This is the crux of what I think. I think it was a mistake to not allow elements because not everyone could do them and I am glad this is being fixed now. IMO anything should go jump-wise and if only one person can do it, then so be it. As someone else said, it is a competitive sport, not a group hug.

    Therefore (again IMO) if a woman can do a solo quad jump in the SP it should be allowed. If a woman can do a quad-double in the SP it should be allowed. If a man can do a quad-quad it should be allowed. Let the (technical) cream rise. Why try to keep people close together in the short by forbidding certain jumps if they can be done? IMO if someone can do those jumps, they deserve to be ahead.

    Not everyone can do Caroline Z's pearl spin (think when it was great, not now). In fact, no one could, at least not like her. It wasn't forbidden. Jumps IMO should not be different.

    As to the title of the thread I think the current BV for the jump is ok.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krislite View Post
    This is a endless debate. We had this discussion way back before Vancouver, and now that the 3Axel is not only allowed as a solo jump in the SP, but also has a HIGHER base value than before, still people are complaining it's not valued high enough. It's not enough that GOE's get factored lower for triples, too, except for the triple Axel. Jeesh...

    In any case, it's interesting how this quad is playing out. If trends continue it seems Vancouver is gonna be all about Mao's 3Axels vs. Yuna's triple-triples, this time with the rules clearly favoring Mao.
    It's only fair to have the rules favor Mao this time around, considering how ridiculously in favor of Yuna they were 3 years ago, when doing 3 double axels could potentially net you 6.5 points EACH and if you underrotated a 3A by 91 degrees you'd get credit for a bad double axel. In fact, I could easily argue that the rules haven't been changed enough. The ISU effectively killed 3-3Lo combinations 4 years ago and have done nothing to reverse that trend. Another thing is that people argue that a 3Lz-2T should be worth more than a 3T-3T and a 3A-2T should be worth more than a 3Lz-3T.

  4. #19
    Six Point Zero Krislite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarneAsada View Post
    It's only fair to have the rules favor Mao this time around, considering how ridiculously in favor of Yuna they were 3 years ago, when doing 3 double axels could potentially net you 6.5 points EACH and if you underrotated a 3A by 91 degrees you'd get credit for a bad double axel. In fact, I could easily argue that the rules haven't been changed enough. The ISU effectively killed 3-3Lo combinations 4 years ago and have done nothing to reverse that trend. Another thing is that people argue that a 3Lz-2T should be worth more than a 3T-3T and a 3A-2T should be worth more than a 3Lz-3T.
    What? Are you telling me Mao couldn't do 3 double Axels back then? That rule favored EVERY skater. It was Mao's team's decision not to take advantage of it. Unlike the solo 3Axel rule, which favors only one particular skater at the moment. If anything it's 3/3's that are highly undervalued. But that's a whole another argument.

    Even if the rules favored Yuna back in the day (which I would dispute), two wrongs don't make a right. It's not "fair" to Mao or any skater to give favors at all.

  5. #20
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    I just can't stop laughing with the nickname of "CarneAsada".

    It has a very very very funny meaning in portuguese.

    Is "CarneAsada" brazilian or from Portugal?
    Last edited by mateusp1; 02-09-2013 at 02:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by starryxskies View Post
    Excuse me Jaylee, I thought we were discussing the issue of the 3A - not what was holding Mao back. Notice that I used "any lady who has a 3A" because I'm actually talking about any lady with a 3A. For example, if Suzuki had a 3A, I don't see why she shouldn't be allowed to showcase that in the SP. And the rule allows that - which I'm saying is fair. If Mao didn't have the 3A, then she'll just need to work harder and get it. Result?! The sport WILL be moving forward. This is what has happened with the Mens and the quad. These guys are fighting to land the next quad flip, etc. If the SP was called technical program to show your technical abilities, how does the ability to do the 3A not fit into this category?
    I don't think I misunderstood you. You stated that you didn't "see why any lady with a 3A should be be held back just because their peers can't do what they can do." My point was that Mao--a lady with a 3A--was not being held back by the rules, just her own limitations with jumps other than the 3A, and she had to rely heavily--too much--on the 3A for success. She started attempting a 3A combo in the SP _after_ she had troubles with the 3/3 in the SP. The rule regarding the 2A in the SP was never an issue until Mao began attempting a 3A combo in the SP in the 2009-2010 season. Then ALL OF A SUDDEN, the rule needed to change. Well, I don't think that was right.

    The sport was moving forward just fine with the 2A/3A option in the free program. The short program is not about showcasing whatever stuff a skater is capable of, as long as it's difficult--in that case, let's just have the jumping passes allow for a solo 3A, 3A combo, and another 3A out of steps. That would be more difficult than what the current ladies are doing--why not allow them to do whatever they want without any restrictions at all in the SP? What is the point of required elements then?

    Quote Originally Posted by Li'Kitsu View Post
    Sorry to say it like that, but pretty much everything you wrote is cringe-worthy.
    Skaters have different strengths, some are better with 3-3's, some with other jumps. For example the 3A. Why does it make sense to you that skaters with a 3-3-should have a general advantage in the SP and the LP, but a 3A - being an extremly tough element, seldomly landed by a female - should not be allowed to give someone an advantage over other women woithout a 3A in the SP and LP? Saying someone has to do a 2A while she's capable of the harder element is just that: holding her back.
    There is a huge difference between the rule allowing the ladies to do a 3/3 in the SP versus the rule allowing the ladies to do a 3A in the SP. When the ISU allowed the ladies to do a 3/3 in the SP (or, allowing them to do the triple out of footwork some years earlier), there were numerous ladies who had proven themselves capable of doing so. When was it, 1996-1997? It was during that quad. Ladies had already been doing 3/3s in the FS at that point since the 1980s.

    The rules allowing the ladies to do a 3/3 in the SP were never passed to give one skater an advantage over the rest of the field, because it was proven that quite a few ladies could do a 3/3 already. But you can't say the same regarding the rule regarding the 3A. Fact: only one lady was capable of landing a 3A at the time that the rule was passed allowing her to attempt it in the SP. Fact: the ISU did not allow the men to attempt solo quads or solo 3As in the SP until multiple men were successfully doing them already; same is true regarding ladies and the 3/3 in the SP. If the truth makes you cringe, so be it. Facts are facts.

    So it took the ISU way too long to allow men to do quads as the solo jump in the SP. That was a mistake and they should have changed it earlier. But because of that they need to be unfair towards the ladies now too?
    The situations are not comparable at all. It would not have been unfair to the ladies at all if they had not passed that rule, since unlike the men and quads they hadn't proven that multiple ladies skaters could land a 3A. This rule was passed in the summer of 2010, and it hasn't benefited anyone but Mao Asada--thereby proving my point that this rule gives only her an advantage and was done solely for her benefit.

    You're saying it like: the SP needs to reward skaters who have that exact set of skills (3-3, clean lutz). Other sets of skills (3A f.e.), should not be rewarded.
    So Mao is the only woman in the world now who can (at least with a certain success rate) land a 3A? How unfair towards all other woman not capable of a 3A that she's allowed to jump it in the SP!
    No, that's not what I'm saying at all. A 3/3 and a lutz are not the only elements that need to be rewarded, but enough ladies can do them that allowing the ladies to attempt a triple/triple in the SP doesn't give any one a serious advantage over the others on paper--which should make for a good competition in the SP. The minimum requirements in the SP at the senior level shouldn't be too low or so easy that it's not distinguishable from the junior level, but you don't want the maximum allowed elements in the SP to be so high and unique that only one or two skaters can take advantage and benefit. At least, that was how the ISU has otherwise acted in the history of required elements for the SP.

    The rules allowing for a 3/3 and a triple out of footwork in the SP weren't passed to reward any specific skater, and the higher base value for a clean lutz also wasn't made to benefit any specific skater. That's the way it should be. Look at the rule for bonuses in the back-half of the SP--Hanyu is the one skater who took the maximum advantage of it, and used it to shatter the world record this season. However, no one could argue that this rule was created to benefit just Hanyu. That rule was fairly made because too many skaters were frontloading their SP even while they were capable of moving jumps to the back half of the SP.

    I am not arguing that the 3A shouldn't be rewarded, but rather that the rule allowing for it in the SP shouldn't have been implemented because it was only done for one skater.

    Mao is a great all-around skater and her 3A is not her only strength. But to answer the question of this thread, there's no need to keep increasing the value of the 3A to increase the advantage of a ladies skater who can do a 3A over the rest of the ladies field--there are enough advantages to that jump already.

    Quote Originally Posted by CarneAsada View Post
    It's only fair to have the rules favor Mao this time around, considering how ridiculously in favor of Yuna they were 3 years ago, when doing 3 double axels could potentially net you 6.5 points EACH and if you underrotated a 3A by 91 degrees you'd get credit for a bad double axel.
    The rules 3 years ago were not made with either Mao or Yu-Na in mind. Allowing 3 2As in the FS was not a rule change intended to favor Yu-Na. That's a big difference. The DG rules were too harsh but it wasn't done to punish Mao or advantage Yu-Na; no one in 2006 was predicting it to be an issue for Mao because at the time she wasn't struggling with downgrades.

  7. #22
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Base value for triple Axel should be 9.9. Each extra revolution = multiply by three.

    1A = 1.1, 2A = 3.3, 3A = 9.9.

    1Lz = 0.67, 2Lz = 2.0, 3Lz = 6.0, 4Lz = 18.0

  8. #23
    Adiós Melon's Avatar
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    no

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Base value for triple Axel should be 9.9. Each extra revolution = multiply by three.

    1A = 1.1, 2A = 3.3, 3A = 9.9.

    1Lz = 0.67, 2Lz = 2.0, 3Lz = 6.0, 4Lz = 18.0
    now,
    1A=1.1 2A=3.3 3A=8.5
    1lz=0.6 2lz=2.1 3lz=6.0 4lz=13.6

  10. #25
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Even without raising the base value a skater with a triple Axel has a big advantage. In the short program, suppose that imaginary hypothetical skater A can do a triple Axel (out of steps) but does not do a triple Lutz or a triple-triple of any kind. She does:

    3A = 8.5
    3F+2Lo = 7.1
    3Lo = 5.1

    Total = 20.7 (not counting second half bonuses)

    Imaginary hypothetical skater B does

    3Lz+3T = 10.0
    3F = 5.3
    2A = 3.3

    Total = 18.6

    Now suppose both skaters get +1 GOE across the board on all jumps.

    GOE for skater A = 2.4

    GOE for skater B = 1.9

    Skater A wins by 2.6 points, 23.1 to 20.5.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarneAsada View Post
    It's only fair to have the rules favor Mao this time around, considering how ridiculously in favor of Yuna they were 3 years ago, when doing 3 double axels could potentially net you 6.5 points EACH and if you underrotated a 3A by 91 degrees you'd get credit for a bad double axel. In fact, I could easily argue that the rules haven't been changed enough. The ISU effectively killed 3-3Lo combinations 4 years ago and have done nothing to reverse that trend. Another thing is that people argue that a 3Lz-2T should be worth more than a 3T-3T and a 3A-2T should be worth more than a 3Lz-3T.
    3loop point is similar with 3flip, 2loop point became same with 2flip. Yeah, loop and flip is became the almost same level jump.
    loop is only jump that kim cannot do, and also it's the highest success rate of among Asada's jumps.(almost 90%)
    i dont know reason, but 1A base points +0.3, and to judgement loose on the underrotated jump, the 70% rule come in. the 3a's base score is increased(higher than 3t3t) and a factor of goe 100%.

    I think JSF's effort is enough.

    And I predict the end of the season, the 3a's base point is going to rise again
    This time, Perhaps they get rid of the difference flip and lutz? I've heard rumors that the Japan Federation plan.
    sorry, just a joke...
    Last edited by venlac; 02-09-2013 at 03:55 PM.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by mateusp1 View Post
    I just can't stop laughing with the nickname of "CarneAsada".

    It has a very very very funny meaning in portuguese.

    Is "CarneAsada" brazilian or from Portugal?
    No, I took my username from Spanish; does it mean something different in Portuguese?

    Quote Originally Posted by venlac View Post
    3loop point is similar with 3flip, 2loop point became same with 2flip. Yeah, loop and flip is became the almost same level jump.
    loop is only jump that kim cannot do, and also it's the highest success rate of among Asada's jumps.(almost 90%)
    i dont know reason, but 1A base points +0.3, and to judgement loose on the underrotated jump, the 70% rule come in. the 3a's base score is increased(higher than 3t3t) and a factor of goe 100%.

    I think JSF's effort is enough.

    And I predict the end of the season, the 3a's base point is going to rise again
    This time, Perhaps they get rid of the difference flip and lutz? I've heard rumors that the Japan Federation plan.
    sorry, just a joke...
    Oh yes, get rid of the difference between flip and lutz because that's clearly what the nefarious all-powerful JSF is aiming for, right? Never mind the fact that the value of a triple Lutz hasn't been touched for years and now there's an even bigger gap between it and the triple flip. Or the fact that Mao in her free repeats the flip with its now-reduced base value. Would you rather have a flip close to the value of the loop, or would you rather have it close to the value of the Lutz and remove Yu-Na's biggest weapon?
    Last edited by CarneAsada; 02-09-2013 at 06:17 PM.

  13. #28
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    No, they shouldn't.

    A skater that can land a triple axel already has a huge advantage over those that can't. I don't believe that advantage should be insurmountable

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarneAsada View Post
    Oh yes, get rid of the difference between flip and lutz because that's clearly what the nefarious all-powerful JSF is aiming for, right?
    no~ why so serious it's just a joke

    Never mind the fact that the value of a triple Lutz hasn't been touched for years and now there's an even bigger gap between it and the triple flip. Or the fact that Mao in her free repeats the flip with its now-reduced base value. Would you rather have a flip close to the value of the loop, or would you rather have it close to the value of the Lutz and remove Yu-Na's biggest weapon?
    are you complaint that triple lutz's base point? More and more, skater do not try to 3lutz base point is low compared to the difficult.
    even in GPF sp, there was not 3lz anywhere in top 5 ladies
    and after rule changed, skaters jump many loop. because compared to the difficult, 3f and 3lo's base point is not much difference.
    I want to you take a look at the skaters's jump trend after rule changing. Then everything becomes clear.

  15. #30
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    I think if the 3axel is going to be raised, I'd also than arise the point value of the other triples especially the lutz. I'd also like to see 3/3s rewarded more in the short... I DID think Mao deserved more credit for her 3axel/2toe than she got at the Olympics..

    I could support a 3axel being treated like a quad (for the ladies point wise) but that would be if the 3lutz (which is becoming very rare) was also rewarded. And things like having harder jumps and harder combos were rewarded too.

    And considering the 3lutz is all but disappearing in short programs everywhere does show its not properly rewarded.

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