Page 3 of 8 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 107

Thread: Should base value for a 3A be higher?

  1. #31
    Six Point Zero Krislite's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Yunaverse
    Posts
    1,546
    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    I think if the 3axel is going to be raised, I'd also than arise the point value of the other triples especially the lutz. I'd also like to see 3/3s rewarded more in the short... I DID think Mao deserved more credit for her 3axel/2toe than she got at the Olympics..

    I could support a 3axel being treated like a quad (for the ladies point wise) but that would be if the 3lutz (which is becoming very rare) was also rewarded. And things like having harder jumps and harder combos were rewarded too.

    And considering the 3lutz is all but disappearing in short programs everywhere does show its not properly rewarded.
    I agree. If we're going to be fair and want to push the technical aspect forward, boosting the value of 3/3's will go a longer way than boosting the already highly valued 3Axel, which as of now benefits only one female skater. On the other hand, more than a handful of girls can do 3/3's, even difficult ones like 3Lz+3T.

  2. #32
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    389
    Quote Originally Posted by CarneAsada View Post
    No, I took my username from Spanish; does it mean something different in Portuguese?

    Well, let me explain...

    The word "Mao" in portuguese has the same pronuciation of "mal", a portuguese world that means "badly, barely, bad".

    "Asada" in portuguese has the same pronuciation of "assada", a world that means "roast"(from the verb "to roast").

    This word "assada" in portuguese is totally related to food.

    If you join "Mao+Asada"(pronunciated "mal assada") in portuguese you would have something that would mean like "badly roast"(don't know this does mean in english),"undercooked", "underdone" or "rare"(when you ask for a "rare" beef, for example).

    If you say in portuguese that you want a steak that is "mal assada"(Mao Asada), you are basically saying that you want a "rare steak"

    Then, we have the word "carne", that, in portuguese, means "beef" or "steak".

    When you say "Carne Assada"(in portuguese), it means "roast beef" or something like "barbecue".

    Another funny thing is that some brazilian figure skating fans, sometimes, calls "Bem Asada", which means "well done"(not rare). Another funny thing is when some brazilian skating fans also says "mal(Mao) cozida", which means "badly baked"(to bake, when you put some food to be cooked in the oven). "Cozida" in portuguese means "to be cooked in an oven".

    LOL
    Last edited by mateusp1; 02-09-2013 at 10:01 PM.

  3. #33
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    3,083
    Quote Originally Posted by Krislite View Post
    I agree. If we're going to be fair and want to push the technical aspect forward, boosting the value of 3/3's will go a longer way than boosting the already highly valued 3Axel, which as of now benefits only one female skater. On the other hand, more than a handful of girls can do 3/3's, even difficult ones like 3Lz+3T.
    But there's something to be said still for any athlete being able to do something others can't do. Its unfortunate that there wasn't something special that Mao could have gotten for making history like she did at the Olympics...(girl did a 3axel/2toe at the Olympics) it was amazing and not properly rewarded. I think I'd have still had Yu-na ahead over all, and yes Kim deserves her Olympic win but they should have been closer IMO. Kim's 3lutz/3toe is not properly appreciated either. I believe she was the only one there who actually executed that difficult of a combination. Considering the level of the ladies now, I think Kim deserves more credit for how good SHE was technically....

    In general except for a 3axel/2toe (I do think the difficulty of the first jump should have more consideration in any combo) I absolutely do think right now the 3axel is more properly rewarded with Asada able to do her 3axel alone. I'm of the opinion if you can do something no one else can do why shouldn't you be rewarded????

    However, I'm concerned about the rest of the jumps too and I'd support the 3axel being raised if the other jumps are raised as well....Especially the 3lutz..At the end of the day Kim did her forte difficult 3/3, and Asada did her forte a 3axel both girls deserved rewards over the rest for this..

  4. #34
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Hollywood, CA
    Posts
    3,968
    What really matters is the differential between jumps. The value of other jumps needs to be lowered. The reward for the big jumps when you hit them is already plenty high enough in comparison to non-jump elements and PCS.

  5. #35
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    3,083
    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    What really matters is the differential between jumps. The value of other jumps needs to be lowered. The reward for the big jumps when you hit them is already plenty high enough in comparison to non-jump elements and PCS.

    Its hard for me to think jumps are rewarded enough when we see the results we are getting like Lepisto's bronze etc....Or Asada's win over Suzuki at NHK.

  6. #36
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,106
    Quote Originally Posted by mateusp1 View Post
    Well, let me explain... *whole post*

  7. #37
    Forever stuck on those steps Li'Kitsu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    976
    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly
    It doesn't and shouldn't guarantee a win if another skater is better at most of the 6 other SP elements and/or at program components.
    And I never said it should. It definitly shouldn't. I was completly referring to jaylee who seems to make this a Mao-based discussion, but for the thread title: no, the BV shouldn't be increased.
    Does Mao's 3A make her invincible now? Hardly. Yes, it gives her an advantage regarding the BV, but that difference can be made up with better non-jump elements and/or PCS. If a skater is better in jumping quality, non-jump elements, PCS they still can beat Mao. That's why I don't think she's beat Yuna or Caroline in an SP head to head just yet.

    Now if you want to make it a point that she doesn't have to do the steps leading into the 3A, that's true. Doing the other single jumps, you have too. But then, it could be argued again ladies don't have to do steps into their 2A's either...

    And again, the argument "but it wasn't allowed for men to do quads in the SP". Jaylee, that still sounds like your only point to me too. I don't get why this is suppoessed to be an argument at all. The thing is: it should have been allowed for the men way earlier. Why is it fair if many can to that element, but unfair if it's only one person? Isn't that unfair towards that one person who can do that element? If she's allowed to do that element or not depends on how many other ladies can do it. Meh.
    I agree with what's been said before: if there is just one person capable of a 4-4 combo, let them do it. If someone can do a 4A, let them.
    Besides that, the main advantage a 3A has is the possibility of an 8-triple FS. But that goes over to the point that I think the Zayak rule is uselessly strict here.

    Quote Originally Posted by jaylee
    The rules allowing the ladies to do a 3/3 in the SP were never passed to give one skater an advantage over the rest of the field, because it was proven that quite a few ladies could do a 3/3 already. But you can't say the same regarding the rule regarding the 3A. Fact: only one lady was capable of landing a 3A at the time that the rule was passed allowing her to attempt it in the SP. Fact: the ISU did not allow the men to attempt solo quads or solo 3As in the SP until multiple men were successfully doing them already; same is true regarding ladies and the 3/3 in the SP. If the truth makes you cringe, so be it. Facts are facts.
    Allowing 3-3's in the SP is still giving some skaters an advantage over others, those who don't have a 3-3. And the point is: that's how it should be.
    And no, it's not the facts that make me cringe. It's your continuieng interpretation of the allowance of a 3A instead of the 2A in the SP to be purely made to benefit Mao. Sounds very political to me. And that is not a fact - it's your way to put it. Having to do a 2A when you are capable of a 3A is not right - if there is one, ten, or hundreds of skaters affected by that. And I'm saying that completly unrelated to who that skater is.

    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc
    I'd also like to see 3/3s rewarded more in the short
    That's a really good point too. 3-3's just being the sum of the single jumps point-wise isn't giving them enough credit (like 3L+3T and 3F = 3F+3T and 3L, when it shouldn't be like that). But that really should be changed unrelated to the 3A, and I still think it's BV is fine as it is. That would also apply to Mathman'sexample I guess - skater B does the harder combination, and that's the point in that programm where she doesn't get rewarded enough. That's why skater A is with more points ahead than she should be, IMO.

  8. #38
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    272
    If Mao hadn't landed that 3A and got ratified, this thread would not appear. But I would not expect anything less from the OP.

  9. #39
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    308
    I'm sorry but jaylee's argument is simply stupid - Mao is the only skater who can do a 3A so it should be prohibited because it benefits only her. This is exlactly the reason why the jump should be allowed. If she's the only one, let her do it, let's admire it because it's so difficult and reward it. Reward the risk, upping the ante and the difficulty. It doesn't matter how many skaters can do it. The fact that that there is only one even attempting that jump speaks for itself.

    Jaylee's argument is like: let's think about. Only one skater can do it? Hmmm, that must be difficult right? So what should be done? Reward this challenging element? No, let's prohibit that, discourage. Just like we did with Miki Ando's highly difficult 3Lz+3Lo's. Technical regress instead of the development.

    According to jaylee 3/3 among the ladies were allowed only when a lot of skaters could do it. The same with quads among the men. And only then can we allow ladies to perform 3A in SP - when there will be plenty of them. But how can the ladies be ecnoured to do 3A and actually even think about learning this jump and later on attempting it if it would be illicit?

  10. #40
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Hollywood, CA
    Posts
    3,968
    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    Its hard for me to think jumps are rewarded enough when we see the results we are getting like Lepisto's bronze etc....Or Asada's win over Suzuki at NHK.
    Well like I said it's about the differential. The easier jumps need to be worth less.

    Those bad results you mentioned were the result of poor judging of the PCS and overly harsh underrotation calls, though.

  11. #41
    Six Point Zero Krislite's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Yunaverse
    Posts
    1,546
    Quote Originally Posted by Bartek View Post
    I'm sorry but jaylee's argument is simply stupid - Mao is the only skater who can do a 3A so it should be prohibited because it benefits only her. This is exlactly the reason why the jump should be allowed. If she's the only one, let her do it, let's admire it because it's so difficult and reward it. Reward the risk, upping the ante and the difficulty. It doesn't matter how many skaters can do it. The fact that that there is only one even attempting that jump speaks for itself.

    Jaylee's argument is like: let's think about. Only one skater can do it? Hmmm, that must be difficult right? So what should be done? Reward this challenging element? No, let's prohibit that, discourage. Just like we did with Miki Ando's highly difficult 3Lz+3Lo's. Technical regress instead of the development.

    According to jaylee 3/3 among the ladies were allowed only when a lot of skaters could do it. The same with quads among the men. And only then can we allow ladies to perform 3A in SP - when there will be plenty of them. But how can the ladies be ecnoured to do 3A and actually even think about learning this jump and later on attempting it if it would be illicit?
    Because it was already allowed in the Free Program. It was not "illicit." The 3Axel has always been allowed in both the SP and the LP before the new rule. What's new is that it's allowed to meet the AXEL requirement in the SP. THAT particular rule is to the benefit of one particular skater at the time that it was passed.

  12. #42
    Custom Title starryxskies's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    208
    Quote Originally Posted by Krislite View Post
    Because it was already allowed in the Free Program. It was not "illicit." The 3Axel has always been allowed in both the SP and the LP before the new rule. What's new is that it's allowed to meet the AXEL requirement in the SP. THAT particular rule is to the benefit of one particular skater at the time that it was passed.
    I'm still not understanding why it's bad that it just so happens to benefit one skater? The triple axel is a valid axel, if other skaters can't do it, then too bad so sad. They should try to practice and train it. Or take the risk if they have it but are too chicken to go for it

  13. #43
    Six Point Zero Krislite's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Yunaverse
    Posts
    1,546
    Quote Originally Posted by starryxskies View Post
    I'm still not understanding why it's bad that it just so happens to benefit one skater? The triple axel is a valid axel, if other skaters can't do it, then too bad so sad. They should try to practice and train it. Or take the risk if they have it but are too chicken to go for it
    Oh please. It didn't "just so happen" to benefit a particular skater. If you believe that it was purely coincidental that the new rule benefited Mao, then I have nothing else to say.

  14. #44
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    1,148
    I think the point is just about right now. I don't think the jump should score so high that any skater can win purely for being able to do that jump. I love seeing skaters display their ability to control their edges.
    But if it turns out that no female skater besides Mao starts to attempt the 3-axel in the near future, it may be that the incentive is still too little and they might need to raise it by 0.5 or 1.0 points. I would really like to see more female skaters attemping 3-axel in competition. It would make it more exciting to watch.

  15. #45
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    1,148
    Quote Originally Posted by Krislite View Post
    Oh please. It didn't "just so happen" to benefit a particular skater. If you believe that it was purely coincidental that the new rule benefited Mao, then I have nothing else to say.
    Maybe raising the value of the 3-axel wasn't so much about Mao as much as it was about the 3-axel, and the desire to encourage more female skaters to train the 3-axel?

Page 3 of 8 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •