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Thread: Should base value for a 3A be higher?

  1. #61
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    No, leave the value of the 3a as is.
    Everyone whining, and I mean whining, for it to be higher are mao fans desperate for her to win in Sochi. They think it is her calling card to be out of reach for anyone come next year.
    Well, let's remember, a 3a in the short was allowed in the combo jump. And the hollow argument that the 3a she be allowed as the steps jump is ridiculous, since it's extremely difficult for a woman to do 3a from preceding steps- did Ito and Harding ever do them out of steps.
    You really think Mao was hindered from not being allowed- haha, imagine how much little flow she would have in and out of the jump. A sure underrotation or dg is more likely.
    Please- all she had to do was to a 3lz-3lo, 3f or 3lo, and a 2a in the short in previous years and her base would've been higher than Yuna's, pretty simple. But we all know she can't to a 3lz, and her 3lo is not good enough for 2.75 revolutions to be ratified in the combo- that's not the rules fault, not the tech callers fault-blame them all you want. It's Mao's fault, pure and simple, yet her fans want another boost to the now 3a to give her the best chance. Cmon, she was never hindered in any way, and the rules were never against her. In fact, she got away with alot of ratified lutzes and combos that she shouldn't have before 2008, when they finally decided to drop the hammer on bad edges and ur's.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by guanchi View Post
    No, leave the value of the 3a as is.
    Everyone whining, and I mean whining, for it to be higher are mao fans desperate for her to win in Sochi. They think it is her calling card to be out of reach for anyone come next year.
    Well, let's remember, a 3a in the short was allowed in the combo jump. And the hollow argument that the 3a she be allowed as the steps jump is ridiculous, since it's extremely difficult for a woman to do 3a from preceding steps- did Ito and Harding ever do them out of steps.
    You really think Mao was hindered from not being allowed- haha, imagine how much little flow she would have in and out of the jump. A sure underrotation or dg is more likely.
    Please- all she had to do was to a 3lz-3lo, 3f or 3lo, and a 2a in the short in previous years and her base would've been higher than Yuna's, pretty simple. But we all know she can't to a 3lz, and her 3lo is not good enough for 2.75 revolutions to be ratified in the combo- that's not the rules fault, not the tech callers fault-blame them all you want. It's Mao's fault, pure and simple, yet her fans want another boost to the now 3a to give her the best chance. Cmon, she was never hindered in any way, and the rules were never against her. In fact, she got away with alot of ratified lutzes and combos that she shouldn't have before 2008, when they finally decided to drop the hammer on bad edges and ur's.
    ?? I'm not exactly sure what you mean the steps part; 3A out of steps was always allowed. You also seem to not have paid attention to what Mao did until 2009, which is pretty much exactly what you described: 3F-3Lo, 3Lz, 2A, and she even attempted to fix the flutz back in 2008, getting it ratified cleanly a few times. If the 3A was allowed in the SP back in 2008 then guess what she would've been doing - 3A, 3F-3Lo and 3Lz. So yes, the rule was limiting her and your argument again is invalid.
    Last edited by CarneAsada; 02-10-2013 at 11:20 AM.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarneAsada View Post
    ?? I'm not exactly sure what you mean the steps part; 3A out of steps was always allowed. You also seem to not have paid attention to what Mao did until 2009, which is pretty much exactly what you described: 3F-3Lo, 3Lz, 2A, and she even attempted to fix the flutz back in 2008, getting it ratified cleanly a few times. If the 3A was allowed in the SP back in 2008 then guess what she would've been doing - 3A, 3F-3Lo and 3Lz. So yes, the rule was limiting her and your argument again is completely worthless.
    No, I should've been clearer, but it's clear that as a mao fan, your argument is worthless as you haven't been paying attention.
    Of course the 3a was allowed out of steps, but did asada ever attempt a 3a out of steps? Was it ratified? Can you imagine her trying to do a 3a out of steps- hello ur and dg's.
    And no, you are quite stupid in saying that the rules were limiting were for- did you even try to read what I wrote? She had the higher base value even with no 3a. She could've done the 3a in a combo, or from steps, but did she? Well, did she? You have no argument, you're just a desperate fanboy thinking the whole skating world is against her. Gimme a break.
    Where is her correct edge in a 3lz-3lo combo? Can she even get enough rotations in that 3lo? So who's fault is it, who is limiting whom?
    You have no argument.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by guanchi View Post
    Of course the 3a was allowed out of steps, but did asada ever attempt a 3a out of steps?
    Yes, when she was with Rafael.

    Quote Originally Posted by guanchi View Post
    Was it ratified?
    Yes.

  5. #65
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    ^^Well, do you know if a 3a and 2a were both allowed in the short?
    If so, then she could've done a 3lz-3lo, or 3f-3lo, a 3a, and a 2a in the short. That's even high bv than 3lz-3lo, 3f, 2a.
    If she was capable, and the rules allowed it, why not stick with that plan?
    Thus, I don't understand all this chanting for an even higher bv for a 3a. Improved your other elements, and your pcs will rise. The tops girls tech content is tough enough as is under CoP.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by venlac View Post
    factor of goe was reduce(except triple axel),she cannot recieve goe more than 2 points no longer.
    By "she" you mean Yu-na, right? Mao can receive +1 GOE for 3A, +.7 for 3F+2T, and +.7 for 3Lo (for +1's across the board).

    Quote Originally Posted by Krislite
    I'm pretty sure the ISU was aware Vancouver wasn't the very last Olympics. They knew Mao had every incentive to go for Sochi. Besides, they've probably learned not to be too over with such things
    I think they are short sighted, What if the next triple Axel lady to come along is *gasp* Korean?.
    Last edited by Mathman; 02-10-2013 at 04:38 PM.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by guanchi View Post
    No, I should've been clearer, but it's clear that as a mao fan, your argument is worthless as you haven't been paying attention.
    Of course the 3a was allowed out of steps, but did asada ever attempt a 3a out of steps? Was it ratified? Can you imagine her trying to do a 3a out of steps- hello ur and dg's.
    And no, you are quite stupid in saying that the rules were limiting were for- did you even try to read what I wrote? She had the higher base value even with no 3a. She could've done the 3a in a combo, or from steps, but did she? Well, did she? You have no argument, you're just a desperate fanboy thinking the whole skating world is against her. Gimme a break.
    Where is her correct edge in a 3lz-3lo combo? Can she even get enough rotations in that 3lo? So who's fault is it, who is limiting whom?
    You have no argument.
    I seem to have touched a nerve. Did I ever claim she did 3Lz-3Lo? She did flip-loop and was getting it consistently ratified until 2008. She even did several clean 3Lz near the end of 2008. Look it up. As for 3A out of steps, she was doing 3A out of brackets in her free program back in 2007 - again she managed it a few times. As for her current state, you know that she is incapable of most of this right now; I'm sure that she is not even close to it. So yes, you're right in that she was limiting herself at times. But even if she can't do it right now and she never managed to do a 3A out of steps, a clean 3F-3Lo AND a clean 3Lz in one program, she has done each thing before at some point. I have never said anything about the whole skating world being against her, whatever that is supposed to mean. So yes, the rules were partially limiting her - back in 2007 and 2008.

    Now on the subject of whether base value for a 3A should be higher, I suppose I should mention that no, I don't think it needs to be any higher as of now. If the value of an Axel is raised, then Lutz should be as well, and flip and loop bumped up slightly.
    Last edited by CarneAsada; 02-10-2013 at 11:53 AM.

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    You didn't touch any nerve, you don't have that ability so try not to praise yourself too highly
    The rules were never limiting against her, omg that is a really specious argument.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by guanchi View Post
    ^^Well, do you know if a 3a and 2a were both allowed in the short?
    If so, then she could've done a 3lz-3lo, or 3f-3lo, a 3a, and a 2a in the short. That's even high bv than 3lz-3lo, 3f, 2a.
    If she was capable, and the rules allowed it, why not stick with that plan?
    Thus, I don't understand all this chanting for an even higher bv for a 3a. Improved your other elements, and your pcs will rise. The tops girls tech content is tough enough as is under CoP.
    This occured when she was with Rafael and they were just beginning to penalize flutz/lip. I think you just need to go to YouTube and you'll find it. I'm not sure what the rest of her jumps were. The point is, amazing Mao did that one too, 3-axel out of steps.

    I don't think it's Mao fans who are calling for higher BV on the triple-axel (if anyone is, that is). I think it's clear to Mao and everyone else that she doesn't need the 3-axel BV to be higher to win. She won GP without a 3-axel or 3-3 and with under-rotations, because Mao is so much more than just about jumps. Of course, I'm sure she won't be satisfied until she's got her jumps, and hopefully (knock wood) she'll get those back too, soon.

    In any case, I'm sure that an additional point or two on the triple-axel base point makes no difference to what Mao will attempt as a skater or her outcome, but it may make it more enticing for future champions to train for the triple-axel.

    I think it is a legitimate question to ask, just how many base points is enough for female skaters to try and train for the 3-axel under CoP? Because, since we haven't seen any female skater besides Mao put it in competition, it could be that 8.5 just isn't high enough.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by guanchi View Post
    You didn't touch any nerve, you don't have that ability so try not to praise yourself too highly
    The rules were never limiting against her, omg that is a really specious argument.
    So you don't think that Mao was being limited when in her SP she could have attempted 3A, 3F-3Lo and 3Lz back in 2008 if the rules hadn't required a double axel. Well I guess there's nothing more to say.
    Last edited by CarneAsada; 02-10-2013 at 12:02 PM.

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    Omg, the rules were set back then and didn't target any specific skater- i.e., they were not set up to single out any specific skater, even if said skater could do a more difficult jump. Did you even read what jaylee wrote- the sp has required elements, but hey, if you want to make it so that you could have a more unrestrictive jump layout, why not 3a combo, 3a steps, and 3a. Gee, I guess the ISU really wanted to hold back a specific skater in mind. Hmm, never mind that other jump layouts are possible even with the 3a restriction as the axel requirement in the short.
    You really have nothing more to say- why don't you write the ISU why they were wrong in not allowing that 3a back in 2008, gee I guess they will listen to you since you believe it was all so unfair back then. I guess they know nothing about requirements, but you do.
    Have some cheese with your whine, now will you?

  12. #72
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    Setting aside – um – all this -- the question that we should be debating is, just how hard is the Axel jump anyway, compared to other take-offs?

    The IJS seems to feel that adding an extra revolution approximately triples the difficulty. So, all things being equal, an extra half revolution should be multiplied by 1.73. (The square root of 3. One extra revolution = two half-revolutions, 3 = 1.73x1.73.)

    Multiplying the base value for a double Axel by 1.73 gives 5.7 for the scaled base value for a two-and-a-half Axel, which would be the same number of revolutions as a normal triple jump. So applying the difficulty-per–three-revolution standard puts the Axel, at 5.7, halfway between the flip, 5.3, and the Lutz, 6.0, in terms of the intrinsic difficulty of the take-off edge.

    Therefore a triple Axel, 3-and-a-half revolutions, should be worth 5.7x1.73 = 9.9.

    It’s just arithmetic, not who we like better, Mao or Yu-na.

    This is what I admire about the CoP. This kind of objective analysis would not have been possible under earlier judging systems.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    This occured when she was with Rafael and they were just beginning to penalize flutz/lip. I think you just need to go to YouTube and you'll find it. I'm not sure what the rest of her jumps were. The point is, amazing Mao did that one too, 3-axel out of steps.

    I don't think it's Mao fans who are calling for higher BV on the triple-axel (if anyone is, that is). I think it's clear to Mao and everyone else that she doesn't need the 3-axel BV to be higher to win. She won GP without a 3-axel or 3-3 and with under-rotations, because Mao is so much more than just about jumps. Of course, I'm sure she won't be satisfied until she's got her jumps, and hopefully (knock wood) she'll get those back too, soon.

    In any case, I'm sure that an additional point or two on the triple-axel base point makes no difference to what Mao will attempt as a skater or her outcome, but it may make it more enticing for future champions to train for the triple-axel.

    I think it is a legitimate question to ask, just how many base points is enough for female skaters to try and train for the 3-axel under CoP? Because, since we haven't seen any female skater besides Mao put it in competition, it could be that 8.5 just isn't high enough.
    I think you have good points- just what will it take to get more women to put in a 3a in the short. But the problem is that most women, with 2 obvious exceptions, have small wimply looking 3a's. There is no scale, or flow. Men have been doing 4t's for a while, but they get immense height and flow, and can tack a 3t or 3lo as an end combo. Not so with women and 3a's. Put a 3a in the short, it's nice, but it always looks strained. Yukari, Kimmie, Mao- not impressive. I think we have to wait for Gracie, Courtney, or Adelina to get some nice scale on a 3a, if they train and attempt it. Girls can do it, and there's no need to have an extra incentive out there, imo.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Setting aside – um – all this -- the question that we should be debating is, just how hard is the Axel jump anyway, compared to other take-offs?

    The IJS seems to feel that adding an extra revolution approximately triples the difficulty. So, all things being equal, an extra half revolution should be multiplied by 1.73. (The square root of 3. One extra revolution = two half-revolutions, 3 = 1.73x1.73.)

    Multiplying the base value for a double Axel by 1.73 gives 5.7 for the scaled base value for a two-and-a-half Axel, which would be the same number of revolutions as a normal triple jump. So applying the difficulty-per–three-revolution standard puts the Axel, at 5.7, halfway between the flip, 5.3, and the Lutz, 6.0, in terms of the intrinsic difficulty of the take-off edge.

    Therefore a triple Axel, 3-and-a-half revolutions, should be worth 5.7x1.73 = 9.9.

    It’s just arithmetic, not who we like better, Mao or Yu-na.

    This is what I admire about the CoP. This kind of objective analysis would not have been possible under earlier judging systems.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Base value for triple Axel should be 9.9. Each extra revolution = multiply by three.

    1A = 1.1, 2A = 3.3, 3A = 9.9.

    1Lz = 0.67, 2Lz = 2.0, 3Lz = 6.0, 4Lz = 18.0
    That's really fascinating. But some values would have to be jiggled around a bit to fit into that framework...

    LTN = "lower than now"
    HTN = "higher than now"

    1T = 0.4, 2T should be 1.2 (LTN vs. 1.4), 3T should be 3.6 (LTN vs. 4.1), 4T and 4S should be 10.8 (slightly HTN of 10.3 and 10.5)
    1F = 0.5, 2F should be 1.5 (LTN vs. 1.8), and 3F should be 4.5 (LTN vs. 5.3). 3Lo would also be 4.5 by this reasoning (LTN of 5.1)

    3Lz+3T would be...9.6. Very close to theoretical 3A value of 9.9. When Kristi was competing against Midori, the 3Lz+3T was regarded as her way of challenging Midori's 3A, although certainly the 3A among ladies is much rarer...

  15. #75
    Forever stuck on those steps Li'Kitsu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guanchi
    Everyone whining, and I mean whining, for it to be higher are mao fans desperate for her to win in Sochi. ....
    Thus, I don't understand all this chanting for an even higher bv for a 3a.
    And when exactly did that chanting and whining happen? Where did someone in this thread say "Yes, the BV of the 3A needs to be higher!"?


    Jaylee, for your last response, CarneAsada answered what I would have said too. Yes, the JSF were the ones proposing that rule, and they did it for Mao. But the ones to change the rules are the ISU, and it is your interpretation that the ISU did that for Mao's benefit (if I understood you correctly). Maybe they did it because they thought this is a sport, so more difficulty should be allowed. (And yes, I would generally want the rules to allow for more variety, the so called free skate has very limiting rules concerning the jumps too. And I'm definitly not asking for Mao to be allowed to exchange the combo now with an additional 3A-combo or some nonsense like that.)

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