Was Cohen's program too ambitious?

There's been a lot of talk about Sasha's performance at this Nationals. I am wondering -- was a program with 7 triples including three 3/2 combinations and extremely fast, difficult spins (which use up a lot of energy) too ambitious? Granted she did take out a lot of choreography to up her technical difficulty but this may have acutally hurt her by screwing up her muscle memory.

For Worlds should she:

1. Go back to the "packed" version of Swan Lake and attempt 6 triples with three 3/2 combinations.

2. Keep the "streamlined" version of the program with 7 triples and get the muscle memory down.

3. Similar to #2, but go for broke and add a 3/3 into the mix.

4. Something else.

I don't think it was the program - she should have had that "under her belt" by now. I think it was changing coaches so late in the season. She seemed to come unnerved at the GP final. Tracy Wilson predicted her loss at GP would affect her performance at Nationals and she was correct!!

Anyway, Sasha needs to put this one behind her and just focus on the Worlds. I am sure her new coach will help her find her focus.

Ladskater, I partially agree. Yes, she should definitely have that all under her belt by now, but I don't think the coaching change made a lot of difference. The errors were unfortunately the kind of thing that she does a lot of. If it hadn't been the jumps that she actually missed, it may have been others. She definitely has the ability to pull off a perfect ambitious program; she just needs to get over whatever mental block she seems to have for doing so. What I would actually like to see in the program is a better use of the music -- one of the things I like about Sasha's skating is that when she's "on", or reasonably close to it, she uses just about every note of the music, a very rare quality, and I haven't seen her do that this season with her current long program at all.

I don't think it was either the new coach or the additional triple. Why? because she had been 2footing the second flip all season long. Also, falling on the 3toe later in the program happens quite often. If she had had one of her more freakish mistakes ( by freakish, I mean a mistake on something that she usually does very well) like a fall on a spin or a stumble on footwork, then I would say it was nerves/coaching change/unfamiliar with new choreo, but it wasn't. From the reports I've read, the first half of her program was excellent. Honestly, it sounds to me like a stamina problem and I have no idea how to change that before worlds. Maybe she should go back to a more front loaded program.

On Sasha...

As someone else mentioned, I like to stay mindful of the fact that Sasha has continued to improve every year. I don't think she's reached her full potential yet, but sometimes slow and steady wins the race in the long run.

I'm not Sasha and don't know Sasha so this is purely speculation on my part.

It seems she can do all the difficult moves in practice with a high degree of success. The issue seems to be just putting out clean skates consistently at the most significant competitions. There might be physical issues here like the point on stamina. I suspect there is a large mental component too.

A higher degree of difficulty relative to competition is great, if you can skate it clean. But programs with falls rarely win regardless of difficulty unless the competition is a complete splatfest, at least under 6.0. (by the way, no way should Sasha have gotten that 6.0 on presentation with those mistakes!) Since Worlds this year will be based on 6.0, here is what I might try if I were her. Scale back the difficulty to a point where a clean skate SHOULD be assured. I think there would be something good for Sasha in just getting clean skate after clean skate consistently under her belt.

Once consistency is achieved, then start gradually upping the difficulty again.

Of course this is not a strategy for "Let's go win Worlds this year." This would be a longer term strategy with an eye towards consistent clean skates in time for the Olympics. I think some silver or bronze medals with clean skates and lower difficulty would do more for Sasha mentally than silver or bronze medals with falls and more difficulty over the next year or so.

Back when I was a kid competing in baton twirling I went through a period where I just couldn't seem to complete a routine without a drop. This is exactly what my coach did. Scaled back the difficulty and shifted the focus in practice AND competition to mistake free routines. I kept working on the more difficult moves separately in practice, but we kept them out of my routines for about 6 months. It really worked. It was a quirky mental thing, but once I got back in the mode of competing clean, I somehow got past it and was able to up the difficulty again.

Just a thought...

DG

Sasha skated especially well at the Nationals. A superb SP an an excellent LP. I don't believe the fall affected her scores (which were sky high) in any way whatsoever.

What happened was that MK simply skated a better presentation THAT NIGHT. There could be arguments that the skater who skates after the other has an advantage. This may have more value than we thought before.

It seems to me that it is now a contest of the best presenters (very subjective,btw). Neither skater went overboard for bigger tricks. You've seen those tricks many times. There were simple 3x2 combos and the complete variety of triples. Nothing special. The difference between the two skaters, imo, is that Sasha presents her program to the audience while MK brings the audience into her program. Again, a subjective decision on which is the better.

Also imo, both Sasha and MK are arguably the best Presentation skaters in eligible skating at the moment. Shizuka may also be joining them shortly. Unless the tricks get trickier, the presentation score will be the gold medalist among three first rate presentaion skaters at Worlds.

Joe

Joe...

I totally agree with you that MK's LP was awesome, and if there is such a thing as an "unbeatable skate" that was pretty darn close. (and by the way I adore watching MK, and Sasha, and all the good skaters without preference! Just love to see clean skates and appreciate them all!)

Which sort of emphasizes the point that it might have been better for Sasha to skate whatever she could confidently skate clean. She most likely would have still taken home the silver (nothing to sneeze at!) and might have also captured something more important for herself in the long run - the confidence that she can skate clean in any competition. (or at least a good first step in that confident direction)

I guess this is similar to conditioned response type training. Only do what you can successfully do each and every time. Of course this idea presumes that a large part of the problem is in the mind more than in the body.

DG

Why should this nationals come as such a shock? Granted she had a great start to the season... but in these big competitions it's almost tradition for her to make a mistake. So no I don't think the coach or the jumps were to blame... I think Sasha should just focus on her program... it's a psychological thing, and I think Robin will be able to help her some with the breathing technique... but it's still gotta come from within SASHA... no one else can take the blame.

Tonichelle ...

Not blaming anyone else here, and I suspect Sasha isn't either. Acknowledging that I suspect this is more mental than anything. Just suggesting a strategy that might work. Skate consistent programs regardless of difficulty. Her mistakes were NOT a shock...that's the whole problem.

As with any problem, there needs to be a strategy to solve it. I'm not in anyway pitching the strategy I put out there as "The Right One" or "The Best One." Just suggesting that something should be done to create an environment where she can get some consistent, major mistake free programs under her belt and get mentally past that particular point. Success is what breeds confidence. All I'm suggesting is that some confidence might be possible by scaling back and doing what she KNOWS she can do. (or actually, something a bit short of what she KNOWS she can do)

DG

I have no idea what is the real problem with Sasha (maybe the problem is actually with *us*expecting perfection, since how many perfect programs do you see skaters from other countries completing at their Nationals?) is, but since she has practically perfect practices, but not competitions, there has to be something with that.

Sasha psych. herself out. She's a very beautiful skater who for one didn't appreacite it until I saw her last year in COI. She has all the tech moves and presentation. Has she ever thought of going to a sports psychologicals.

Cohen and the U.S. Championships

I don't believe that a new coach or anything else except Sasha caused her fall and other problems she encountered during the skate.

It looked to me to be the same program she's been skating all season. She's not dumb - she chokes. Her mind must not be focused at all times.

I believe Sasha needs to become her own person, and she's got 2 years to do it. To me, that's all it takes. She knows how to skate; she knows how to smile. She knows how to sell herself. But when nip comes to tuck she looses concentration, if just in a split second. In performance that is the absolutely wrong thing to do. Maybe she just gets tired on the long program.

Who knows? I wish her the best. sh

Until Sasha cleans up some of her technique, it is hard to say whether she needs a sports psychologist or not. I guess in a general sense, all athletes can use sport psychologists if they have the time and money. It does not hurt and may help.

People talk about Sasha's flutz, IMHO she does not even flutz, she does 3 or 4 flips in a lp, and 2 in the sp. She needs to tidy up the wobbly jump landing and exits. In her national lp, I could tell that she would not be able to hold the triple toe landing, because her previous triple sal/ double toe landings look so scary.

Jenny Kirk has been criticized for her "small jumps" , or air positions. IMO Jenny's landing and exits are better than Sasha's.

I think Robin can teach Sasha mental toughness. Whether you like Sarah or not she is mentally tough, and I give credit to Robin.

cohen's program is as ambitious as Kwan's. Now if Cohen was skating to Maniachenko's program that would be ambitious.

ITA! I fail to see the difficult in Cohen's program in the area of choreograhy and transitions. It's just a tad more difficult that her horrid Rach LP.

I think she should play it safe. "Attacking" doesn't work for her. Also, i think she needs to put back her spiral sequence, get rid of that 3sal/2toe combo, and bring back the Serpentine Footwork.

TV

Interesting question, Ogre Mage. One thing that struck me is that Sasha's "Swan Lake" was changed in some way for every competition from Campbell's to Nationals. Tarasova was trying to improve the programs point value for the COP, which is an admirable strategy. Then Wagner took things out apparently to streamline it for Nationals so Sasha could concentrate on her jumps. I can see the reasons why both Tarasova and Wagner did what they did, but this never allowed Sasha to get "SL" as a whole to the point of muscle memory. Hopefully between now and Worlds, Robin will get one version of "SL" set so that Sasha can do Ogre Mage's suggestion #2. Keep the "streamlined" version of the program with 7 triples and get the muscle memory down. That would be my approach.

BTW, Doggygirl, I think your analogy with baton twirling was great. Sometimes the mind just gets into a vicious cycle and it's hard to find the way to break it.

I also think Sasha's jump technique needs to be stronger. Nats was the best I have ever seen her jump landings, especially in the SP. What she used to do was have a slight jerkiness to her landings, which indicates that her jumps are not centered. Didn't see that at all at Nats, not even in the LP, so whatever Wagner is doing re Sasha's jump technique seems to be a step in the right direction. It will be interesting to see if Wagner helps her correct her flutz. Sarah never corrected hers, plus Sasha's flutz is different from Sarah's. It looks to me as if Sasha takes off late, thus starting the jump on an outside edge but staying on the ice too long so that she rotates just enough on the ice so that she takes off on an inside edge. Anyway, we'll see.

Also, hopefully Sasha's joy of skating will come back and start to show more in her skating. I thought her LP at Nats was rather flat compared to her LPs at GP events such as Lalique. And it is possible that endurance affected Sasha and other skaters. As I've said on other posts, Atlanta is 1,010 feet above sea level, second highest major city in the US. Michelle had been training at Lake Arrowhead, which is about 5,200 feet above sea level and boy, did it show! She had energy to spare and even with that all out performance of "Tosca" she was breathing normally afterwards.

I couldn't find the exact elevation for Dortmund, but it is in the Bavarian Alps, which are about 6,000 feet above sea level. I think Wagner should have Sasha do some training at high altitude so her body will be acclimated to the altitude. There is no substitue for that kind of conditioning, especially when you factor in jet lag.
Rgirl

In regards to Sasha mistakes I think we need to step back and take a look at how well she has skated this season.

Out of 5 short programs she has skated 4 clean. I was at skate Canada and she was the cream of the crop

Out of seven long programs 2 had only minor jump errors and 1 or 2 (not sure about laleque) where without falls

The invitaional and the grand prix final both took place soon after what sounds to me like a very bad cold/flu

National took place 2 to 3 weeks after her coaching change. Which can only be called a major diruption in her schedual

She has not placed lower third in any of her compations and has had no mistakes on any element but her jumps.

Some times I feel people focus so much on the errors in her programs that they forget how really improved she is from last year were she did not skate a clean program.

Go Sasha

Answering the original question, I don't think her program was too ambitious. Too ambitious would be doing a 3/3 when she hasn't even tried one all year. The extra jumping pass was with her best jump the 3 sal. I agree with Rgirl about her program changing all the time not helping her consistancy. TT did the same thing last year with Rach. TT kept tinkering and tinkering with it when it was great as it was. What did all that tinkering gain? Nothing bascially as Sasha pretty much scored the same. Should have just kept it the way it was and have Sasha have it down pat then mess with it everytime she competed for just a few points. Robin was basically putting thinks back to its original form with the exception of the 7th triple. That was done because Sasha wasn't ready to do a 3/3 and the only way to surely beat Michelle is to do 1 more triple than her plus Jenny was planning 7 triples as well. If Sasha hadn't done the extra 3sal/2toe she would have only had 4 triples completed instead of 5. Of course the extra jumping pass may have tired her out more as wel.

As far as endurance is concerned I think the flu took a lot out of Sasha and she is just now starting to get totally back to 100%. All those competitions tire you out as well. With some time to get some rest and into a more structured practice schedule it will help.
Robin may do what many have been begging for and do double runthoughs of her programs.

Your comment about elevation is a good one as well Rgirl. Sasha trained up at Lake Arrowhead when she was with Nicks at times to get used to elevation. She went there between opening ceremonies and the competition at the olympics in SLC . Sarah went to Colorado Springs so Robin did the same thing in training at elevation. Why TT didn't take Sasha to Colorado Springs right after the cheesefest to get used to elevation is beyond me? I suspect it had to do with her having other students. The fact that Sasha arrived at Nationals on time and didn't skip any practices was a really good sign IMO. She also was doing runthroughs with jumps. Robin doesn't have any other students so I wouldn't be surprised if they went to Dormund early to get used to elevation and the time change.

I agree that Sasha's jump landings were the best I've seen from her. She just plain messed up the triple toe and didn't have a chance to land it and the 2 foot on the lutz is better than the falls she had in Detroit and at GPF. Maybe Robin has pointed out to Sasha what she is doing wrong on her jump landings. That is a point in the right direction.

Robin got her first experience with Sasha in competition. Sasha was 2 different people from the SP to LP and Robin saw it and might be able to do some things differently. Robin was the cheerleader before the SP but had to be the soothing calming influence in the LP. When Sasha was at the boards looking at Robin it looked like she was a bit surprised and was trying her best to calm her down by just looking confident herself and telling her to take her time. That may have been a good thing. If Sasha had just gone out there without taking that time she could have totally bombed. Hopefully Robin can find the right balance with time.

Good question, OgreMage. I like the discussion so far.

First of all, Dortmund, Germany, site of this year's World Championships, is not a high-altitude city, at least compared to Colorado Springs (~6000 ft). You can see from the political map that Dortmund is located in west-central Germany quite a bit north of the Alps, and the simplified physical map shows it to lie along the Ruhr river valley. According to this site, the airport is at around 500 feet. I don't attribute Cohen's problems at the GPF or in Atlanta to be due to altitude, and I suspect Dortmund should cause no difficulty at all.

As far as the original question OgreMage posited about whether Swan Lake as skated at US Nationals was too ambitious, my answer is no. Listed below is the jump content for Sasha's programs so far this year, along with the GOE from the Grand Prix Series (Source: ISU results page for GP events, various others, memory, and video for other events). Negative GOEs, double-footed jumps, or falls are noted in boldface.

Fall Cheesefest
3Z-2T, 3F-2T, 3L, 2A, 3T, 3F (2-ft), 3S
Skate America
SP: 3Z-2T (-1.6), 3F (0.2), 2A (0.2)
LP: 3Z-2T (0.4), 3F-2T (1.2), 3L (0), 2A (0.4), 3T (1), 3F (-1.4), 3S (0.6)
Skate Canada
SP: 3Z-2T (0.4), 3F (1.2), 2A (1.2)
LP: 3Z (-1), 3F (0.6), 3L (0.8), 2A (0.8), 3T (0.6), 3Z (-2.2), 3S (1.2)
Trophee Lalique
SP: 3Z-2T (-0.2), 3F (1) 2A (1)
LP: 3Z-2T (-0.4), 3F-2T (1), 3L (0.4), 2A (-0.56), 3T (0), 3F (-1), 3S (0.8)
Winter Cheesefest
3Z (fall), 3F (fall), 3L (stepped-out of landing), 2A (2-ft), 3T, 3F (fall), 3S
Grand Prix Final
SP: 2Z (-1 fall), 3F, (0.6), 2A (0.2)
LP: 3Z (-0.6), 3F-2T (0.6), 3L (0.8), 2A (0.6), 3T (-2.8 fall), 2F (-1 fall), 3S (0.2)
US Nationals
SP: 3Z-2T, 3F, 2A
LP: 3Z-2T, 3F-2T, 3L, 2A, 3S-2T (wonky toe landing), 3T (fall), 3Z (2-ft), 3S

From the above list, you can see that tends to make an error late in her program. She has never had a clean 3Z/3F (depending on program iteration) as the second-to-last jump of her LP all year, and the three most recent programs have added problems with the 3T.This combined with reports of excellent practices lead me to conclude that her mistakes are due more to stamina or concentration (mental) issues and not due to changing the program throughout the year.

To finally answer the question, I go with

2. Keep the "streamlined" version of the program with 7 triples and get the muscle memory down.

Click to expand...

The Nationals content is not significantly difficult than what she has skated during the GP. The salchow is one of Cohen's most dependable jumps, with no negative GOEs all year, so it shouldn't be too much of a risk to keep it as the new extra jump. Plus, having 3 combinations guards against any Zayak deductions from missing a jump. Swan Lake was definitely best in its Trophee Lalique version, with serpentine footwork and footwork into many jumps. Also, like Rgirl, I was dismayed to see her spins downgraded, as that was the area that she had a 2-touchdown lead over the competiton; now its only a field goal. Despite the fact that I feel that the choreographic advantage of Sasha's program has been watered down by coach Wagner, I think at this juncture with the 6.0 system being used at Worlds and with only two months to go to work through Cohen's issues that keeping the program as it is now would be the best bet for success. She should in particular try to get her toe jumps more reliable. As Rgirl noted, her jump landing did improve at Nationals even with the falls, with no awkward wobbles on jump landings during both the SP and LP, so maybe Wagner is helping Sasha.

Looking ahead, it is important that Sasha skate cleanly throughout the competition as to bolster her confidence in the future, similar to what Doggygirl said with her experiences with baton twirling. Sasha should also try to make sure that she does not fall during the SP, which is what cost her medals in the 2002 and 2003 Worlds (Even with a fall in the SP, I expect her to medal this year though). Unlike Joesitz, I think the name of the game, in either COP or 6.0 systems, will remain the jumps, with 6 clean triples with no other mistakes being the standard for the LP, with presentation second amongst the top ladies only if it's close or if there are mistakes galore. Given the somewhat sloppy skating throughout the GP, I don't expect too many ladies to match this standard (assuming that Sokolova, Kostner, Arakawa, Kirk, and Ando if they land their 3-3 combos do not otherwise skate cleanly [can't wait for Europeans to see Kostner and Sokolova's progress]). Until Sasha can gain some consistency, I think Sasha's prognosis to stand on the top of the podium will remain guarded, especially at Worlds where mistakes in any of the three phases are relatively costly.

InsecureEdge

What worries me about Sasha is that she may get tainted with a slogan that she 'splats' during the LP. This type of slogan has stayed with Sarah in that she 'underrotates' her jumps.

Both slogans are totally wrong and hopefully will cease in the future.

BTW, I believe Dortmund is in Saxony or Hesse just a bit south of Cologn (Koln). Haven't got time to check but I do not think mountains are involved.

Joe